NW scabs

[Tref]

This is an example of a great bunch of workers with lousy representation.

Amen to that!

 

[Tref]

Though it's not a major I did have an interview with Mesaba in Minneapolis this past week. The CP doing the interviewing (and this was verified by several others there including average-joe line pilots) went over the situation with us. As he said it, the cleaners are the only ones being lopped off. NWA wants to outsource the job cheaper than they can do it in house. That represents the 50-some percent of the union as the cleaners/wrench turners are in the same union. As I understood it, they don't want to fire any wrench turners, but do want them to take roughly a 1/4 pay cut.

Mesaba mechanics aren't walking, never intended to. F/A's and Pilots never intended to as I understand either.

That's all I know and it isn't much...but hopefully it will help.

Hi FF,

I don't think the info you were given was completely accurate. The mechanics and cleaners used to be in the same union (IAM) but a few years ago the mechanics split off (AMFA).

The reason NWA wants to lay off such a large number off mechanics is because they want to outsource all of the heavy maintenance and just have company mechanics for line maintenance (like Southwest and some other carriers do.)

Crappy situation all around.

 

[arthompson]

Cleaners and Mechanics are both AMFA, NWA wants to outsource Aircraft cleaning, cleaners make up 700 of the proposed lay offs

 

[canyonblue]

they want to outsource all of the heavy maintenance and just have company mechanics for line maintenance (like Southwest and some other carriers do.)

One glaring discrepancy is that we don't outsource out of the USA. NWA is sending MX out to Thailand. We also do much more in house work than NWA will admit in the press, usually takes an AMFA Rep to point it out. The biggest difference between Southwest, and many other carriers, and Northwest, is that our Mechanics don't do our pushbacks (except in DAL). With 3000+ flights a day, that is a lot less mechanics.

 

[2EASYPilot]

Not wanting to get into the political republican versus democrat thing but is it not the business guys buying those expensive seats on the red tails and the last time I read anything of any value, is it not the republicans that are supposed to be capitalists, i.e., representing business interests. Seems like the last few times I have looked at ticket prices folks like me were paying much less than those bad for the country, business (replublican) guys. And by the way, I have had very good travel experiences on NW and hope they get this sorted out quickly. It's bad for the industry and bad for the country !!!

 

[FlyingFisherman]

Hi FF,

I don't think the info you were given was completely accurate. The mechanics and cleaners used to be in the same union (IAM) but a few years ago the mechanics split off (AMFA).

The reason NWA wants to lay off such a large number off mechanics is because they want to outsource all of the heavy maintenance and just have company mechanics for line maintenance (like Southwest and some other carriers do.)

Crappy situation all around.

Thanks! I completely agree...horrible situation. I appreciate the info...I'm not trying to hide I don't know much on the subject just wanted to contribute what little I'd heard from what I was hoping to be a good source. Good luck to all.

 

[KigAir]

One glaring discrepancy is that we don't outsource out of the USA. NWA is sending MX out to Thailand.

Thailand? First I heard MX was going to the Dominican Republic, then I heard Mexico now Thailand. I have a question about the logistics of this. Are they importing the workers into the US or are they sending the planes there? Seems like a long way to fly a plane for MX.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I just found out from a -10 driver that they are sending some of the 10's to Singapore for the heavy checks... He said they had just repositioned the aircraft from there...

 

[dashtrash]

NWA is impossible to nonrev on. So, when I had to buy a ticket yesterday I voted with my feet by going over to the other terminal. Sun Country won my $. I know I'm not the only one.

 

[klhoard]

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Does anyone know if the scabs are currently on Per Diem and staying in Hotels?
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[mynameisjim]

If someone knew they would tell you that they are.

 

[Redmeat]

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Does anyone know if the scabs are currently on Per Diem and staying in Hotels?
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http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/4854907/detail.html

 

[Tref]

Thanks! I completely agree...horrible situation. I appreciate the info...I'm not trying to hide I don't know much on the subject just wanted to contribute what little I'd heard from what I was hoping to be a good source. Good luck to all.

FF,

Sorry, I gave you some bad info. I thought the cleaners stayed IAM, but they went with the mechanics and custodians to AMFA. Most of the rest of the ground workers are IAM.

I am pretty sure about out sourcing the heavy maintenance though. With a bit of research I found that AMFA at NWA represents approx 3500 mechanics, 790 cleaners and 75 custodians.

They wanted to lay off 53% of the AMFA members. 53% of 4365 is 2314, so alot of mechanics must be included in the lay offs to get to that number (1449 mechanics by my calculations.)

Tref

 

[exdashdriver]

DashTrash...you wouldn't happen to fly for Piedmont would you?

 

[ghostrider64]

Deli,

I appreciate your insight...My Union BTW does have a history. A history that if you don't fall in line you may just fall in a river with cement boots on More than likely to never be seen again

Know one has struggled more than our Local 1108 in the midst of a 4+ year struggle and being dealt cards that include ownership that have past and present Presidents as customers. Our hands are completely bound with the exception of flying our contract to the word. And we have a clause that allows us to honor any picket line without fear of retribution. Wether or not the mechanics followed an ill advised plan doesn't make the managements decisions right. Or honorable.

I have another NWA flight scheduled on Thursday. Perhaps you can help change my mind by having a friendly, welcoming and helpful crew meet the pax as we board and during our flight. In the past 4 years I've been met with the most disgusting service and crews, not only with NWA but all others, horrible attitudes abound. At least until yesterday when unbelievably a FA remembered how much coffee I drank and came to me personally midflight to offer me the first cup of a new pot. That was enough to give me fond thoughts of United for the month.

So you think that me flying as a passenger helps or hurts the mechanics chances at being employed by NWA?

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey GR
I am sad to say--REALLY sad to say-- that I think the mechanics are toast at NWA. By flying as a pax on NWA you can give the pilots a chance for our turn at bat. As I described in my earlier post, AMFA leadership was way in over their head with this management team. Instead of listening to the folks who had actually seen this company through some tough times and had the experience to deal with this draconian EMT, they pushed on with an agenda that was...crazy! I can't think of another word to describe it. It actually pisses me off because its like your wing man letting you down. They gave all of our causes a grave wound with their unprofessional, unthinking, etc, etc...you get the picture. So now we (the pilots)are not only battleing management, but we are put in a position of having to explain this complex situation to our brethern at the other airlines. AMFA put us in the same situation NWA mgmt put them in. There was no compromise between AMFA and NW Alpa. They told us it was there way or the hiway. Alpa predicted this outcome over a year ago. When our leadership (ALPA) tried to put the rank and file mech's on notice what was going to happen (and still leave time for a combined plan to work) our leadership was raped by their leadership and told to butt out. I do not know what the answer is but it is not an easy one.
I will tell you that it would be a different story if what AMFA was trying to do made any sense. NWA would be shut down right now whatever the outcome. AMFA was out maneuvered and the worst part was that everybody saw it coming except AMFA.

As far as your flight is concerned, I can tell you that in the DC 9 community, we are flying 5 and 6 leg days in a 1965 airplane (no glass/automation) going vor to vor with a flip flop radio. We still have microphones like Sky King and with our tight turn times, it is asses and elbows just to push all the buttons on the ground. Due to that we usually do not have a chance to chat with the pax coming on board, so we try to be extra friendly to the folks coming off. (unless I make a bad landing, and then I keep the door shut--which is often)
Our matronly FA's are not always the picture of friendliness. Our gay guys are nice if you act gay, but its not worth it for a cup of joe. Having said that, I really think they are just as nice as any other carrier, (I do a lot of offline commuting) and I have been treated pretty bad by individuals at Delta, US Air, Continental and American.
I hope that helps, I know its complex, but that is the industry we live in.

Deli

 

[Redmeat]

Hey GR
I am sad to say--REALLY sad to say-- that I think the mechanics are toast at NWA.

Deli

ANY union at ANY airline will be "toast" if other unions on property (ALPA) are willing to work hand-in-hand with SCABS!

 

[pilotyip]

again Deli deals in reality of the rest of the world, because there are not alot of other options. No union can turn a pig's ear into a silk purse.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Redmeat,
I know, thats why this particular situation sucks so much. It is so easy to infer that NW pilots are cowards and hung their heads and reached out and held hands with the SCABS because we are afraid of management. The natural tendency is to put this on NW pilots. But at what point does AMFA have responsibility for this? I see you are a 9 Capt and I do not know if you are with NW or not, but if so, you know there are some great mechanics that are on the street right now. But a union is like government. You get the government you deserve. NW ALPA told AMFA that there plan was NOT going to get the backing of ALPA. They told them of this outcome. AMFA refused to budge. So here we are. Holding hands with SCABS. Was shutting down the airline and becoming the next EAL the answer? If you are with any airline other than NWA you are probably saying "yes" because then we would be out of your way selling insurance, but I say no. The mechanics f@#$ed up in a very high stakes game. They are big boys and need to take responsibility for their failure. I hope that the real lesson that comes out of all of this is that the unions at any airline have to come up with an integrated plan early and not get divided off early. I really hope that this was an eye opener for the PFAA and that they are huddling up with ALPA for a combined plan.
How are the unions doing at Continental? The company seems to be a darling of the industry. There seems to be a future there. There is a lot of SCAB handholding there. And at Jet Blue, Air Tran, Spirit etc. The fact is we are in a changed world and it sucks. The changed world is comprised of "successful" airlines having no retirement, no medical, no vacation, min work rules, low pay, and lots of SCAB handholding. That is why I am going to start a deli.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Deli Guy,

Yours is a lone voice of reason and fact with regard to AMFA and ALPA at NWA. I have been saying for months that if ALPA were to back the wrongheaded AMFA plan, the airline would be LIQUIDATED. The ALPA charter is to enhance and protect the careers of Northwest pilots. Not AMFA, not PFAA, not IAM. The NWA ALPA leadership wanted to combine the strengths of all the unions on the property (two years ago) and present a plan that returned profitability to the airline while protecting the salaries, benefits, and careers of NWA employees to the greatest extent possible. AMFA gave them the middle finger.

Steenland has won the day and I believe AMFA is done like dinner at NWA. Recriminations against ALPA, PFAA, IAM, and the other unions at NWA under the guise of some kumbaya union solidarity pipedream are intellectually dishonest at best and self-serving at worst. I believe you are correct in your assessment that the most ardent voices railing against the "scab handholders" come from those who would benefit most from the demise of Northwest.

As for Ghostrider, there are many lessons to be learned here for your MEC and the negotiating committee. AMFA underestimated management's resolve and thought themselves unreplaceable and consequently pursued a contract that was off-the-charts unrealistic given the economic conditions at hand. Yours is a unique labor dispute in this industry. Nonetheless, I think your membership (especially the 5%), should be careful about criticizing the attitudes of a battered and weary major airline work force.

 

[Redmeat]

Deli Guy,

Steenland has won the day and I believe AMFA is done like dinner at NWA.

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[Dizel8]

'There is a lot of SCAB handholding there. And at Jet Blue, Air Tran, Spirit etc."

Sorry Bub, but not many scabs at jetblue, if that what you are insinuating. Being non union versus crossing a picket line is two completely separate things.

As for NW ALPA, you clearly know more than those of us who are not there. It is a sad situation and having scabs working your airplanes must truly suck.

Having said that, I cannot help but wonder, if NWA management would have pursued the same course of action, had they not been so sure the pilots would cross. Sadly, they are not done yet, sounds like they are lining up the crosshairs on the F/As next, already training "replacement workers" on NWA metal.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Dizel 8,
The "Sorry Bub, but not many scabs at jetblue" is like saying "there are only small turds in our carton of ice cream" if they are there it taints everybody. I know an ex EAL scab who is on your property. I am not insinuating that you have or ever will cross a picket line. Which is my point. There are scabs at jet blue, and some on this board would say you are holding hands with scabs. You can't help it. It is not your fault. It is the way the corporation is set up and you are there to fly airplanes and make a living. Your corporation is another "success story". I think it is going to be the model of the industry. It is also modeled on the rest of the business world.
As far as NWA knowing whether we would support AMFA.....Again, we were in a position--created by AMFA....where there was no common ground. 2 years ago we were in a position to put together a mutually supportable plan. AMFA loudly and publicly pointed to how far apart ALPA and AMFA were as if we were the enemy! I am pretty sure NWA management could figure out how the landscape was contoured. AMFA conducted their campaign in a manner that was doomed to failure and it gravely wounded the PFAA and ALPA as well. This is my other point. This is way more complex than saying "NW pilots are crossing picket lines"
The PFAA is actually in a stronger position because they can ground the company. The leadership at PFAA is also out of their league. They are underfunded and out of touch. Their negotiating skills are void. They are dealing with Harvard Business/Law graduates across the table and they are being outmaneuvered as we speak. ALPA correctly recognized that the way to take these guys on was to get ALPA,AMFA,PFAA together 2 years ago and use our combined strength. Both PFAA and AMFA told us to piss off. Now everyone is out there on their own trying to do what they think is right for their union. I really hope ALPA and the PFAA get together at this point before it is too late. I know the guys at ALPA are professional enough to get over the "piss off" thing, but my read on the leadership at PFAA is that they would rather stamp their feet and make witty droll comments while knowingly rolling their eyes at the negotation table--in other words, pure drama for their members--than take needed action. I very much wish them luck but I think their future is dim.

P.S. Who is the hottie on your avitar? I do not like being locked up in the office late at night and coming across her picture. It forces me to go in and wake up my wife.

 

[jbucpt]

Hey Dizel 8,
The "Sorry Bub, but not many scabs at jetblue" is like saying "there are only small turds in our carton of ice cream" if they are there it taints everybody. I know an ex EAL scab who is on your property.....

isnt there a bunch of "scabs" at CONTINENTAL?? wait a minute, that cant be....their ALPA!

 

[anon]

Let's face it. ALPA doesn't care about scabs.

ASA has an EAL-scab as the chairman of the ALPA Security Committee. Whats worse is that the ASA MEC knew about it and still appointed him to that position.

All this talk about blacklists, etc. is just nonsense. ALPA cares only about dues. If you want to pay the dues, you're in. Your past history doesn't matter.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey jbucpt,
I wrote this above:
"How are the unions doing at Continental? The company seems to be a darling of the industry. There seems to be a future there. There is a lot of SCAB handholding there. And at Jet Blue, Air Tran, Spirit etc. The fact is we are in a changed world and it sucks. The changed world is comprised of "successful" airlines having no retirement, no medical, no vacation, min work rules, low pay, and lots of SCAB handholding. That is why I am going to start a deli."

I still don't know the history of how ALPA allowed that to happen at Continental. But to me it shows that we are like the old wooden ship sailing crews who did not recognize that those steam powered boats were going to impact their standard of living.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Anon,
I think you nailed it. As much as I have defended NW ALPA, I think they are a necessary evil. I think the benifits out weigh the weaknesses but there are some glaring weaknesses!

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . . "there are only small turds in our carton of ice cream" . . .<snip>. .

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I'm no marketing major, but I don't think I'd put that on the front window of your deli!!
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[theo]

Airbus, Canadair, Embriar etc will keep pumping out airplanes and letting them go to startups for cheaper and cheaper and there is only so much airspace. There will be plenty of 20 year olds who would love to do your job cheaper, and your employer would love to hire them.

ALPA and all the mainline pilots can continue to ignore this fact or stop the 15 yr slide and integrate the small jets into the fleet.

I have seen countless comments saying that integrating small jets into mainline fleets will somehow stop the downward pressure on wages for the industry. I still don't see how that will work. Do you think that the wages will automatically raise after such an action? The pressure on wages comes from the low fares that exist in the industry. It seems to me that until the costs are less than the revenue, the downward pressure will continue. I don't think those that say raise fares are getting it. If you raise fares and your competitors (LCC's) don't you have even less revenue than you do today. Don't kid yourself into believing that the small jets are your problem, they are not. The competition (LCC's) are the problem and until the industry adjusts to that fact it appears turmoil and givebacks will have to continue. Sad but inevitable.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Same Ol' Blah blah.....

Glad to see guys like Deziel and Deli Guy steer this thread to fairness and reasonability. Enigma always helps... Oh yeah and leave Tony C. alone too...he speaks to the issue.

Now, for the rest of you whiny uneducated girls..... Get informed. Use the the matter between your head....constructively. There is nothing worse than a bunch of stupid dues paying ALPA members.. Why? Becuase they pay thier money and think their commitment to thier fellow pilots is done. You can't go to your religious house pay your tidings and expect to gain the benefits. You have to read the book, listen, particpate, etc.... A little servitude helps... alot....

Stupid pilots....our worst enemy. Just fly your trip and go home. That is where you are at your best....

And let's address this scab talk. Throwing around the scab term doesn't intimidate the educated. It just marks the ignorant. The smart men know what is and isn't a scab. Got Netflix? Watch Matawan. You'll see James Earl Jones' character make the statement "I've been called alot of things.. even nig***, but I've NEVER been called a scab."

So after you pay your dues, fly your trip, listen to the crewroom clowns you come home and post on flight info. Brilliant.

The issues are multi faceted. There are no silver bullets. If you spend 5-10 minutes educating yourself then you will come up with nickel and dime answers......

This AMFA strike is critical to all unions, becuase if managment wins it will only get them addicated to union busting. And when they come after us, they will at first divide and conguer the dummies and the educated.

Let's talk about ALPA. And remember DW is a NWA pilot. These guys have been working the issue day in and out for years. They have history, lawyers, advisors, politicians and a democratic process. Then along comes a "fly my trip and go homer" with all the answers.

If I were managment and I wanted to break ALPA I'd start with the ignorant flightinfo crowd. It's like Apollo 13, when Swigert called the spacecraft a piece of sh1t and Haise said this piece of sh1t is gonna take you home.

AMFA is on strike. Those guys are now outside looking in. They no longer have a place at the Table of Policy. ALPA does everything it can to keep a seat at the table where the decisions are made.

I have my issues with ALPA. As well as the US Gov't, church, company etc.... But before your slam ALPA and all its faults (cause it has them). Look in the mirror.

Get educated, get informed.

One of the dark truths at the heart of free-market capitalism: the unblinking willingness of those in power to crush--physically and spiritually--those who work.

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