NW scabs

[Dizel8]

Deli,

I am sorry, but you cannot compare the "infamous few", who has manged to slip through the cracks at other airlines, with having an entire union displaced by scabs.

I understand that the situation is a multifaceted issue and that AMFA has it issue with other unions, most notably the IAM, who wrote a scathing letter, which in so many words said Fk off.

I have little doubt though, that based on NWA management offer, AMFA had no choice but to walk, further, I think NWA management wanted them to. This plan, according to the company, started 18 months ago and they went so far as to talk to Bush, to say they did not want a PEB. He might have invoked one, but since NWA had the replacement lined up, it would not impact the "economy".

If the same guns were brought to bear on NWA ALPA, I am certain, that you would have walked as well. The offer given to AMFA could be alikened to NWA wanting all the nines flown by Mesaba and all Int'l flown by foreign crews, a 26% paycut and a loss of 50% of the seniority list. Those are essentially the demands given to AMFA, they didn't accept, as surely as ALPA wouldn't.

On other boards, I have seen the "wish list" that management has given to the F/As and it is similarily draconian. Replacement F/As are being trained as we speak on NWA airplanes. Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few NWA F/A's, who all indicated they would cross, should a strike occur. Quite frankly I was surprised, but it is not my choice to make and I simply bit my tongue.

What does surprise me, but probably shouldn't, is the lenght to which NWA will go, to create bad blood between labor and management, but that is probably for another thread.

 

[Redmeat]

Deli,

I am sorry, but you cannot compare the "infamous few", who has manged to slip through the cracks at other airlines, with having an entire union displaced by scabs.

I understand that the situation is a multifaceted issue and that AMFA has it issue with other unions, most notably the IAM, who wrote a scathing letter, which in so many words said Fk off.

I have little doubt though, that based on NWA management offer, AMFA had no choice but to walk, further, I think NWA management wanted them to. This plan, according to the company, started 18 months ago and they went so far as to talk to Bush, to say they did not want a PEB. He might have invoked one, but since NWA had the replacement lined up, it would not impact the "economy".

If the same guns were brought to bear on NWA ALPA, I am certain, that you would have walked as well. The offer given to AMFA could be alikened to NWA wanting all the nines flown by Mesaba and all Int'l flown by foreign crews, a 26% paycut and a loss of 50% of the seniority list. Those are essentially the demands given to AMFA, they didn't accept, as surely as ALPA wouldn't.

On other boards, I have seen the "wish list" that management has given to the F/As and it is similarily draconian. Replacement F/As are being trained as we speak on NWA airplanes. Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few NWA F/A's, who all indicated they would cross, should a strike occur. Quite frankly I was surprised, but it is not my choice to make and I simply bit my tongue.

What does surprise me, but probably shouldn't, is the lenght to which NWA will go, to create bad blood between labor and management, but that is probably for another thread.

Very beautifully stated. That was a good post.

 

[klhoard]

Deli,

I am sorry, but you cannot compare the "infamous few", who has manged to slip through the cracks at other airlines, with having an entire union displaced by scabs.

I understand that the situation is a multifaceted issue and that AMFA has it issue with other unions, most notably the IAM, who wrote a scathing letter, which in so many words said Fk off.

I have little doubt though, that based on NWA management offer, AMFA had no choice but to walk, further, I think NWA management wanted them to. This plan, according to the company, started 18 months ago and they went so far as to talk to Bush, to say they did not want a PEB. He might have invoked one, but since NWA had the replacement lined up, it would not impact the "economy".

If the same guns were brought to bear on NWA ALPA, I am certain, that you would have walked as well. The offer given to AMFA could be alikened to NWA wanting all the nines flown by Mesaba and all Int'l flown by foreign crews, a 26% paycut and a loss of 50% of the seniority list. Those are essentially the demands given to AMFA, they didn't accept, as surely as ALPA wouldn't.

On other boards, I have seen the "wish list" that management has given to the F/As and it is similarily draconian. Replacement F/As are being trained as we speak on NWA airplanes. Interestingly enough, I have spoken with a few NWA F/A's, who all indicated they would cross, should a strike occur. Quite frankly I was surprised, but it is not my choice to make and I simply bit my tongue.

What does surprise me, but probably shouldn't, is the lenght to which NWA will go, to create bad blood between labor and management, but that is probably for another thread.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. . .
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Now tell us, WHO IS THE CHICK!?!?!
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[Deli Guy]

Hey Diezel and Redmeat,
Ive said my piece on this and I respect your opinons. And no matter how much I blab about our (NW pilots) bad position, I am still going to work tomorrow and a scab is going to be looking over my log book. My position is that AMFA F'ed up over 2 years ago by signaling NWA mgmt that they were going to take a nutty course. When it became apparent to NWA mgmt that AMFA (and the PFAA for that matter) were not going to follow ALPA's plan, they (mgmt) started to put their own plan into action. If you look at it from an evil business stand point it played right into their hands. Again I ask, "at what point does AMFA get the responsibility for their actions?" also, why would AMFA bluff so badly? The pilots union can and will shut down the airline. The mechanics played their hand so badly, that management knew they were incapable of shooting blanks....hell they couldnt even get an erection.
Diezel 8, you started by saying there were not many scabs at jetblue. Now you are saying OK we have them, but now I must differentiate between the "whole mechanics union" (who dug their own grave) and the scabs working for your company that does not believe in unions at all and who holds no distinction between hiring a scab or a non scab--and now--I should rise up and smite evil by standing by the f'ed up mechanics union and allowing the whole company to end up like EAL so that your company can gain market share---and I'll just run my deli.
Again, it is way more complex than sitting in your position and passing judgement.
The wish list is the same wish list NWA has been giving us since 9-11. It is a starter. It may be an ender I am not sure. I guarantee there will be a drastic pay cut and cut in benifits so that we can compete with the "new world order" created by successful companies like Jetblue Airtran Spirit Independence Air etc. I really do not understand why, if you feel that our mechanics should be honored for their leaderships poor strategy, you do not understand that it is the mechanics pay scale and work rules at jetblue for example, that really caused the NWA mechanics headaches?
I look at this as just business. If it is demonstrated that a company can operate cheaper, all companies will try to follow that model or perish. Our company is trying to follow that model. It is up to us (labor) to
negotiate to our best advantage. You do not get what you deserve or what is morally right, you get what you negotiate. The mech's f'ed up. We are now at bat. We have the power to bring it to an end and mgmnt may try to implement its wish list, but they realize we are not shooting blanks and, with viagra, we can get an erection. They are also dealing with a union that has deep experience and deep pockets. NWA alpa is also realistic. They are not trying to get a letter removed from the alphabet. Alpa realizes that cuts are necessary and will try and squeeze all it can out of the situation. Is ALPA squeaky clean with out it's own ax to grind? No. So here we are. I am working at an airline on the edge holding hands with scabs. If you are at Jetblue you are working at a company on the rise that is using a business model that is killing the work model that you anticipated but will probably not (any of us) achieve. I may sound bitter but I really am not. I am making my plans accordingly. I think the Jetblue model will be the new face of aviation.


OK, Will you please tell us who the chick is?

p.s. Are they real?

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Rez O
Good post. The world has changed......again

 

[Publishers]

Like any organization, unions work on sales. In their case sales is qualified by membership dues and increased members. Just like in real business, a union can oversell their capability to negotiate a new contract. Big promises resulted in success.

Unfortunately these promises also resulted in them abandoning the very other organizations. Their tactics were aggressive and pissed off a good many other unions.

When put up or shut up came along, they had to strike or go back on all the promises.

 

[Redmeat]

Hey Diezel and Redmeat,
Ive said my piece on this and I respect your opinons.

Deli,

Not blaming you personally. You sound like a good guy. This is such a bad situation. It is hard to hear the media keep saying "Steenland says, His airline is running smoothly" after he just lopped off 4400 peoples lives, and replaced them with the scum of the earth. It is one of those situations where you want justice NOW, Dam_it. Having said that I do wonder if management would have continued on the "plan for success" if they were not exactly sure what ALPA would do in the event of an AMFA strike..

Anyway, good-luck on the Deli.

Rm

 

[Dizel8]

Deli,

How tender is your meat?

I see what you are saying, and AMFA is comprised of big boys, hopefully they thought it out. I certainly hope they prevail.

As for the non union enviroment at jetblue, it is that and it is what it is. Have jetblue caused the problems current at NWA, I think that would be stretching the truth. From a route perspective, I see few places indeed, where there is an overlap.

I never said, that there were no scabs at jetblue, if you thought that is what I said, then I must not have made myself clear. I think you have to make a distinction, at least I do, between the few, which I am sure is on the seniority list at NWA, as there pretty much is at all airlines and the many.

Is jetblue the way to do things, who knows? The better example, at present, would be SWA. They do compete with NWA out of DTW and they are unionized with good compensation, so are they the ones being the spoiler or NWA or is it simply NWA management? Case in point, would be the rhetoric at U, where management kept setting the goal post lower and lower as for as which company to compare wages to and who they had to match. Spiegel did a "great" job with: "They (SWA) are coming to Philly to kill us". Of course at that
point in time U employees, IIRC, were already paid less than their counterparts at SWA.

Heres to better times

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Redmeat,
No argument there. I wish NW Alpa had played a little better poker hand than they did. I am just tired of the pop up one line hits on NW pilots being semi- scabaceous without any background on it.

 

[Deli Guy]

Ok Dammit Diezel!!!
Who Is The Chick?

 

[Dizel8]

"Again, it is way more complex than sitting in your position and passing judgement"

I never meant to pass judgement, if it cames across as that, I apologize.

Remember that, when a jetblue pilot ask for the jumpseat

As for the young lady, well.................

 

[Deli Guy]

Diezel 8,
Are you the young lady? If so, I apologize for the wisecracks AND I have suddenly come to my senses and decided to agree with everything you have ever thought or said past present and future. If not, well....ok.....uh......Talk to you guys later

 

[psycho]

WOULD ALPA HAVE ACCEPTED THIS DEAL?

Please reread post #121 by dizel8. Nwa picked off the weakest union and all of the rest are next. Mgts offer to AMFA was a precursor to the Coup de grace. I could imagine the laughter in the boardroom had AMFA capitulated " Ha, we raped them and they begged for cab fare"

And sorry, that lame management excuse about protecting the mother ship from bankruptcy as a reason for no sympathy strikes is a little bit like begging the courts for mercy after murdering your parents because you are an orphan.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Ok Dammit Diezel!!!
Who Is The Chick?

thats not a woman its a man baby!

 

[Redmeat]

WOULD ALPA HAVE ACCEPTED THIS DEAL?


And sorry, that lame management excuse about protecting the mother ship from bankruptcy as a reason for no sympathy strikes is a little bit like begging the courts for mercy after murdering your parents because you are an orphan.

Good stuff man, good stuff.

(Sorry Deli)

 

[Morning Wood]

They didn't need to, the airline was shutdown.

And no work needed to be done on any airplanes? No MEL's to clear,
no cabins needed to be deep cleaned? Or was everyone told to
simply not show up for the whole two weeks?

 

[Publishers]

Look, they are not even getting symapthy from brother unions so why should they from you. There is almost unanimous agreement that the union screwed up.

The problem is the lemming one. Are you supposed to follow the sheep to the slaughter when you think the one leading them has its head you know where.

Managements don't run around and pick off unions that are well operated. If they get picked off as you call it, it is because the union was screwed by miscalualtion, overselling, etc. Sort of management issues.

 

[Lear70]

Look, they are not even getting symapthy from brother unions so why should they from you. There is almost unanimous agreement that the union screwed up.

So YOU would allow the union to sign an agreement that furloughs half its dues-paying employees and cuts pay for the rest to less than it costs to support their families? That's not a union screwing up, it's a union sticking to the basic needs of its dues-paying members.

Managements don't run around and pick off unions that are well operated. If they get picked off as you call it, it is because the union was screwed by miscalualtion, overselling, etc. Sort of management issues.

But that's EXACTLY what NWA has done... picked off a well-organized, well-run union with to-the-last-day commitment of its members. NWA has done this in the first environment in history that it was possible with waning union support in the nation, outsourcing at its highest level in history, and fear causing the other unions to retract into their self-deluding shells and ignore the BLATANT FACT that THEIR UNION IS NEXT.

Should cleaners make $40,000 a year? Probably not. Should mechanics make $60,000 a year? Absolutely. True, AMFA's original proposal was a pay raise, but the last-ditch effort from AMFA WAS A CONCESSIONARY AGREEMENT! But Northwest made unreasonable demands, knowing the union wouldn't sign, and therefore walked AMFA right into a carefully-orchestrated path towards union breakup, bankruptcy, and pension cutting... for ALL its employees... but I've been saying NWA was going to do this for about 2 years now.

 

[Publishers]

If I thought that the net result would be that all my members would be out, I sure would. Secondly, this is also the result of combining labor forces with different skill sets and interests because you want the dues and numbers to be credible.

 

[Redmeat]

If I thought that the net result would be that all my members would be out, I sure would.

53% permanent job reduction to AMFA. 53% of AMFA equals a majority voting to strike. Do the math.