NPRM: 1500hr Minimum for Airline Pilots!

[Typhoon1244]

...most CIVILIAN pilots with 300-500 hours simply don't have the experience to make the jump from light piston twin to high performance transport category jet.

Ahem...in the middle Sixties, several airlines were putting civilians (with experience in nothing larger than an Aztec) with 300 hours in the right seats of DC-8's and 737's. Some companies were even running ab initio programs. And you know what? Most of them did just fine.

Many of them are now complaining about regionals hiring "unsafe" 300-hour civilians.

 

[TZFO]

Actually, restricting the pilot supply is a great idea. However you could shift the supply side of the graph and reduce airline costs by changing the age 60 rule to age 50. Therefore you clean out all the high-paid guys and hire more 300 hr pilots at $20/hr. In addition you could change the FARs so that a pilot can obtain an ATP at age 18 instead of 23 to increase the number of qualified "newbies" as the 50 year-olds fly off into the sunset.

 

[Guitar Guy]

TZFO - the thread starter wants to up airline pay by restricting the pool of qualified candidates. The portion of your post about mandatory retirements is in keeping with his wishes, but the part about $20/hr F/O's is the very thing he's hoping to stop. Avrojockey doesn't want to help the airlines by reducing pilot costs, rather he wants to raise pilot pay by squeezing out those at the low-end of the experience pole.

 

[414Flyer]

Here is a question. What if the regional was losing lots of pilots and was not able to fulfill its contracts to a major airline it was flying for, because it could not get enough pilots. Consequently, the major could drop them because of not being able to do the flights because of lack of flight crews. Would you still be in favor of that, even if it possibly meant big furloughs because of not enough crews?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

supply and demand. If the regional increases its pay and benefits than it can attract the more experienced talent.

If the FAA put a limit on airline hiring at say 1500TT and that regional was still unable to fill classes they would just have to make the package more appealing to potential candidates.

There is no shortage of qualified pilots out there --- just a shortage of quality jobs.

 

[Typhoon1244]

What if the regional was losing lots of pilots and was not able to fulfill its contracts to a major airline it was flying for, because it could not get enough pilots. Consequently, the major could drop them because of not being able to do the flights because of lack of flight crews.

For that matter, suppose Avro's plan raises regional wages to the point that they're no longer profitable. Then what?

 

[NJA Capt]

...in the middle Sixties, several airlines were putting civilians (with experience in nothing larger than an Aztec) with 300 hours in the right seats of DC-8's and 737's.

In the mid-60s, airlines were flying Connies, DC-6/7s, B727s, DC-8s, and Electras. The 737 didn't come out until 1967.

Those low time guys spent 9+ years at the engineers panel before they ever saw the right seat of anything, and when they did they brought a wealth of experience with them.

 

[wheelsup]

For that matter, suppose Avro's plan raises regional wages to the point that they're no longer profitable. Then what?

Raise ticket prices (across the board)? GASP!

There is no shortage of qualified pilots out there --- just a shortage of quality jobs

I totally agree. Although I think the problem now-a-days is no flow through to the bigger, better jobs. I talked to an ex-ASA captain who's upgrade time was 3 months (Pre-911) and he did that for a year or so and bingo - Delta mainline. People didn't mind spending a year or two groveling when they could see the light at the end of the tunnel, unfortunately now its just a train coming at you .

~wheelsup

 

[pilotyip]

Consumer demand for airline tickets is completely elastic. Raise the ticket prices and more people will drive or take the bus, or they will modify their vacation to visit Niagara Falls instead of Orlando. It will mean more money for fewer pilots. How many Capt.’s want to go back to the F/O seat so the guys on the upper half of the CA seniority list can make more money. DAL is pursuing the other strategy lower ticket prices and steal riders from the other majors.

 

[wheelsup]

What's the average total operating cost for a small regional a/c such as the ERJ/CRJ? I'm thinking it would be around $1500/hr after doing a little net surfing. This would include lease payments, crew, fuel, landing fees, storage, mx, etc.

Let's say you tack on an additional $20/hr for each pilot, accounting for an additional $40/hr increase in aircraft operating costs. Divide $1540/$1500 and you get an increase of approximately 0.0267%, which equates to 2.7% increase it operating costs.

Tacking on a 3% increase on ticket prices won't drive away people (IMO). Let's say an average ticket costs $500, the new price would be about $513. $13 won't buy your family a burger and fries at NJ's interstate rest areas.... I'd rather fly! And I'm sure for $13 (if it was across the board, everyone was doing it - which I know is impossible) 99.999% of the population would pay to not have to drive.

Now, I could be waaay off, but from the little research I've done it seems pretty close...

~wheelsup

 

[FurloughedAgain]

PilotYip,

I would agree with you if systemwide load factors didn't exceed 80%.

The airlines have gotten so wrapped around the axel with "yield management" that they have neglected to consider simple supply and demand. The solution is to consider both.

If load factor on a certain city pair (or even a certain flight) is exceeding 85% -- hey, guess what? You can raise the fare. Raise fares until load factor settles at between 70 and 75%.

 

[Freight Dog]

Consumer demand for airline tickets is completely elastic. Raise the ticket prices and more people will drive or take the bus, or they will modify their vacation to visit Niagara Falls instead of Orlando. It will mean more money for fewer pilots. How many Capt.’s want to go back to the F/O seat so the guys on the upper half of the CA seniority list can make more money. DAL is pursuing the other strategy lower ticket prices and steal riders from the other majors.

Sure it's elastic, but I highly doubt that people will just take the bus or drive.
Right now, you can get a transcon ticket for $200 rt, and you'll be on the other coast in 4-5 hours as opposed to in 4-5 days. How much would a Greyhound cost you? How much would it cost you driving instead? Believe me, any reasonable increase would not break the bank of most passengers.

It's absurd to think that if the airlines raised the ticket prices initially to levels required to break even or make a profit that the whole public would stop flying. That's like saying back in 1999 that if the gas prices ever hit $2/gal, that we'll all stop driving.

Airlines don't exist to be charities to the public that can't afford to fly.
How long can you operate a business in the red?

 

[BoilerUP]

I bet the airlines would instantly become profitable if the mandatory retirement age was dropped from 60 to 50. Combine that with a Part 121 requirement to have 1500 hours and you would instantly solve the problems of commercial aviation! But we all know ALPA would never allow their most senior, top earning, top dues-paying members to be forced out of the system, even for the "good of the profession".

I *really* wish some of "you people" would look at the quality of somebody's experience as opposed to the sheer quantity of it when judging their skill. While the intent of this discussion is good, the path to hell is paved with good intentions just like this.

Ask any of the captains at Chautauqua, ACA, Comair, ASA, or XYZ Airlines who were hired at or less than 500 hours what their opinion is. Ask the captains who are now flying with sub-1000hr pilots at Piedmont, Trans States, XJT and Mesa if the wunderkids who made it through training and to the line aren't as sharp as any other pilot.

If you REALLY want to limit the pilot pool, organize an educational campaign to counter the lies from Kip Darby that propagate the back of Flying Magazine. Demand to your DO and Chief Pilot that newhire training be stepped up and all spoonfeeding stopped. Get involved in the interview process and make sure no weak links make it through HR!

Supporters of this may not realize it, but you're screwing the younger, junior, upcoming pilots of the industry so that you yourself can benefit. You know, the same stuff you complained about when you were at the bottom of the seniority list. Simply disgusting.

 

[AvroJockey]

THIS IS GREAT!!!

This is the intelligent dialog that I’m talking about! There are many good ideas regarding this subject, and many clever rebuttals. At first I thought this tread was going to be hijacked by other’s mindless commentary, much like Madden on MNF, but it turns to the contrary!

I have many comments to the responses, but have a short overnight, so it will have to wait. Keep the ideas coming!

BTW. Those with the pointless banter better pray they never get furloughed, because they lack the intellect for any other profession.

 

[Atccfi]

You know, I don't have nearly as many hours as many of you high time pilots, but I hope my opinion is still somewhat valid. I don't know what the answer to this problem is, but I do agree with what wheelsup said regarding ticket prices. The only way to become profitable is to raise the prices. The whole problem nowadays is that everyone is competing to feed off the bottom. I started another thread that said that instead of lowering the prices, airlines should be raising them, and got blasted for it. How long can majors continue bleeding until they fall off one by one. Let me get ready to make a statement I know will infuriate a lot of people... isn't Southwest, or even the LCC in general, partly to blame for the low pay of profesional pilots? At the end of the day, when everyone is trying to match their bottom line prices, we are the ones who lose.... Airlines blame their record losses on record high oil prices....when the price of a barrel goes down, airlines won't be making more money, they'll just lower their prices to keep competitive... Like I said, I am not as experienced in the field and don't have an economics degree, but that's the way I see it....

blast away....

 

[Guitar Guy]

It's seems rather obvious that the airlines simply aren't charging enough for their seats. I do agree that raising the prices "a little" probably will raise airline revenues even if they would lose a few passengers. Part of the problem is that none of the airlines seem willing to raise fares even a little bit unless everyone else does so, too.

Of course, even if the airlines improve their revenues and go into, gasp, profitability, it doesn't mean that pilot pay will automatically increase. That's going to take bargaining and probably job actions (strikes) to occur. And then we're still back to an early discussion about whether or not raising the minimum flight level experience for an entry-level regional job would have a positive effect on pay levels.

 

[Flybet3]

You guys are so dome, helloooooo!!!!! this airlines are companies that want to make money. Like Guitar guy said. Even if they increase the price for their tickets, it doesnt mean we are all going to get raises! It just means the CEO is going to make more money, they are going to buy more Jets and are going to need to fill them with pilots at low pay. Why? b/c no high time, high paid pilot is going to take a low pay job. Everyone bitches about how low timers are getting into regionals! Weren't all of you 5000 hour guys one day 1000 hour pilots. You act as if you mothers SHOT you out of their PU$$!E$ with 5000 hours. We all had to pay our dues, wether it was to get to 1000, 2000, or 3000 hours! Some had to do it through flight instructing, freight dogging, part 91, or whatever the hell it took. So all you arrogant DICS!!! need to stop your crying about PFT, or whatever the hell you keep crying!. Unless you are military remember that you did PFT to get your commercial license, to get your instructor ratings! which therefor got you either a job at a regional or at a corporate. The regionals have always paid very very very low and always will. You talk to Major airline pilots that worked at regionals and they will all tell you stories of when they worked of when they all made 800 to 1000 bucks a months and lived with 5 other guys in a trailer. Nothing has changed. Nothing will ever change.

 

[wheelsup]

Nothing has changed. Nothing will ever change.

Unfortunately, things have changed. Regional airlines aren't so "regional" anymore with 50-90 seat "regional" jets being the norm these days. Back in the day (even 5 years ago) regionals, aka "commuters", were a quick way to upgrade, get your PIC turbine, and then book it to the majors or [insert desired job here]. The regionals weren't a place to go, chill for 5-10 years, and then, maybe then, have a shot at a larger airline - if you choose to leave the senority and QOL.

Also, 50 seat 'jets' didn't exist, it was BE99 and B1900 time, maybe some Saab 340's or Brasilia's to go around (remember Business Express? My first ever CFI went there). Those were the commuters, why should we get paid the same or similar rates to fly aircraft that go twice as far, twice as fast, and carry double the capacity. There was someone on the board here that said it well: Pilots will except low pay and management will dole it out as long as everyone sees the "regionals" as a stepping stone. And from what I noticed, regionals are rapidly becoming "career" type places with average tenure of over 5 years!

~wheelsup

 

[FR8mastr]

Please dont start comparing "buy your job" with getting your commercial ticket. If you dont know the diff. there is nothing I could ever say to clue you in.

 

[Flybet3]

Unfortunately, things have changed. Regional airlines aren't so "regional" anymore with 50-90 seat "regional" jets being the norm these days. Back in the day (even 5 years ago) regionals, aka "commuters", were a quick way to upgrade, get your PIC turbine, and then book it to the majors or [insert desired job here]. The regionals weren't a place to go, chill for 5-10 years, and then, maybe then, have a shot at a larger airline - if you choose to leave the senority and QOL.

Exactly, are all the majors hiring! NO! Are they all going to hire like in the past! PROBABLY NOT! It seems like now if you go to a regional you must plan to be there for a long time. Things arent like they use to be, where you went to a regional got the PIC went to a major. Not its, maybe pay 5000 grand for your instructor ratings and eat crap for a year maybe two. Or pay a bit more to get on with gulfstream, work for 8 bucks and hour (like most instructors) and maybe get on with a regional. Remember they still had to pass their interviews, just b/c they went to Gulfstream doesnt mean that they walk straight out to pinchnickle or one of the others.