NPRM: 1500hr Minimum for Airline Pilots!

[FurloughedAgain]

PilotYip,

I would agree with you if systemwide load factors didn't exceed 80%.

The airlines have gotten so wrapped around the axel with "yield management" that they have neglected to consider simple supply and demand. The solution is to consider both.

If load factor on a certain city pair (or even a certain flight) is exceeding 85% -- hey, guess what? You can raise the fare. Raise fares until load factor settles at between 70 and 75%.

 

[Freight Dog]

Consumer demand for airline tickets is completely elastic. Raise the ticket prices and more people will drive or take the bus, or they will modify their vacation to visit Niagara Falls instead of Orlando. It will mean more money for fewer pilots. How many Capt.’s want to go back to the F/O seat so the guys on the upper half of the CA seniority list can make more money. DAL is pursuing the other strategy lower ticket prices and steal riders from the other majors.

Sure it's elastic, but I highly doubt that people will just take the bus or drive.
Right now, you can get a transcon ticket for $200 rt, and you'll be on the other coast in 4-5 hours as opposed to in 4-5 days. How much would a Greyhound cost you? How much would it cost you driving instead? Believe me, any reasonable increase would not break the bank of most passengers.

It's absurd to think that if the airlines raised the ticket prices initially to levels required to break even or make a profit that the whole public would stop flying. That's like saying back in 1999 that if the gas prices ever hit $2/gal, that we'll all stop driving.

Airlines don't exist to be charities to the public that can't afford to fly.
How long can you operate a business in the red?

 

[BoilerUP]

I bet the airlines would instantly become profitable if the mandatory retirement age was dropped from 60 to 50. Combine that with a Part 121 requirement to have 1500 hours and you would instantly solve the problems of commercial aviation! But we all know ALPA would never allow their most senior, top earning, top dues-paying members to be forced out of the system, even for the "good of the profession".

I *really* wish some of "you people" would look at the quality of somebody's experience as opposed to the sheer quantity of it when judging their skill. While the intent of this discussion is good, the path to hell is paved with good intentions just like this.

Ask any of the captains at Chautauqua, ACA, Comair, ASA, or XYZ Airlines who were hired at or less than 500 hours what their opinion is. Ask the captains who are now flying with sub-1000hr pilots at Piedmont, Trans States, XJT and Mesa if the wunderkids who made it through training and to the line aren't as sharp as any other pilot.

If you REALLY want to limit the pilot pool, organize an educational campaign to counter the lies from Kip Darby that propagate the back of Flying Magazine. Demand to your DO and Chief Pilot that newhire training be stepped up and all spoonfeeding stopped. Get involved in the interview process and make sure no weak links make it through HR!

Supporters of this may not realize it, but you're screwing the younger, junior, upcoming pilots of the industry so that you yourself can benefit. You know, the same stuff you complained about when you were at the bottom of the seniority list. Simply disgusting.

 

[AvroJockey]

THIS IS GREAT!!!

This is the intelligent dialog that I’m talking about! There are many good ideas regarding this subject, and many clever rebuttals. At first I thought this tread was going to be hijacked by other’s mindless commentary, much like Madden on MNF, but it turns to the contrary!

I have many comments to the responses, but have a short overnight, so it will have to wait. Keep the ideas coming!

BTW. Those with the pointless banter better pray they never get furloughed, because they lack the intellect for any other profession.

 

[Atccfi]

You know, I don't have nearly as many hours as many of you high time pilots, but I hope my opinion is still somewhat valid. I don't know what the answer to this problem is, but I do agree with what wheelsup said regarding ticket prices. The only way to become profitable is to raise the prices. The whole problem nowadays is that everyone is competing to feed off the bottom. I started another thread that said that instead of lowering the prices, airlines should be raising them, and got blasted for it. How long can majors continue bleeding until they fall off one by one. Let me get ready to make a statement I know will infuriate a lot of people... isn't Southwest, or even the LCC in general, partly to blame for the low pay of profesional pilots? At the end of the day, when everyone is trying to match their bottom line prices, we are the ones who lose.... Airlines blame their record losses on record high oil prices....when the price of a barrel goes down, airlines won't be making more money, they'll just lower their prices to keep competitive... Like I said, I am not as experienced in the field and don't have an economics degree, but that's the way I see it....

blast away....

 

[Guitar Guy]

It's seems rather obvious that the airlines simply aren't charging enough for their seats. I do agree that raising the prices "a little" probably will raise airline revenues even if they would lose a few passengers. Part of the problem is that none of the airlines seem willing to raise fares even a little bit unless everyone else does so, too.

Of course, even if the airlines improve their revenues and go into, gasp, profitability, it doesn't mean that pilot pay will automatically increase. That's going to take bargaining and probably job actions (strikes) to occur. And then we're still back to an early discussion about whether or not raising the minimum flight level experience for an entry-level regional job would have a positive effect on pay levels.

 

[Flybet3]

You guys are so dome, helloooooo!!!!! this airlines are companies that want to make money. Like Guitar guy said. Even if they increase the price for their tickets, it doesnt mean we are all going to get raises! It just means the CEO is going to make more money, they are going to buy more Jets and are going to need to fill them with pilots at low pay. Why? b/c no high time, high paid pilot is going to take a low pay job. Everyone bitches about how low timers are getting into regionals! Weren't all of you 5000 hour guys one day 1000 hour pilots. You act as if you mothers SHOT you out of their PU$$!E$ with 5000 hours. We all had to pay our dues, wether it was to get to 1000, 2000, or 3000 hours! Some had to do it through flight instructing, freight dogging, part 91, or whatever the hell it took. So all you arrogant DICS!!! need to stop your crying about PFT, or whatever the hell you keep crying!. Unless you are military remember that you did PFT to get your commercial license, to get your instructor ratings! which therefor got you either a job at a regional or at a corporate. The regionals have always paid very very very low and always will. You talk to Major airline pilots that worked at regionals and they will all tell you stories of when they worked of when they all made 800 to 1000 bucks a months and lived with 5 other guys in a trailer. Nothing has changed. Nothing will ever change.

 

[wheelsup]

Nothing has changed. Nothing will ever change.

Unfortunately, things have changed. Regional airlines aren't so "regional" anymore with 50-90 seat "regional" jets being the norm these days. Back in the day (even 5 years ago) regionals, aka "commuters", were a quick way to upgrade, get your PIC turbine, and then book it to the majors or [insert desired job here]. The regionals weren't a place to go, chill for 5-10 years, and then, maybe then, have a shot at a larger airline - if you choose to leave the senority and QOL.

Also, 50 seat 'jets' didn't exist, it was BE99 and B1900 time, maybe some Saab 340's or Brasilia's to go around (remember Business Express? My first ever CFI went there). Those were the commuters, why should we get paid the same or similar rates to fly aircraft that go twice as far, twice as fast, and carry double the capacity. There was someone on the board here that said it well: Pilots will except low pay and management will dole it out as long as everyone sees the "regionals" as a stepping stone. And from what I noticed, regionals are rapidly becoming "career" type places with average tenure of over 5 years!

~wheelsup

 

[FR8mastr]

Please dont start comparing "buy your job" with getting your commercial ticket. If you dont know the diff. there is nothing I could ever say to clue you in.

 

[Flybet3]

Unfortunately, things have changed. Regional airlines aren't so "regional" anymore with 50-90 seat "regional" jets being the norm these days. Back in the day (even 5 years ago) regionals, aka "commuters", were a quick way to upgrade, get your PIC turbine, and then book it to the majors or [insert desired job here]. The regionals weren't a place to go, chill for 5-10 years, and then, maybe then, have a shot at a larger airline - if you choose to leave the senority and QOL.

Exactly, are all the majors hiring! NO! Are they all going to hire like in the past! PROBABLY NOT! It seems like now if you go to a regional you must plan to be there for a long time. Things arent like they use to be, where you went to a regional got the PIC went to a major. Not its, maybe pay 5000 grand for your instructor ratings and eat crap for a year maybe two. Or pay a bit more to get on with gulfstream, work for 8 bucks and hour (like most instructors) and maybe get on with a regional. Remember they still had to pass their interviews, just b/c they went to Gulfstream doesnt mean that they walk straight out to pinchnickle or one of the others.

 

[Flybet3]

whatever granddad

Please dont start comparing "buy your job" with getting your commercial ticket. If you dont know the diff. there is nothing I could ever say to clue you in.

Hey grandpa, this is not 1960 anymore. I know many many instuctors that buy multi-engine time to get ahead b/c to build multi-time as an instruction is just eternal. All my instructors bought more than half of their multi time. To me thats the same as going and buying flight time in a beech 1900.Everyone is buying a job to a certain extent, so bite me.

 

[FR8mastr]

congratulations go buy your job its the same thing, Like I said there is nothing I can say.

 

[wheelsup]

THIS IS GREAT!!!

This is the intelligent dialog that I’m talking about!

Sorry man. It was a good discussion ...oh wait, there's that "ignore" button .

Not its, maybe pay 5000 grand for your instructor ratings and eat crap for a year maybe two.

I make $30k+ working 5 days a week, 8-10 hours a day as a CFI. And I've been doing it now for about a year (got this job 6 months ago)...now upwards of 1400TT and 150 multi. Full benefits, etc. And I never had to buy an ounce of multi time...or a job. I'm sorry you feel you have to.

isn't Southwest, or even the LCC in general, partly to blame for the low pay of profesional pilots? At the end of the day, when everyone is trying to match their bottom line prices, we are the ones who lose

I've been reading the book Nutz! lately which is a biography of SWA. In it, they mention that Southwest isn't always the lowest priced airline, but their marketing department has done such a good job ingraining this in peoples' heads they automatically believe it. I don't travel SW for cheap fares, however - I travel because we'll leave on time and arrive early, normally non-stop. And their pilots make more (especially as weighed as 737-only fleet) that the majors top-earners on their biggest equipment.
LCC's only serve select markets, and most of the smaller communities have to rely on the mainline 'regionals' and EAS - something SWA will probably never touch.

How come other business's aren't like this? I don't know much about the other industries, but I'm sure they're just as cut-through but you never hear labor complaining. Maybe it's because we're all educated "blue-collar" (re: union) workers, and we think for ourselves?


~wheelsup

 

[Flybet3]

I make $30k+ working 5 days a week, 8-10 hours a day as a CFI. And I've been doing it now for about a year (got this job 6 months ago)...now upwards of 1400TT and 150 multi. Full benefits, etc. And I never had to buy an ounce of multi time...or a job. I'm sorry you feel you have to.


150 Multi in 6 months...sounds great my friend. Well either way, you ready to take a biiiiiig paycut in another year or so, once you get enough multi to go to a regional.

 

[Typhoon1244]

In the mid-60s, airlines were flying Connies, DC-6/7s, B727s, DC-8s, and Electras. The 737 didn't come out until 1967.

Yeah...I meant to say mid- to late-Sixties.

Those low time guys spent 9+ years at the engineers panel before they ever saw the right seat of anything...

Two-thirds of my father's newhire class at Eastern was under twenty-three. None of them met the requirements to get an F.E. ticket, so they went straight to the right seat of the Convair 440 and DC-8 until they were old enough. The same thing was happening at United and National.

Remember, those years were critical for airline hiring. The W.W. II generation was hitting age sixty all at once, ans the major airlines were hiring darn near anybody who could handle flying an airplane. And it worked because the training was so good.

Experience is great, but it isn't the only thing that matters.

 

[belchfire]

Whatever...they need to be looking at a
NPRM about 10 hrs rest...in the hotel, not
from the airport! Non reducable!

dimtwits! I would rather fly with a well
rested new guy than a tired veteran. That
would mean that I was well rested too!

 

[propsare4boats]

You talk to Major airline pilots that worked at regionals and they will all tell you stories of when they worked of when they all made 800 to 1000 bucks a months and lived with 5 other guys in a trailer. Nothing has changed. Nothing will ever change.

The problem with that statement is, that was years ago...our pay never went up with inflation. Don't you think it's rediculous when a manager at a local video store starts at 36,000 a year and a pilot starts at 16,000.

Also, I was hired with 2000 hours, I made just as much as the pilot hired with a wet temporary multi certifacte and green behind the ears. So the pay isn't necessary related to experience yet what we are willing to except.

Like pay for training at airlines.... if people would stop doing it then airlines would have to come up with a better plan. But the trouble with that is it seems you always have that one guy/girl willing to whore themselves out!

 

[propsare4boats]

Ah sorry, but you lost me.
Once you said you wanted ALPA to get involved in something, I tuned out.
Alpa is nothing but a bunch of monkeys f*cking a football.

The best thing to happen that isn't realistic would be for the regionals to have a Union to represent our best interest instead of just the majors.

For example Comair and Delta both Alpa whose interest do you think Alpa is protecting....

 

[100LL... Again!]

The problem:

Many very low-time pilots are very competent. However, low time pilots are increasingly being selected due to their abilty to pay rather than ability to fly.

Therefore, to stop people from buying their jobs (the race-to-the-bottom future, as I see it), we need to create a fair weed-out.


To all of the blathering masses that spout hyperbole about "how about we only hire military pilots"???? or, " How about we require 20/20 vision ???

Here is why you are TOTALLY OFF-BASE:
A 1500 hour weed-out does not discriminate with anywhere near the arbitrary nature of a military-only criteria, or some ridiculous requirement like 20/20 vision only.

ALL pilots can reasonably be expected to atttain 1500 hours. Not all of us can be military pilots. Not all can have 20/20.

Require all airline pilots to HOLD an ATP. There - that's not too much to ask, is it? You are an airline pilot flying a transport-category aircraft. An ATP is a reasonable requirement.


Maybe there are a lot of skilled 300 hour pilots. There are also a lot of them that are pushed through training. Let's not kid ourselves here. Even though the 1500 hour requirement would not do much for safety, to be honest, it would be the end of large numbers of pay-for-your-job crap.

There are not very many people who can afford to PFT all the way to 1500 hours, are there?

 

[Typhoon1244]

I would rather fly with a well rested new guy than a tired veteran. That would mean that I was well rested too!

Amen, halelujah! Nothing sucks worse than having the nods in the middle of the ILS to 26L in ATL at six A.M...or so I've heard.

 

[AviatorTx]

Flight time has nothing to with qualifications. I was flying patrols the in left seat of a P-3 off the coast of Vietnam with less than 400 hours total. Military pilots routinely check out as A/C's in C-130's, C-5's etc with less than a 1000 hrs of flight. So the military pilot with 1300 hours of MEL turbine in a C-130 could not be hired but the civilian with 1500 hours VFR C-150 time would be more qualified? Besides hiring minimums are also redefined based upon Market conditions. When hiring is hot, the competitive minimums are refined to ensure an adequate pool of potential candidates.

I agree with you. BUT... There is a huge difference in the "weeding out process" between getting a military flight slot, and getting hired at a regional.

Unless your Dad is a senator, being a member of the golden sperm club is not going to get you a military flight slot. There is a big difference in getting a flight slot for an active duty F-16 unit, and Gulfstream.

If the regionals would hold the pilot applicants to the same standards the military did, I would be happy taking 300 hour guys on.

 

[AviatorTx]

Dito!! What about all the pilots with less than 1000TT that XJT and Eagle have hired. They both have hired a lot of low timers over the past year and a half. The better half of those have no turbine or 121 time!!!

It shows.

Some of us XJT captains are getting tired of flying single pilot ships.

 

[Tank Commander]

To be you one day........6000+ and have your knowledge...

 

[100LL... Again!]

Anyone who compares a 300 hour mesa grad with a 300-hour military pilot should have their a$$ thoroughly kicked. There is absolutely no comparison between the quality. I'm not ex-mil, but I will gladly agree that the US military trains pilots MANY times better than some certificate mill.

 

[Tank Commander]

You are right, Its called disipline, and I don't think you could kick my ass, so tone it down little man.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Yes Sir Capt Sir

 

[100LL... Again!]

Then I'll look around until I find someone who can kick it.

 

[Tank Commander]

Tell them to bring a lunch......

 

[MECH]

For the last 6 plus years I have had the opportunity to train new pilots at my airline. I have noticed that it really doesn't matter what the pilot has done before. As any flight instructor will tell you it is all up to the individual. Some people are just naturals and some have to work a little harder. I have to say the same thing to a pilot with 10,000 hours and to a pilot with 700 hours; aviate, navigate, communicate. The worst student I ever had was a pilot that had flown in the North East flying a Piston twin. He was a terrible pilot. On the other hand, some of my best students were ones that only flew night checks. The debate over low time, high time, military, flying checks or flight instructor will go on for ever. It is all up to the individual. There is no right answer.

Perhaps the FAA, like the American Medical Association, should be more selective in awarding Commercial Pilot Certificates.

 

[Alchemy]

Some of us XJT captains are getting tired of flying single pilot ships.

Oh, god.