NPA BoD endorses last-minute T.A.

[Lear70]

anyone have a scoop on how much we are talking about on the pay rates. Also, a comparison on 1st year at some other airlines would be helpful.

1st year's bad enough with the pay cut for new-hires to "industry average" or $38.50, whichever is lower...

The big problem is years 2-6, where every F/O on property will fall during the duration of this Agreement. Here's the summary I did for negotiations in D.C. which included all Major Airlines except cargo carriers:

Year ........ Industry Average ....... AAI Proposed Rate

1 ................. $ 40.44 ................... $ 38.50
2 ................. $ 72.99 ................... $ 63.48
3 ................. $ 82.83 ................... $ 68.29
4 ................. $ 87.39 ................... $ 74.68
5 ................. $ 94.29 ................... $ 77.48
6 ................. $ 99.98 ................... $ 80.43

These rates are BEFORE any pay cuts in the new Last And Final Offer given in exchange for getting BACK "scheduled block or better" (core block). If you included cargo carriers, that "industry average" goes up by about $4 an hour 1st year, $7 an hour each year thereafeter.

Upgrade is now at 3 years. This time next year (2008) it will be at 3 1/2. The year after that (2009), 4 years. The year after that (2010), 4 1/2 years. The year after that (2011), 5 years. That's the amendable date (3 1/2 years), so by the time we get close to another agreement (2 years of negotiations), it'll be 2013, we'll be sitting on 5-6 year upgrades for guys hired this year.

All that assumes no large changes in aircraft delivery slots and/or mergers/acquisitions.

So, figure out whether you want to be an F/O on the industry's 2nd or 3rd LOWEST pay scale for the next 5 years of your career, and/or upgrade into some of the most draconian reserve rules you've ever seen at a major airline.

I'm not interested, is anyone else?

You never, ever, give up work rules... takes too much negotiating capital to get them back. Negotiations 101... a class our NPA folks evidently missed.

Yes, Yes, No. Still the way I'm voting without industry AVERAGE F/O rates and work rule changes back to AT LEAST current book.

 

[PCL_128]

You guys need a union, preferably ALPA, on the property. This is rediculous.

If this entire process over the last few months hasn't taught this pilot group that ALPA is necessary, then the entire pilot group is blind. An independent union simply can't do the job.

 

[Joey Bayonne]

This is crazy... Not only are they trying to take away quality of life and bring us to the botom of the pay scale list, but they are successfully taking away our right to vote. First the TA that we could never vote on, then the last and final offer that gets pulled, now this... Who knows what's next? We can't even get to vote on anything before it's taken away and amended!

 

[Pancho]

We need to start an immediate decertification drive for the NPA and push for ALPA to come on board. This latest round is over the top, wholesale insanity. We are paying the NPA huge bucks to work for the company, not us. That is all these last few rounds have been, pandering to management. The NPA is certainly not looking out for the best interests of the pilots who are paying out the a$$ to be at best misrepresented and at worst lied to, cheated and screwed over by our own "brothers!" I know there are many here who have been unhappy with ALPA in past lives, myself included. I feel the bulk of the problem rested with DW the previous leader. We should all be willing to listen to what the new regime at Herndon is saying and doing.

 

[PCL_128]

We need to start an immediate decertification drive for the NPA and push for ALPA to come on board.

Hold up a second. No need to decertify. Then you leave yourself unprotected while you try to bring on a new union. You can simply merge the NPA into ALPA. Lots of unions have done it before, including FedEx (FPA) and Continental (IACP).

 

[twepilot]

18 years 38 days till I can kiss this crap good-bye..

RV

 

[Lear70]

Hold up a second. No need to decertify. Then you leave yourself unprotected while you try to bring on a new union. You can simply merge the NPA into ALPA. Lots of unions have done it before, including FedEx (FPA) and Continental (IACP).

Correct.

Everyone needs to get a copy of the bylaws and download it - available from the NPA website. It's only 24 pages or so, not a hard read at all.

ANY member can bring a petition for vote by the pilot group, just like the recall petition. Get 15% of the pilot group to sign the petition and it goes to pilot vote. Period. Not like ALPA bylaws where the MEC (Bod) has to agree to put it to vote, you get 15% of the pilots to petition for it and it goes to pilot vote. Period.

Similarly, an ALPA drive would be accomplished in almost the exact same way, except the RLA has a set of rules used to accomplish that goal.

I'm not a big ALPA cheerleader, but something has to change. The lack of professionalism has me extremely aggravated, the 5th version of the T.A. in 3 months notwithstanding...

 

[JOEBOYPILOT]

I think this is a case of bait and switch.

Lets CNX the voting, during the voting, on the NEW OLD TA (???) OH! Then lets vote again on the NEW NEW OLD TA (????)

Why dosn't the NPA just make this more confuing then it already has to be! I forgot looks who's incharge. Hence the YES_YES_NO VOTE!

Can we just stop for a sesond let the dust settle and then continue negotations with a fresh new look (ie new BOD).

 

[MGT3]

Job one is to get AP recalled and stop the bleeding. Then we can have an open debate on whether to remain independent under new leadership going a new direction or to seek out a national union such as ALPA.

We need the opportunity to let our voices be heard and see where the membership is with an actual vote. Hopefully it will come back NO and we can see where the chips fall.

Every pilot in the bottom 75% of our senority list should vote NO on this TA (I can not speak for the top 25% but I hope they vote NO as well.) The FO rates are unacceptable, and no one can rely on a quick upgrade to ease the pain, so I would hope we have a 50% NO vote automatically.

GT

 

[Pancho]

On a different note, has anyone else noticed that the longer we hold out, the better the Last Final Offer(s) keeps becoming? We are working under a pretty good CBA that is amendable (a.k.a. remains in effect until we vote in a new CBA.) Why are we in any kind of hurry to jump on any of these ridiculous offers by the company? Especially, when the deal keeps improving with time. The company says the new agreement will increase their pilot costs by 15 million (or whatever the number of the week is.) If this is the truth, then why are they in such a big hurry to get us to sign this LLLFO instead of continuing to drag their feet as they have for so long and saving more money? ASA's negotiations have been in progress for around five years now. They have been begging to get released so they can enter into self-help but the mediator will not release them. It seems like management has overplayed their hand and time is now in our favor. We've waited a long time and are now impatient, management is counting on this and will use it against us if we (and only we) let them. We need to steal a play from SK's playbook and drag our feet a little. There is nothing JL, SK, KG, our mediator MT or anyone in the union can do about us slowing things down a little bit by continuing to vote no until we get what we originally set out to get in these negotiations. We cannot allow management or our own union to lower our extremely reasonable expectations with these insulting TA's and their threats and intimidation. There are so many airlines either negotiating or preparing to negotiate huge advances in their own contracts. It will suck big time to sign a concessionary POS and watch all of our brothers get big gains while we are stuck as bottom feeders (with a Mesa quality contract) for seven years (or more) and our management team takes huge bonuses and pay raises that should have been ours.

 

[DonVerita]

its still block or better...the door thing is not an issue anymore (to me) now that core block is gone.

RV

What?

Am I reading you correctly? Are you saying that a concession is acceptable?

That's up to 6 minutes per flight of lost pay. Why on Earth would you say that "the door thing is not an issue anymore"?

3 years we've waited and this is the best our NC and BOD can come up with? Apalling!

Send a crystal clear message to Management...vote this POS back-to-book T/A down bigtime and recall the leadership. Then as an added bonus, decertify NPA and get ALPA on property with John Prater personally delivering the ratification letter to Company HQ.

Enough is enough already. We ARE major airline pilots. It's time we started getting the pay and respect we deserve. To do that, all AAI pilots will have to stand shoulder to shoulder united on this. Period!

 

[twepilot]

you read correctly. The door close issue is only a player if you over block that particular segment. The combination of door close, core credit, and average day correlated to a substantial hit. Core credit and the average day are rumored gone. I can live with the door issue.

RV

 

[Pancho]

Why are we choosing to "live with" anything?

 

[snuba]

Why live with the door close concession. What did we get in return? NOTHING!! This was what I was worried about when this crap TA got voted yes by the BOD. Everybody is using the TA as a starting point and not our current contract. Stop doing that!!

 

[1Speedbird]

You need to get rid of your negotiating committee now! Vote no and fire the NC. That is just unbelievable. By the way I hope you are aware of Mike Tossi's background. He was the FO rep in PHl for Usair. He would give away whatever he thought it would take to keep AAA in business until he retired. I am saying he would give away the store no questions asked. I have no dog in this hunt but if you guys accept this you're crazy. Your NC must be former EAL! Thats the only way I can make sense out of this.
Sorry if I am a little blunt on this but you guys are a good company with good profit margins and should share in the success.
I truly wish you the best of luck.

 

[snuba]

Unfortunatly this is another play by AP and group to get 51%. It appears that our union is working for the company and not us. This whole process has been a joke.

 

[The Victors]

Are all you air tran guys feeling ok? You look a little SICK. Yes, a little sick. Maybe you ALL should take a few days off...........?

 

[Citrusflyer]

Maybe if we hold out (ala Midway Gates, and Midwest) these guys will just keep bidding against themselves.

Other than that I don't know how many times I will have to keep calling in to vote YES YES NO! But I'll do it daily if that is what it takes.....

 

[easydoesit]

I cannot believe what a weak union I have fallen into. I have only been here for six months and am outraged at how these leaders are conducting themselves. I know ALPA is not perfect by any means, but they sure as heck did a better job where I came from.

They said that the ONLY reason for recommending no was "core block and average 4.5 pay". Are they trying to tell us the rest was ok? Who are these people anyway and are they really pilots? Are they puppets from the company? Wow!! WE HAVE NO UNION LEADERSHIP BOYS AND GALS. OUR MONEY IS DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR US. HOW CAN A UNION THAT IS NEGOTIATING WITH A PROFITABLE COMPANY GIVE US THIS KIND OF CRAP???

WE NEED ALPA!!

 

[EMBATP]

no concessions, no way, no how....


throw the bums out....