NPA BoD endorses last-minute T.A.

[twepilot]

great post Hal...

RV

 

[Pancho]

Hal,
I greatly appreciate what you are saying. I am jealous of the relationship you have between your union (pilot group) and your management team. Heck, for that matter I'm just plain jealous of your management team having accomplished all that they have and still treated their employees like human beings. We unfortunately do not enjoy that kind of rapport with our "management." I'm not saying ALPA is a panacea but it would be an improvement for us in our current situation. It appears to me that the in house union only works if management is willing to work with us, not steamroll us at every opportunity. If ALPA shows up here then JL and SK have no one to thank but themselves for driving us to it.

 

[PCL_128]

On another note. Bringing in ALPA will not necessarily solve all your problems. They are better than IBT, but if you have the same leadership in place it is no better than what you have.

Not really true. Even with the current incompetent leadership, at least we would have more resources and services at our disposal with ALPA. At the end game of negotiations, ALPA typically sends a small team of lawyers to assist the negotiating committee, along with someone from E & FA to cost things on the spot. The NPA doesn't have close to the resources to provide that sort of support. Thankfully we have Seth Rosen, but he's just one guy. I'd much rather have a team of ALPA's best lawyers looking over our scope language than just Seth.

ALPA national is in it to make money off of your dues.

Common misconception. A majority of ALPA's 41 member carriers actually cost the Association more than they pay in in dues. Only the largest legacy carriers are able to support their own costs plus send extra money to National. The extra that they bring in is used to subsidize the other carriers that can't cover their own costs. The idea that ALPA only represents carriers to "make money" is absurd. If that was the case, ALPA would drop about 80% of the carriers that they represent and just stick with the big guys.

They provide services to the membership, for a price. They do have better resources and training, but it's still up to your local. If it stinks, the whole will smell also. National will sign off on anything. ALPA is overrated.

It's certainly true that who you elect at the local level is extremely important, but I'll point you to the CAL MEC for a perfect example of how that's not the only thing that matters. When CAL was independent with the IACP, they had some truly great leaders running things. The problem is that they simply didn't have the resources needed to make large steps ahead for their pilot group. You can ask pretty much anyone from CAL ALPA that was also involved with the IACP, and they'll happily tell you how inferior their "student council" was compared to ALPA, despite the fact that many of the same volunteers were involved in both.

I think the problem is that many members don't really have an idea of just what ALPA makes available to them. If every member had an opportunity to go to the Herndon and DC offices to see the resources at their disposal and to meet the die-hard trade-unionist staff that works for them, then very few members would ever claim that they could do fine without ALPA.

 

[FIREMAN]

"have not talked to a single soul who would not vote for MB if given the chance"


I would not vote for MB or the other two guys that are running. I hope we geat a larger group to choose from.

 

[twepilot]

the old adage "careful what you wish for" comes to mind..

RV

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I would not vote for MB or the other two guys that are running. I hope we geat a larger group to choose from.

Second that.

 

[PCL_128]

I hope we geat a larger group to choose from.

How 'bout it Lear70? Ready to throw your name in the hat?

 

[md83drvr]

The company will get what they want. They will continue to add little "improvements" to the TA until it get 51%.

My guess it that the NPA will show us how things have changed from the previous TA's but will not point out the concessions from current book.

There is no way the NPA could have fix this TA. It should have been voted down months ago. There is no reason for us to accept a concessionary TA.

 

[j41driver]

Anything other than what we have now is a no vote period.

What we have now is an old contract. Anything other than improvements on what we have now should be an automatic NO vote.

 

[DougCorp-9]

So what are you all prepared to do when we vote this POS down?

 

[SLEDNECK]

So what are you all prepared to do when we vote this POS down?

Vote in new leaders. THen, it's either memrat, or ALPA. THat's the only way to protect us from somebody else coming in and "LOA-ing" every thing we already have away. I'm surprised he hasn't done it already before he gets the boot. The NPA bylaws don't protect the group enough from somebody with their own private agendas. As far as strike threats, which is how I read your post, I think we're a ways from that still. THere's plenty of time to clean up this mess before then.

 

[MINIME]

Keep fighting guys. I hate to say it but it sounds like all your union leadership is a management, checkairman wannabe. Don't be surprised when the smoke clears if they all get lucrative positions for themselves within the company.

I'm sorry to say but those payraises alone don't even reflect the concessionary payrates of even Frontier. Legacies' paycales are higher now and will only get higher as time goes by and they start getting some of their mula back. You guys deserve that same success. AAI is a VERY profitable entity. They can afford it.

As someone else stated before, ALPA is only as successful as the local MECs. Right now with your current leadership you'd be in a similar situation even with ALPA on property, I believe. Your local MEC is what matters. It sounds like they need to go and go fast. They appear to be clueless and are abusing your pilotgroup's negotiating capital.

 

[Texan2IP]

Enough is enough already. We ARE major airline pilots. It's time we started getting the pay and respect we deserve. To do that, all AAI pilots will have to stand shoulder to shoulder united on this. Period!

That is the biggest problem I see at AAI, you guys; 1) Don't stand united in the face of a concessionary contract, and
2) Mgt doesn't treat you like the professionals you are and you just take it!

Do yourselves and the rest of the industry a favor, stand up to JL and all the other yahoos in the front office!

 

[Steeler Fan]

But I won't ask you to do anything until you read it. Then I'll come back and bug you again... k? :beer:
...

Sure. I promise to keep an open mind.

But I might sneak a Cowboys sticker into your kit bag when you're not looking (won't actually put it on the bag, just a hint). ...

Thanks, I'm potty training a new dog, and that sticker should help alot!

Vote well, my friends. Vote well...

By the way, how are you feeling after the whole thing with the forward cargo bin? Hope all's well.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Anything other than what we have now is a no vote period. Don't go back wards folks. As far as ALPA, remember what they did to Eastern to benefit Delta. What we need is a strong front office. Alan has got to go along all the others in that office.

I thought you said you weren't going to post here! It's like a monk breaking his vow of silence. The word is, like tatoos, that you can't stop with just one.


*Thanks for the JS home last week.

GO STEELERS!

 

[Lear70]

Thanks, I'm potty training a new dog, and that sticker should help alot!

Now that's just harsh.

When they win the Superbowl this year and you're wearing your Cowboy's hat in the cockpit, I'll remind you of this thread...

By the way, how are you feeling after the whole thing with the forward cargo bin? Hope all's well.

Kneck and shoulder still ache like crazy, especially after the torture specialist... ummm... I mean, physical therapist is done with it, but it's getting better - thanks for asking.

I'm in ATL right this second trying to jumpseat home. Just saw their doc, put me out for one more week pending another doc appt. Should be back 1st week of Sep, nothing on my schedule until the 7th anyway after tomorrow's trip.

Getting a little stir-crazy at home, ready to get back to work. Should have plenty of time to analyze the new T.A. though and update the rebuttal for everyone to pass out bulletpoints.

Will probably add reasons to recall AP at the beginning for those on the fence, especially after my phone call yesterday where I found out that Allen PERSONALLY gave up the window/aisle seat at System Board, not Laura or Sal.

 

[mnboyev]

Why GNS movement... why couldnt they negotiate brake release ?.... close the door.. pop the brake .. bingo on the clock.... Screw GNS movement... How many of our peers actually get paid on GNS movement? I hear USAir is one of the only few ? Not sure at all on that one...

and the FO rates... well... still too low...period.

Scope... well... dont get me started...

Looks like the LFO 2 will be a shot at the old farts to get 51 percent.

What about duty ?

I guess we'll just have to wait to see what little 'bones' they tossed at us....

 

[IronCityBlue]

What is the second last final offer's scope clause?

 

[Lear70]

Unlimited Turboprops still in it, they capped the 79-86 RJ's at a hard number of 25 instead of tied to ASM, but still left the 51-78 seat RJ's tied to ASM's which is a combination of a LOT of airplanes.

Bad, bad juju.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Unlimited Turboprops still in it, they capped the 79-86 RJ's at a hard number of 25 instead of tied to ASM, but still left the 51-78 seat RJ's tied to ASM's which is a combination of a LOT of airplanes.

Bad, bad juju.

I agree. And there is no hard number of outsourced anything. Once they get one, they WILL get more. 25 is just a good starting point. If they get 25 but want 10 more, does anyone really think they will ramp up another fleet type at the mainline just for those 10? This will very soon equal unlimited 86 seat jets, which will soon include E190's with a first class seating 86 total. Outsourced to the lowest bidder(s) and your 717 rates/job security will soon follow. I hope you guys don't fall for it.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Food for thought

Considering the fact that management lost out on both Midway and Midwest they are really trying to get a deal done (albeit at 50% +1). For the fifth time we have had an about face on a TA/Final offer/Last and final offer/TA2/etc.

IMHO if this deal falls through these guys will take a hit from the shareholders and institutional investors (read: loss of bonus money). Even if management were not the party who called everyone back to the table they gave a little each time....sort of like upping their own bid for Midwest.

While I have not read the latest version, and will before voting, I will not vote for a concessionary TA in any way, shape or form!

At this point even IF (and it's a big IF) TA2 is worthy of a yes vote I still think the recall has to go through! These guys will not stand up to any "re-interpretation" of a new contract, and we need people in there who will! And if the TA fails then we need some intelligent fighters in place to take it to them during what will undoubtedly be very interesting times!

 

[Eagle757shark]

Also keep in mind FOs, that this new TA could be as a result of a possible upcoming merger. Remember how our BOD/NC tried to sell us out for the Midwest merger. Most of us feel that if AirTran is still in the buying mood, that there is a good chance it will be Frontier. Now think about it. Frontier has between 50-60 airbus' about the number of 737-700s AirTran has coming. If this merger does come about and there is some type of exchange of aircraft, UPGRADES will come to a trickle! So those 3 year upgrades may turn into 6-10 year upgrades given the age of most AirTran and Frontier pilots. Don't fall for the carrot. We must fight for a contract that is equitable and rewards all of the pilots here at AirTran. (Frontier's FO pay beats AirTran's FO pay by a long shot). So you Frontier guys stay after us just in case our executives are cooking up a marriage. By the way, with all these profits.....where is our profit sharing?

 

[easydoesit]

I will tell everyone right now that if this thing gets voted in, I am outta here. I have been here for six months and I guarantee there will be an exodus of newly hired FO's if this thing goes. They are already having a hard time getting highly qualified people. I have been told firsthand that not too many people are interested in AirTran at Airinc conferences.

I came here thinking this was a better place, with some good morale. It's on the verge of going down the tubes. On the other hand, if we get some good leaders in there, it could go the other way.

I'm Praying...

 

[Afterprop]

RECALL AP . . . RECALL AP Again ! ! !

Will probably add reasons to recall AP at the beginning for those on the fence, especially after my phone call yesterday where I found out that Allen PERSONALLY gave up the window/aisle seat at System Board, not Laura or Sal.

uke: Thank you AP . . . I really appreciate you PERSONALLY volunteering your time to screw your bro's.

:angryfire Guys, at the roadshows, please take the opportunity to ask AP what he was thinking ? ? ?
I can already hear it now, "I did not give up the window/aisle seat." GMAFB ! ! ! :angryfire

Rant Over.

 

[HalinTexas]

Hal,
I greatly appreciate what you are saying. I am jealous of the relationship you have between your union (pilot group) and your management team. Heck, for that matter I'm just plain jealous of your management team having accomplished all that they have and still treated their employees like human beings. We unfortunately do not enjoy that kind of rapport with our "management." I'm not saying ALPA is a panacea but it would be an improvement for us in our current situation. It appears to me that the in house union only works if management is willing to work with us, not steamroll us at every opportunity. If ALPA shows up here then JL and SK have no one to thank but themselves for driving us to it.

ATA Managment and Pilots don't have that great a relationship. Morale is pretty low at ATA.

I'll say it again. It doesn't matter what union you're in, it matters who you elect to lead you. It matters what opinions you pass up to those that represent you. It matters what kind of he11 you can raise when they screw up!

 

[TV9Driver]

where is the new proposal? i can't find it anywhere? is it posted somewhere or are we just supposed to take their word for it and vote? God, this place is a friggin' joke.... I'm voting Hell No just for the principle that this is a completely unprofessional outfit.

 

[Murphy]

I changed my vote tonight from YES, NO, NO to YES, YES, NO. Back away from the table and let the pilot group speak....just once.