Not Mad at Comair

[InclusiveScope]

Dont go blaming ALPA. This is the fault of each individual pilot group for not negotiating scope for themselves.

I disagree. Individual pilot groups cannot do this alone. That defeats the whole concept of COLLECTIVE bargaining. If you have 3 or 4 or 5 independant groups bargaining (or bidding), this will be the result. Either change the ability for management to put flying out for bid, or except this as the new reality. Those are the ONLY two realistic options. Anything else is just "pie in the sky" idealistic rhetoric.

 

[InclusiveScope]

This is about the lack of outrage from the Comair pilots against the lack of help their MEC and company was providing, as done at the other sister DCI airlines. If they were not helping also, I could partially understand it, but the others DID help. Your timeline about what happened concerning our flying during the Comair strike was not accurate. You obviously don't recall what was happening externally---with what Bush actually said and our lawsuit loss. Those things actually happened. You neglected to state those things. You also forgot to state that we didn't step over the line and fly Comair planes, or fly new routes or extra flights. We did not. We couldn't cut flights---due to the lawsuit we LOST. We gave money to ALPA (along with everyone else) and hoped for the best. When krap came our way----COMAIR AND THEIR PILOTS DID NOTHING BUT ASK FOR MORE 70 SEATERS. Where am I wrong about that?

If you don't understand how this is a TOTAL FAILURE of collective bargaining than I can't help you. DAL, ASA and CMR all part of Delta Air Lines, Inc. We are all part of the same company. If one of us strikes against management and they are allowed to simply rebook the passengers on other flights within the SAME COMPANY, then we have lost. That takes away our most powerful tool and you can't even see that!

As far as ALPA allowing whipsawing----I thought you guys didn't want us meddling in your affairs? Which is it? DO you want us to bargain for you or not bargain for you? Also, why didn't you guys get better scope for yourself? You went for pay. You never got your own scope. And, you were mad that we got scope for ourselves, and in reality you needed it. Hmmmm.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I want us to bargain as a SINGLE BARGAINING UNIT! I don't want you to negotiate for me. As far as scope goes, I agree that we need scope. The CMR pilots have just achieved some scope. They achieved language that requires a minimum fleet size of 199 aircraft. Yes it cost them something, but it is a beginning and they are criticized for it.

 

[av8tor4239]

deleted...

 

[InclusiveScope]

Ther is no reason that any pilot group should have to sacrifice for scope or growth. It is not our job as pilots to assure aircraft fleet size or to assure growth. We are responsible for negotiating fair working agreements, but not resposible for running companies or creating scope!

av8tor,
WRONG! Without scope, the rest of your contract is WOERTHless! Scope is not free. "Fair working agreements" are meaningless if management can just farm out the work to another group who doesn't have as "fair" a working agreement. Maybe you need to talk with some of our ALG and PDT pilots who now work with us at ASA. They can tell you first hand how good the "best contract" is if you can't keep the work! Are you in denial or just naive?

 

[av8tor4239]

Inclusive scope... you are right.. I have deleted my post and apologize for my incorrect veiw point on the subject

Concessions for growth is totaly different than assuring scope in a contract negotiation...

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusive scope... you are right.. I have deleted my post and apologize for my incorrect veiw point on the subject

Concessions for growth is totaly different than assuring scope in a contract negotiation...

Av8tor,
It takes courage to admit a mistake. No apology necessary. I see a lot of myself in your passionate battle. I was just like you when I started working with ALPA 10 years ago here on the ASA property. I believed in everything ALPA said. Over time however, I have seen the dark side of this "union". It isn't all as at seems.

Without attacking each other, let's talk about the last part of your post here. You say that "Concessions for growth is totaly different than assuring scope in a contract negotiation"

I would disagree. Achieving meaningful "scope" will cost you something. It isn't free. At least the CMR pilots were able to protect what they have to do it. How would you achieve meaningful scope without paying for it? Not an attack, just a question.

 

[ASADriver]

Let's assume, for a moment, that it was a titanic mistake for Comair's pilots to approve the LOA. What does it mean. that so many pilots would jump off that cliff?

Does it mean that "regional" pilots are losing faith in ALPA's ability to protect them in todays industry? I've been thinking for some time now that ALPA may be in deep trouble. Maybe this is just the beginning.

And after watching what's happened to the Eastern strikers and the Continental scabs, I'm not so sure ALPA is worth saving anyway.

Good points. Did you know that we have a committee chairman here at ASA that is an Eastern scab? Continental has an Eastern Scab for an MEC Chairman. This "union" is morally bankrupt!

 

[av8tor4239]

Good points. Did you know that we have a committee chairman here at ASA that is an Eastern scab?

WHO?.. Are you sure?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Did you know that we have a committee chairman here at ASA that is an Eastern scab?

Yes. He's not very vocal about it, is he? When I found out there was a guy with that name on the scab list, I assumed it was somebody else. I was very disappointed when it turned out I was wrong.

He certainly seems, however, to have seen the light.

Continental has an Eastern Scab for an MEC Chairman. This "union" is morally bankrupt!

My favorite part is the way ALPA is now using its legal might to help defend the Continental scabs from the Eastern full-term strikers! And my dues are helping them! You could argue that I'm a traitor to my father and his fellow "rEAL" pilots for even being in ALPA.

I keep telling myself that it's better than no union at all...

 

[ASADriver]

WHO?.. Are you sure?

Yes. Security Comm. Chair. It was a big deal several years ago. We had to give him special permission to join ALPA since he was a scab.

 

[ASADriver]

Yes. He's not very vocal about it, is he? When I found out there was a guy with that name on the scab list, I assumed it was somebody else. I was very disappointed when it turned out I was wrong.

He certainly seems, however, to have seen the light.My favorite part is the way ALPA is now using its legal might to help defend the Continental scabs from the Eastern full-term strikers! And my dues are helping them! You could argue that I'm a traitor to my father and his fellow "rEAL" pilots for even being in ALPA.

I keep telling myself that it's better than no union at all...

While your at it, ask your father how well the rEAL were treated by the DAL MEC. Now we all know "the rest of the story".

 

[Typhoon1244]

While your at it, ask your father how well the rEAL were treated by the DAL MEC.

I can't speak for all of them, but I know of one Delta pilot in TYS who bitched to my dad in '89 about having to pay the strike assessment. Now maybe I'm overly sensetive, but that's just tacky.

Numerous Delta and USAir pilots in our area pledged their support for the Eastern cause, but when the time came, they were perfectly happy to let the Eastern guys jump in front of the train all by themselves. If they hadn't jumped in front of that train, if cooler heads had prevailed, if the Eastern pilots had done what Comair's pilots just did, there might still be an Eastern today is some form.

(This is pissing me off...I'm going to bed.)

 

[av8tor4239]

InclusiveScope:

I strongly belive that pilots are not responsible for the growth or demise of an airline. In other words, a pilot (or pilot group) should not have to take concessions to get new airplanes, or to "grow" the airline.

With that said, History shows that some scope can be negotiated within the boundries or shell of section 6 negotiations. It is the equivelent of negotiating pay or reserve rules or vacation, etc.

What I have a problem with is pilots drinking the managment KOOL AID and thinking the sky is going to fall if they dont guarantee new airplanes on property outside of negotiations. If management wants new airplanes, (If Delta wants new airplanes) they are going to get them.. If management (Delta) wants to IPO one of it's connection carriers (ASA or COMAIR) its is going to do it. Whether the pilots take concessions has nothing in my opinon to do with what the compay (management) is going to do when you are a wholly owned subsidary. To management concessions from a wholly owned subsidary are a bonus. In Delta main lines situation pilot concessions were necessary for survival, Delta mainlines situation is not comparable to ASA or COMAIR, not unitl we are running our own show (not owned).

In all of my ranting and raving about the comair deal, the comment most YES voters said was, "If we did not do this, we would fold, furlough, get spun off, etc". My question to them is, If you voted the LOA down, how do you know that you would have not gotten the airplanes.. Look at Flying Tigers in 1980...ASA 2003, this has been going on since deregulation.

There is a big difference between taking concessions for growth and negotiating scope into a contract.. and that is my point.

 

[av8tor4239]

Yes. Security Comm. Chair. It was a big deal several years ago. We had to give him special permission to join ALPA since he was a scab.

HOLY CRAP.. I AM DISGUSTED

 

[KingAirKiddo]

InclusiveScope:

I strongly belive that pilots are not responsible for the growth or demise of an airline. In other words, a pilot (or pilot group) should not have to take concessions to get new airplanes, or to "grow" the airline.

With that said, History shows that some scope can be negotiated within the boundries or shell of section 6 negotiations. It is the equivelent of negotiating pay or reserve rules or vacation, etc.

What I have a problem with is pilots drinking the managment KOOL AID and thinking the sky is going to fall if they dont guarantee new airplanes on property outside of negotiations. If management wants new airplanes, (If Delta wants new airplanes) they are going to get them.. If management (Delta) wants to IPO one of it's connection carriers (ASA or COMAIR) its is going to do it. Whether the pilots take concessions has nothing in my opinon to do with what the compay (management) is going to do when you are a wholly owned subsidary. To management concessions from a wholly owned subsidary are a bonus. In Delta main lines situation pilot concessions were necessary for survival, Delta mainlines situation is not comparable to ASA or COMAIR, not unitl we are running our own show (not owned).

In all of my ranting and raving about the comair deal, the comment most YES voters said was, "If we did not do this, we would fold, furlough, get spun off, etc". My question to them is, If you voted the LOA down, how do you know that you would have not gotten the airplanes.. Look at Flying Tigers in 1980...ASA 2003, this has been going on since deregulation.

There is a big difference between taking concessions for growth and negotiating scope into a contract.. and that is my point.

Av8tor4239,

I agree with you in theory. Even though I voted yes on this LOA, I am disgusted that my pilot group was put in this position. I do not feel that I am overpaid for the job that I do. From a financial standpoint alone, I will lose somewhere in the neighborhood of $24,000 from signing this POS. I doubt that you will find a single pilot on our property that feels that s/he is overpaid.

However, you have to look at the big picture here. There are literally thousands of pilots chomping at the bit to take our piece of the pie away from us. The threat, even before Fast-talking Fred came to Comair, was that the 700's would be consolidated into a single operation. Additionally, the former management indicated that eventually Comair would start to shrink as the Delta beancounters determined that it would be more cost effective to consolidate into a single operation or outsource to the contract carriers. I do not know if we would have received the growth aircraft anyway. History has proven that DAL is not willing to reward a "high cost" small jet provider (reference RFP 2003). In essence it came down to a gamble; sorry, but as a pilot I am used to evaluating risk and taking the safest course of action. This LOA, if implemented, assures us that we will still be around to fight the good fight in the future--hopefully the cards will be dealt in our favor when that time comes. In the meantime, we have assured that all current pilots have at least some mediocre job protection. As I stated in a previous post, if we'd have had a crystal ball that showed us the future, our decision would have been easy to make.

I am acknowledging that we may have made a monumental mistake. We just don't know at this point. Hopefully it has given your negotiators a realistic goal to shoot for in their discussions with management (again, a payrate blended between what you currently have and our frozen one plus our work rules is apparently good enough since the former head of DCI initiated this "growth proposal" based on that).

Best of luck. Remember that despite the rhetoric or your thoughts to the contrary, we really are on your side. Our goal is to keep the flying in the (dysfunctional) DAL, ASA, and CMR family. Hopefully we'll all be around in 5 years to look back on this day and learn from it.

Respectfully,
KAK

 

[DDpaysoff]

If you don't understand how this is a TOTAL FAILURE of collective bargaining than I can't help you. DAL, ASA and CMR all part of Delta Air Lines, Inc. We are all part of the same company. If one of us strikes against management and they are allowed to simply rebook the passengers on other flights within the SAME COMPANY, then we have lost. That takes away our most powerful tool and you can't even see that!





I want us to bargain as a SINGLE BARGAINING UNIT! I don't want you to negotiate for me. As far as scope goes, I agree that we need scope. The CMR pilots have just achieved some scope. They achieved language that requires a minimum fleet size of 199 aircraft. Yes it cost them something, but it is a beginning and they are criticized for it.

Agreed.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Yes. Security Comm. Chair. It was a big deal several years ago. We had to give him special permission to join ALPA since he was a scab.

Huh? .

 

[doh]

Would the EAL scab be your Central air safety chair or another chair?

 

[N2264J]

I keep telling myself that it's better than no union at all...

I am an RJDC supporter and have been a vocal advocate from the beginning.

In my view, ALPA is a good union under extremely bad management (and I'm not taking about airline management either - ALPA management). The kind of institutional brain damage that facilitates alter egos by driving airframes off the property and bid for flying schemes has shredded what little unity we had.

There are three (3) bargaining units on the Delta property. The Air Line Pilots Association doesn't understand the fundamental precept of unionism ie the only leverage we have is bargaining collectively. For example, after we filed the PID, the Delta MEC turned that petition into the "Comair pilots demand date of hire" lie alienating the Delta rank and file to this day.

 

[General Lee]

I am an RJDC supporter and have been a vocal advocate from the beginning.

In my view, ALPA is a good union under extremely bad management (and I'm not taking about airline management either - ALPA management). The kind of institutional brain damage that facilitates alter egos by driving airframes off the property and bid for flying schemes has shredded what little unity we had.

There are three (3) bargaining units on the Delta property. The Air Line Pilots Association doesn't understand the fundamental precept of unionism ie the only leverage we have is bargaining collectively. For example, after we filled the PID, the Delta MEC turned that petition into the "Comair pilots demand date of hire" lie alienating the Delta rank and file to this day.

You don't think that was the attitude? I saw it. I flew jump on an RJ and the older Captain told me he was going to retire (sooner than later---older man) a 738 Captain flying to Central America. For Delta. He believed that. That was the attitude.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[doh]

General,

Let's not side track this. Who's the scab?

 

[Ted Striker]

General,

Let's not side track this. Who's the scab?

Someone PM me with a link to the scab list and I'll tell you if it's true. NO, we're NOT posting it here!

 

[ASADriver]

Would the EAL scab be your Central air safety chair or another chair?

No, not the CASC Chair. The scab is chair of the Security committee (TSA,FFDO,Airport security,etc.)

 

[ASADriver]

General,

Let's not side track this. Who's the scab?

The Security Comm. chairman at ASA is a scab. One of many who are full fledged ALPA members. The CAL MEC Chairman is also a scab I believe.

 

[RJFlyer]

The Security Comm. chairman at ASA is a scab.

Are you sure? I know that guy (don't know his background though) - I checked the list, and there's a guy with the same name, but he's got a relatively common name...

Anyway, here's the scab list link: http://www.fracpilot.com/Scabs%20by%20Name%20May04.PDF

 

[RJFlyer]

The CMR pilots have just achieved some scope. They achieved language that requires a minimum fleet size of 199 aircraft. Yes it cost them something, but it is a beginning and they are criticized for it.

I'm calling BS on this one - the only "requirement" they achieved is that they'll get X number of aircraft by Y date, or they go back to the original PWA. That is NOT scope, nor is it a guarantee of growth.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

INCOMING!!!

Hey RJFlyer, can you do something about the furniture in the penalty box???

HMM

 

[shamrock]

Anyway, here's the scab list link: http://www.fracpilot.com/Scabs%20by%20Name%20May04.PDF

Holy crap, I think my friends Dad is the list.

RJ,

Send us a postcard from the Penalty Box.

 

[Typhoon1244]

RJ...end us a postcard from the Penalty Box.

If he goes to the Box for this, it's B.S. Posting a scab list should not be worthy of punishment.

 

[shamrock]

If he goes to the Box for this, it's B.S. Posting a scab list should not be worthy of punishment.

I agree, but I seem to remember one of the moderators stating that posting a scab list was punishable by a 5 minute major for unsportsmanlike conduct.