Not looking good at FLYi

[I.P. Freley]

And ACA was the only regional with enough balls to tell DADDY to take his wh@re rates and shove them.

I'll have to decline to agree with "post of the year" for this one, since it was ACA management... not the pilots... that decided to cut the leash. It has never been satisfactorily explained to me how the PILOTS did anything more than not quit when the company went solo. You didn't do anything "for the good of the profession" or anything altruistic like that. Many of you did of course get furloughed and that sucks beans, but you didn't put your head on the chopping block and risk anything (unless you were hired by another company after these events were put in motion and turned it down). Stop making it sound like the ACA pilots did anything more extraordinary than continue to fly what they were already flying, just with different paint and ID's.

Or... You can explain to me how it is that you accomplished something as a pilot group, and not as part of an entire company that tried to go it alone and worked hard to differentiate your product from the competition. I'm fully aware that this will be construed as flame bait, but I'd really like to hear an answer that makes sense and isn't based in some nebulous "our pilot group sacrificed all and tried to slay the giant, so we're better than the rest of you" argument.

 

[Always deferred]

I.P.- Your post isn't flamebait - you actually ask a valid question.

As only one former ACA/FLYi pilot, I obviously can’t speak for all, nor do I have the gift of eloquently conveying my point but I will do the best.

For the period of events that unfolded between late 2002-mid 2004, the ACA pilot group and ACA management, for lack of a better term, were on the same page on a lot of fronts. Did we do anything extraordinary as pilots? Perhaps. I wouldn’t go as far as saying the industry owes us anything but I also must say at times our group did its part by not contributing to the race to the bottom and displayed exceptional unity - something sorely lacking in today's pilot groups.

1) The Bain Process – We were the last group to cave to concessions for the United flying. Having been told by management and the union that going it alone (flyi) was the worst option, our only hope to survive as an airline was to retain UAL flying. This, coupled with the pressure of concessions already attained at MESA, AWAC, and SKYwest, are factors that contributed in my opinion to the TA passing. I was a Yes vote. Do I regret it? Yes and no. At the time I felt I was doing what was necessary to survive and fight another day. Looking back, they were trivial concessions – Wouldn’t have meant squat to the bottom line, yet would have affected my bottom line. Lesson Learned. Thank God they never went into effect.

2) The MESA Debacle – In October 2003, MESA made an unsolicited bid to acquire ACA and halt the FLYi project. Never did I take more pride in being an ACA pilot. From picketing (Make a Mess of Mesa), to lobbying, to even threatening walkouts, the unity our group displayed, coupled with the support we received from other airlines (as well as many good MESA folks) was very encouraging. What MESA was offering (or so JO said) was stability…guaranteed revenue instead of a risky plan where our jobs were not assured. Most ACA guys said they would rather lose their jobs than work for Johnny O. Many of us have. And I guarantee you many of us would rather have lost our jobs in the manner that we did - furloughed from a company attempting to stand on its own rather than be a slave to a master who would slowly dismember it.

3) The FLYi experience – The ACA pilot group could have pressured management into staying the course (i.e. feeder airline.) We didn’t. We gave management a vote of confidence in the form of minor paycuts and were able to garner a wealth of work rules improvement from them. To this day, I believe we still remain the second highest paid RJ pilots only behind Comair. I think you will find mixed reasons why our pilots chose the FLYi route – some to fly larger airplanes. Some for the risk involved. Some just because they hated the Regional airline mentality. But I think the majority of pilots wanted to go the route we did to be a part of something special in the history of the airline industry and have the chance to be different. That was my reasoning, as were the first reasons to an extent. I knew it would be long years before I ever saw an Airbus, but the chance to work for a company with its own identity was very appealing. And now 700 of us are part of the history we tried to make.

This is but one man’s opinion yet I feel that it resonates with the majority of the Blue Ridgers out there. Perhaps we didn’t do anything extraordinary, but we certainly did our part by not caving to the trend of the day and avoiding the race to the bottom. I have no doubt that any Captain with Pinnacle, or XJ, or CHQ, or Comair, or ASA, or Fedex, or Jetblue, or SKywest that flies with a furloughed ACAer, will see firsthand a representation of how professional and unified a pilot group can be.

~AD

 

[dojetdriver]

I'll have to decline to agree with "post of the year" for this one, since it was ACA management... not the pilots... that decided to cut the leash. It has never been satisfactorily explained to me how the PILOTS did anything more than not quit when the company went solo. You didn't do anything "for the good of the profession" or anything altruistic like that. Many of you did of course get furloughed and that sucks beans, but you didn't put your head on the chopping block and risk anything (unless you were hired by another company after these events were put in motion and turned it down). Stop making it sound like the ACA pilots did anything more extraordinary than continue to fly what they were already flying, just with different paint and ID's.

Or... You can explain to me how it is that you accomplished something as a pilot group, and not as part of an entire company that tried to go it alone and worked hard to differentiate your product from the competition. I'm fully aware that this will be construed as flame bait, but I'd really like to hear an answer that makes sense and isn't based in some nebulous "our pilot group sacrificed all and tried to slay the giant, so we're better than the rest of you" argument.

Always Deferred, you beat me to it.


You must not read very many posts on this whole matter. We, that being the pilot group at ACA, voted in a TA that would have made it extrememely difficult for MESA to operate had they acquired us (thats ACA) during a stock swap.

We, that being the pilots at ACA, voted it in with a 90% plus approval. Had we, the pilots at ACA, not done that, ACA would have been acquired by Mesa, flying planes around with a UEX paint job being slowly dismantled and broken up while Orenstein rode his Harley Davidson's around and touted about what a good manager/ CEO he is.

For the record, although I lost my job at ACA and miss alot of people there, I would not have it any other way either.

In my book, it soes qualify for post of the year

 

[I.P. Freley]

In my book, it soes qualify for post of the year

An acid-tongued diatribe calling other people whores and losers is miles away from anything that could be construed as "post of the year". Period.

Thank you, always deferred, for your thoughtful response. I was unaware of some of the things you brought up and it clarified the issue for me.

dojetdriver, do you not find it ironic that the ACA pilot group's maneuvering to keep Mesa off property is just as self-serving as any other pilot group's maneuvering? I understand fully that your company took a risk, one that hasn't borne much fruit as of yet, but in the end you accepted concessions to keep your jobs. You didn't do it for the good of the industry, you did it for yourselves. This did not, as the original post I responded to, take "balls".

I am not trying to kick Indy when it's down, far from it. I don't want anyone to lose their job, though of course I didn't want to see Indy succeed at the expense of MY job (one that I have since left, so I don't have a dog in this fight any longer). I appreciate that everyone was in on the project to create a new identity, to go it alone, and I understand how the group pulled together knowing that hard times were likely ahead. I understand why you don't regret that you were one of the casualties of "the plan" and that you were glad you were part of it. I even understand the bitterness towards Mesa.

BUT... There are many here who would wrap themselves in the cloak of martyrdom, you were holding up the bar, etc. etc. etc. That's just self-serving nonsense. Hold your head high for trying to fight the good fight, but showing such naked contempt for every other regional and exhibiting such well-developed sense of smugness can do nothing other create the very backlash exhibited in this thread. Calling others whores and losers is a superb ploy if you want everyone else to think you've gone off the mental deep-end and want to create animosity.

 

[dojetdriver]

I guess you didn't really read my post then, or some of the others. I don't remember calling Mesa whores or loosers, I do however take issue with the JO runs Mesa and treats his employee group.

Did you work for FLYI, UAL, who? It sounds as if you lost your job because of it. If that is the case, your job was lost long before FLYI was launched. It also sounds like you are one of those who has a sense of entitliment in this industry. I'm sorry, but I got news for you, but nobody in this industry owes anybody anything. It's a business.

Enjoy you new job, I'm enjoying mine.

 

[I.P. Freley]

I didn't say you called Mesa whores, but the original post I was referring to basically called EVERYONE whores and losers. It is you who brought up Mesa, or specifically JO, thus the reference.

And no, ACA going solo didn't cost me my job. Conversely, it actually made it (my prior job) more secure because we were replacement flying for United in IAD. Just to intercept what may be your next question, I didn't get shot down by ACA in an interview, either. I don't have anything against ACA, I've said that in other threads and even openly thanked the ACA crews who accomodated me in their jumpseats (pre-9/11) when I used them to travel to and from my then-girlfriend's pad in DC. I don't agree that Independence and their pilots should hold some special place in my heart, but that doesn't mean I'm bashing the company, the pilot group, or you personally.

Dare I ask how anything I've said indicates that I have a sense of entitlement? The only entitlement I think I'm due is to not have to listen to those Indy folks who think everyone else owes THEM something. I think you've got it backwards.

And yes, thank you, I AM enjoying my new job.

 

[ERAU2GIA]

An acid-tongued diatribe calling other people whores and losers is miles away from anything that could be construed as "post of the year". Period.

Like the 1000 other posts here with all you idiots calling whomever happens to have just gotten a new contract "whores and losers" is any better? You are part of the problem. I've read your ill informed opinionated posts against other pilots like Mesa, ACA, and others. Like you and your Stretch King Air are better than anyone else, ESPECIALLY INDY AIR PILOTS who are among the few to actually put their money where their mouth is? Right little man. Keep on dreaming. And enjoy that new job. There is a clean up needed on isle 9, by the way. Bring your mop please.

INDY AIR PILOTS ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MR

 

[rptrain]

I.P,

You always seem to get stuck on the same poorly-reasoned notion about FLYi pilots. Just becuase FLYi pilots didn't make the actual boardroom decision to start the new airline doesn't mean they weren't a huge and irreplaceable part of the puzzle.

Many FLYi pilots immediately thought that hanging out our own shingle was the best thing to do in regard to the United lowballing. They weren't just blindly following management. I can produce a FAQ from the ALPA roadshow during the Bain concessionary TA. One of the questions was "Why don't we just go out on our own?" As others have pointed out, both the company and the union discouraged this at the time, but it goes to show that the desire was always there.

More important for you to consider is the influence that a labor union does have over a company's decisions. Look at any annual report for any company. They will always mention labor unions as a factor affecting the business. If you can't get the pilots on board (metaphorically) it's nearly impossible to execute a plan. ACA pilots voted down an LOA regarding charter flying that would have radically altered the company's business model. Although management ultimately makes the final decision, don't kid yourself into thinking that a unified pilot group can't affect the outcome. I seem to remember United pilots being against the Avolar fractional idea. I'm sure their lack of participation influenced its eventual demise. Those with a better recall of history can cite more examples. If the FLYi pilots wanted to torpedo Independence Air, they certainly could have done so. Using the unified voice that others have described, they easily could have pressured management into a more stable return to United (at reduced income).

Finally, your claim that all the pilots did was "same job, different paint" is insulting. I'm not going to bother explaining, because it should be obvious. FLYi may still not make it, but if it weren't for the pilots' efforts, they wouldn't have made it 6 months.

If you don't want to hear some FLYi pilots getting all self-righteous, perhaps you should stop insulting them by claiming they didn't do anything.

 

[propsarebest]

ERAU2GIA vbmenu_register("postmenu_646851", true);
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 6

Aircraft Experience: C172, PA28, A36, PA44, B90, CRJ Sim
Flight Experience: Civilian
Ratings: PPL, IR, CPL, ME
Total Time: 425


HOW IN THE f^CK DO YOU CALL A SIM AN AIRCRAFT? PLEASE LITTLE MAN TAKE A FRIGGIN CHILL PILL, AND GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN. BECOME A DENTIST.

 

[I.P. Freley]

I've read your ill informed opinionated posts against other pilots like Mesa, ACA, and others.

I don't think you've actually read any of my posts, then.

Right little man. Keep on dreaming. And enjoy that new job.

Why thank you, that's very kind, I do enjoy my new job. I am also capable of making a point without being overtly insulting and resorting to pointless name-calling. Sorry, pal, no matter what your fan club says your post was no different from the thousand other whore/loser posts that you yourself referred to.

 

[I.P. Freley]

If you don't want to hear some FLYi pilots getting all self-righteous, perhaps you should stop insulting them by claiming they didn't do anything.

I'm sorry you're insulted. However, I don't think any overt action taken by your pilot group was motivated by anything more than your own self-interest. What I find insulting is the assertion (not necessarily YOUR assertion) that you did something for the good of the profession and that the rest of us should view it as such. Being unified and not fighting managment's ultimate plan, ditching out on United, does not make you heroes in my eyes though there are those here who certainly would have us think so, and it appears you are one of those.

 

[rptrain]

I'm sorry you're insulted. However, I don't think any overt action taken by your pilot group was motivated by anything more than your own self-interest.

wrong again. i'm furloughed (now out of the business), and as my brother always deferred said, i don't regret a thing. how many furloughees would say that about their experience? yes, i supported the FLYi plan just so my career could get shattered in my own self interest.

i don't need your respect to know we did the right thing.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Fine. I never said you didn't do the right thing. Call my assertions "poorly reasoned" I "always get stuck on" (meaning I brought it up what, once before?) all you want, it doesn't change the fact that you ARE looking for respect. I don't know if it's because you're looking for validation in light of the outcome of this experiment, but it's pretty clear that some of you want everyone else to think that you are somehow on a higher plateau than the rest of us... and yet it is I who is being insulting?

yes, i supported the FLYi plan just so my career could get shattered in my own self interest.

Which is EXACTLY what I meant by my earlier "martyrdom" comment, however cloaked in sarcasm it may be.

Gimme a break. You didn't support the plan because you knew you'd get furloughed and your aviation career would be shattered and knew you'd be "out of the business"... you supported the FLYi plan hoping it would work out and your lot would improve.

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

I can vouch for what AZ Typed said. As usual, FlyI tried to re-invent the wheel with it's Airbus operations. The most frustrating thing is the fact that we are the only airine out of 150+ operators that uses a manual paper-based w&b calculation. The FO basically takes the FEX written before every pushback because a bean-counter decided an automated system in a $30 million airplane did not make sense. Lots of fun when the gate keeps sending stragglers down a minute before push and the rampers throw more bags on at the last minute. Needless to say a lot of flights leave the gate late (and management wonders why.)

As far as training goes, however, the failure rate is unusually low for ACA (sorry, FlyI)

Temp Bulletins are issued only to be corrected a few weeks later (just to make your manual a complete mess.)

Now they are harassing pilots for calling in sick and actually mentioning it in the Daily Briefing Company propaganda rag.

That's why FlyI will never succeed. The same middle management we've always had.


PS: Fromage is obviously a troll. But you have to admit, from reading this and some other threads, he's one of the better ones. Not as mean-spirited at Mickey. BTW Mickey, you should listen to Coldplay's newest album -- it might make yiou a nicer person.

Mean-spirited??? I've just been pointing out the insane comments FLYi management has the brass monkeys to say in press releases. Judgeing by the way they have you doing your W/B, I would have to agree with your statement about FLYi never succeeding. But why is it not mean-spirited for you to say it....but it is for me??? Explain.

 

[MickeySlapnutz]

Typical pilot behavior. Everyone slams everyone else for something. Mesaba and CHT guys said Mesa pilots were selling everyone out when they didn't reach Comair rates. Then Mesaba didn't either and so they were wh@res to everyone not yet up for contract renewal. Colgan are scabs because they're stealing flying from Skywest. Skywest stole it from Coex so they're evil sellouts and scabs first. Now Comair took concessions for new jets so they're the current whores. And ACA was the only regional with enough balls to tell DADDY to take his wh@re rates and shove them. Yet here you losers are. Kicking the only pilots with ANY balls in this industry while they're down.

You people are sickening. Really. You'd cut each other's throat in about two seconds for one dollar more per hour or a jet with ten more seats. And then you'd turn right around and accuse your best friend of the murder. You disgust me. You'll all get what you deserve in the end for not sticking together. Welcome to Walmart losers!
MR

How many FLYi pilots had to pay for training before they were "hired" by ACA?
Lets see how this shakes out. If you paid one penny for training...then shame on you.

Did it take big balls to pay for a job? Or was it OK to "invest" in ACA in hopes of getting enough flying time to actually qualify for a job at the majors? Tell the truth now.

 

[Gateau]

So what if they had to pay for training? Every airline at that time had pay-for-training. Not everybody gets to go to the military, goose!

 

[ClubORD]

September 7, 2001 hire....no pay for training.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Based upon the experience of a guy I knew who went to ACA, I think PFT was dead by '99 at the latest. And Gateau is right, PFT was common in the mid-to-late 90's so holding that against someone is silly. Now anyone who did PFT in a year beginning with a "2" had better explain themselves, as just about everyone had eliminated their PFT programs by then...

 

[Gateau]

Well, almost, everybody.

 

[LearLove]

PFT ended at ACA in late Jan or Feb of 98, if I remember correctly. I know of someone that was in the 1/5/1998 class and he was one of the last classes to pay.