Not enough pilots out there?

[Amish RakeFight]

Dude?

Hey, at least he capitalized them.

 

[Cloud F9]

>> Bus drivers eat free at McDonalds! Bonus!

 

[SennaP1]

If you substitute Indians and Chinese for Mesa or Chautauqua you will get the same lame ole' post(s) thats on FI.com. Just trying to prove a point, not attacking Indians and Chinese directly. They do whats available and handed to them, and actually make of pretty well with it. Even if they are worked hard.

Everything is outsourced nowadays and it will continue to be. There is no stopping it. UPS actually is taking very good advantage of it, as they are the outsourcers of alot of stuff.

P1

 

[SennaP1]

Dude?

Is it not the truth? I'm sure if you go to Dellanswerdesksinfo.com or Computerprogrammerinfo.com, there somebody crying out holy hel.l about the bottom-feeding regional Indian/Chinese worker.

I understand that thats how US business and business in general is run, its almost always going to the lowest bidder. Thats why I don't get too wrapped up about things. I know that there is a human factor there, with families being affected and so on. But I truly don't think the CEOs or CFOs care as has been shown in the past and modern day. The Rich get richer and well you know the rest.

Isn't that how the US Military works? The gun you are shooting is in your hands because it was the lowest cost to them, not anything else.

 

[hopalong]

I have thought that the regionals might start hurting for qualified pilots pretty soon. Consider the facts:

1. Fractionals hiring like mad
2. Majors starting to hire again
3. Regional pay and QOL never quite finding the rock bottom
4. VLJs coming on line

There are lots of places for experienced pilots to go and not quite as many eager young pups willing to be worked like dogs for peanuts (to mix a metaphor).

Before Skywest quashed ASA's growth, hiring minimums were down to 600-1. From what I heard, quite a few captains became de facto CFIs.

I agree with you blueridge. And contrary to popular belief, I think Yip is right.
It's all cyclical, hiring booms, real estate prices fluctuating, interest rates rising and falling, etc... Net jets is planning on hiring 500 pilots per year for the next few years. UPS, fedex, and majors are hiring. I've been in the industry for 10 years and the hiring boom is on the rise. Thank God. Get your resumes out there and send them to everyone. I just got hired at nja and
I've met a few guys that have left the majors to work with us and I've questioned their move. They all tell me that the upgrade time is too long and
there is no stability. Hopefully, with all the hiring that is going on, things will get better for all of us.

 

[belchfire]

There are too many pilots out there. Otherwise we would be making more than truck drivers.

Untill there are
(1) long term stability (ha) and
(2) realistic payscales (hahaha)
across the board it is too much of a crapshoot to base your future on aviation as a career!

End of discussion!

 

[wrxpilot]

Just wait until you get married, have a family and try and make ends meet the way you intended to when those pathetic paychecks come rolling in.

I'm one of those doing flight training "post-911", and mommy and daddy ain't got nuthin to do with it. They haven't since I was 17 either, so I have no free couches to crash on (my friends are pricks too!).

Were you somehow unaware of the payscale at your airline when you signed? Are you aware there is a segment of aviation beyond 121 flying? Everybody was affected by 9/11, not just you. I was laid off after 4 weeks as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Turned out to be a great thing, but I didn't think so at time.

I'm not going into this thinking it's going to be a cake walk, but I am paying attention to what's going on and am going to pick, choose, and make life decisions (life having kids, buying boats, etc.) as necessary.

I may not know much about aviation, but I do know how to make it in life without help. Here's something I've learned - there's practially nothing out there that is a guaranteed stable, get rich kind of job. There's definitely not much out there that offers the above with the bonus of job satisfaction.

 

[hopalong]

There are too many pilots out there. Otherwise we would be making more than truck drivers.

Untill there are
(1) long term stability (ha) and
(2) realistic payscales (hahaha)
across the board it is too much of a crapshoot to base your future on aviation as a career!

End of discussion!

I agree with you. I don't recommend getting into aviation to anyone. As a matter of fact, I speak at various schools on career day and when I tell those youngins about the average payscales from the majors to corporate, I have to pick up their faces off the floor. Most of the professors are floored and
amazed that most pilots starting out are below the poverty level.

But, for those of us who have invested years of our lives in aviation and love flying, we need to fight for our rights. We are responsible for more lives and real estate in any given day. We do deserve more. We need to make the public aware of how little we are paid and fight for what we deserve. We need to warn future aviators of the uphill battles they will encounter and the crappy pay they can look forward to for years to come. If they are warned, they may choose another path, hence less future pilots and less competition.
The less competition we have, the better things will be for all of us.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

You know, good for you if you're content with your individual situation. I guess that if you can keep on getting the schedules you need, you got it made. Honestly, if you're content, all the power to you.

However, my argument is and was geared for that young pup that's just stepping into the game expecting the world of "Margaritas and Senoritas," as someone else quoted. That person who will fly for anybody at any price, as long as it's an airline job. The person who believes that the pain may only last for a couple of years. Since upgrade will follow shortly thereafter, as well as the money.

That may be true for some. It's also true that some may even get to a major before the average Joe. Then, you have those who are content with what they make because they make it work. But it's pretty clear that's simply not the norm. Especially when there's more than one mouth to feed.

My point is merely to try and educate the newcomers on the facts that they may face at a typical regional. To some it may matter. To some it may not, especially if their parent's bank accounts do the thinking for them. In any case, unless you're absolutely sure and willing to pay the price, my advice to the hopefuls is to choose other routes. Corporate, fractionals, or 135 until you're competitive for those positions. Or better yet, stay away completely if you can live without it.

In answer to your observation about my personal well being, I do just fine. Not because of aviation alone but because I'm blessed and fortunate enough to own businesses outside of aviation. So...no, I don't think I'm bitter. But if observing the downward trends that hurt my fellow pilots classify me as being "bitter" then I guess I'll proudly wear that hat.

You are a d0uche bag. You are unhappy with they way your career has turned out. Sorry for you, but what would compel you to try to disuade others who are not in the business yet and who still have dreams of flying? Everyone has their own experience and I am happy with mine as a lot of others are as well. The complainers have found this website though as a place to b!tch and the happy folks tend to stay away. Your attitude is similar to the @ss bag captain that talks down to his F/O's in the, "I've been flying this thing for "x" years and I know everything. Let me tell you how it is," tone of voice. The only thing you know is that you are unhappy with your life. Do yourself a favor and fix it. Otherwise don't rain on other people's dreams. It's a selfish way to make yourself feel better about yourself. Feel free to tell people what they can expect to make their first year and through their times at the regionals, but leave your opinion out of it!

 

[RUNWAYHOG]

Hey, i do remember reading about six months ago in AOPA that there has been a 60 decrease in people learning to fly post 911. I think what it is, mom and dad is telling there kiddies no way am i paying 50k plus so you can make 20K. And you know what?? who can blame them.

 

[hopalong]

You are a d0uche bag. You are unhappy with they way your career has turned out. Sorry for you, but what would compel you to try to disuade others who are not in the business yet and who still have dreams of flying? Everyone has their own experience and I am happy with mine as a lot of others are as well. The complainers have found this website though as a place to b!tch and the happy folks tend to stay away. Your attitude is similar to the @ss bag captain that talks down to his F/O's in the, "I've been flying this thing for "x" years and I know everything. Let me tell you how it is," tone of voice. The only thing you know is that you are unhappy with your life. Do yourself a favor and fix it. Otherwise don't rain on other people's dreams. It's a selfish way to make yourself feel better about yourself. Feel free to tell people what they can expect to make their first year and through their times at the regionals, but leave your opinion out of it!

Hey Mr. Sunshine, apparently you must not be very happy if you're on this website. You say happy people stay away. HMMMMM. Interesting....
From reading your other posts, it seems that YOU are the know it all.Listen up jerky, I speak at schools and tell kids what to expect. I love flying and if someone is interested, I am the first to help them out and give them as much advice as I can. But they need to know what road they are headed down and
they need to be warned. Most everyone I know that hears I'm a pilot thinks
that I must be making tons of money. Do I love flying? Absolutely! Would I do it again. Absolutely! But not everyone will when they hear about the pay in the first few years. For you to think that noone should give their opinions
is ridiculous. You just keep spreading your sunshine around happy boy.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Hey Mr. Sunshine, apparently you must not be very happy if you're on this website. You say happy people stay away. HMMMMM. Interesting....
From reading your other posts, it seems that YOU are the know it all.Listen up jerky, I speak at schools and tell kids what to expect. I love flying and if someone is interested, I am the first to help them out and give them as much advice as I can. But they need to know what road they are headed down and
they need to be warned. Most everyone I know that hears I'm a pilot thinks
that I must be making tons of money. Do I love flying? Absolutely! Would I do it again. Absolutely! But not everyone will when they hear about the pay in the first few years. For you to think that noone should give their opinions
is ridiculous. You just keep spreading your sunshine around happy boy.

Learn the difference between a fact and an opinion. If you tell someone what first year pay is then you are stating a fact. If you then go on to tell them what you think of that pay, they you are stating an opinion. Keep your opinions to yourself.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Learn the difference between a fact and an opinion. If you tell someone what first year pay is then you are stating a fact. If you then go on to tell them what you think of that pay, they you are stating an opinion. Keep your opinions to yourself.

Does that go for yourself, mr. hypocrit? Or was that podium style post of yours pure fact?

 

[hopalong]

Thank you, some people just don't get it. I do say to them that once you get by the first year or two, in my opinion, It is a very rewarding job. Of course Corporate nowadays starts out way better and for what it's worth better job security.

I suppose DirkkDiggler doesn't look outside the box too often.

Thanks again Fly2scuba.

 

[boxjockey]

I don't know if I would consider corporate to have more stability. I grew up around corporate aviation, and I don't want anything to do with it. It works for some people, but remember, in smaller companies when things turn south, corporate flight departments are some of the first to get hit. I've seen it happen many times.

box

 

[pilotyip]

I have to agree with boxjockety. When my airline was going out of business, I decided to go into the corp. world got hired at a Fortune 500 auto parts supplier in Detroit. The company had 2 airplanes and 5 pilots. They had never had a lay off in their history. 3 years later in the auto turndown of 1982. They cut their dept in half, and I was let go. I saw it happen at VW, K-Mart, Dana, Ford, US Steel, the list goes on. The smaller companies are even worse, not to say there are not good corp. jobs out there, but there are no guarantees

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I'm one of those doing flight training "post-911", and mommy and daddy ain't got nuthin to do with it. They haven't since I was 17 either, so I have no free couches to crash on (my friends are pricks too!).

Were you somehow unaware of the payscale at your airline when you signed? Are you aware there is a segment of aviation beyond 121 flying? Everybody was affected by 9/11, not just you. I was laid off after 4 weeks as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Turned out to be a great thing, but I didn't think so at time.

I'm not going into this thinking it's going to be a cake walk, but I am paying attention to what's going on and am going to pick, choose, and make life decisions (life having kids, buying boats, etc.) as necessary.

I may not know much about aviation, but I do know how to make it in life without help. Here's something I've learned - there's practially nothing out there that is a guaranteed stable, get rich kind of job. There's definitely not much out there that offers the above with the bonus of job satisfaction.

Go compare a Pre 9/11 contract at Delta, United, American, Northwest and a Post 9/11 contract. Throw in the fact that the regionals are no longer a "stepping stone" and you'll see a dismal industry.

Not sure what you are looking for in the airline industry, but lots of time off with a good paycheck seem to be gone for the most part.

 

[pilotyip]

Still a great job

There still a lot of time off, and the pay check still puts you in the upper 10% of wage earners in the US. Beats working as an acountant in an office. Where else can you be paid a decent wage to do something you like? Still living the dream.

 

[hopalong]

I should have said fractionals and I'll be more specific to say NJA. Sometimes I still find myself refering to NJA as Corporate flying. I do agree with Pilotyip and Boxjockety in that the flight depart. is the first to go. However, I also have seen company's such as Kodak, IBM or Xerox where the CEO's. CFO's and high exec's will cut jobs before they lose there private jet. Even though you still get the red carpet treatment and real extravagant catering and hotels at NJA it is not considered a true corporate job.

So in my oppinion and many many others NJA is right now one of the closest aviation jobs you'll get too for job security. There are a couple of airline jobs that still exist that offer security like SW or FedEx ETC.. They are drying up quick in the airline market though.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Does that go for yourself, mr. hypocrit? Or was that podium style post of yours pure fact?

Did you even bother to read my post? Or did you read it and not understand it? I told him to keep his negative opinions about this industry to himself when speaking to gradeschoolers who are still considering flying as a career one day in the distant future. I am certainly an opinionated person and I don't mind letting you know my opinion of you isn't very flattering. Learn to read and we may be able to agree on some things.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Did you even bother to read my post? Or did you read it and not understand it? I told him to keep his negative opinions about this industry to himself when speaking to gradeschoolers who are still considering flying as a career one day in the distant future. I am certainly an opinionated person and I don't mind letting you know my opinion of you isn't very flattering. Learn to read and we may be able to agree on some things.

Yea, I read it. You sound condescending and hypocritical in telling someone to keep their opinions to themselves. I don't think there is anything wrong with explaining the negatives of a career to gradeschoolers. Are you type that discourages dodgeball because someone's feelings might get hurt? Schools shouldn't tippy toe over issues and live in a happy everything is bright world. I may have financially planned better had someone told me back in school that low pay/furlough was a very real risk in the airline industry. Or maybe would have chosen a different career that provided enough financial security where I could have flown just for fun. In too deep to give up the profession...for now.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Yea, I read it. You sound condescending and hypocritical in telling someone to keep their opinions to themselves. I don't think there is anything wrong with explaining the negatives of a career to gradeschoolers. Are you type that discourages dodgeball because someone's feelings might get hurt? Schools shouldn't tippy toe over issues and live in a happy everything is bright world. I may have financially planned better had someone told me back in school that low pay/furlough was a very real risk in the airline industry. Or maybe would have chosen a different career that provided enough financial security where I could have flown just for fun. In too deep to give up the profession...for now.

Go back to the dictionary and learn the difference between opinion and fact. Then re-read my post. Explaining first year pay and furlough is simply passing on factual data and I don't think there is anything wrong with that (if you had read my posts carefully you would have already understood this). However, that other fcknut was explaining that he was interjecting his opinion of said furlough and low pay and I think it is wrong to tell little kids that you are a pilot and you think it's a crappy job and that they should look for other careers. You are welcome to lay out the facts for people. I think it's commendable that you would want people to know the facts before they enter a big decision. However, these are kids and you have no right to tell them that you think they should dash all their dreams of flying because you think it's a crappy job. If they have all the facts and still go into this business, then let them formulate their own opinions of the job. I know I have and you have as has every other pilot out there. Kids look up to pilots as "special" people no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you now. I think if you look back, you probably felt the same way when you were a little kid. You have no business giving them your negative opinions. (Look up the definition of opinions before you answer me this time). Yes I can sound condescending here because I am trying to talk down to your level. That's what this board is for you
numbskull!

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Go back to the dictionary and learn the difference between opinion and fact. Then re-read my post. Explaining first year pay and furlough is simply passing on factual data and I don't think there is anything wrong with that (if you had read my posts carefully you would have already understood this). However, that other fcknut was explaining that he was interjecting his opinion of said furlough and low pay and I think it is wrong to tell little kids that you are a pilot and you think it's a crappy job and that they should look for other careers. You are welcome to lay out the facts for people. I think it's commendable that you would want people to know the facts before they enter a big decision. However, these are kids and you have no right to tell them that you think they should dash all their dreams of flying because you think it's a crappy job. If they have all the facts and still go into this business, then let them formulate their own opinions of the job. I know I have and you have as has every other pilot out there. Kids look up to pilots as "special" people no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you now. I think if you look back, you probably felt the same way when you were a little kid. You have no business giving them your negative opinions. (Look up the definition of opinions before you answer me this time). Yes I can sound condescending here because I am trying to talk down to your level. That's what this board is for you
numbskull!

If I gave a positive opinion of the career to kids, I'm sure you wouldn't have an issue with that. Problem is you want only the Barney purple dinosaur world view and not the Jurassic Park version. Not only that, but you chide anyone for not agreeing with that point.

You really are hung up on this whole fact versus opinion thing. We might as well have robots teach our kids. Opinions from eduactors just like journalists are fine by me as long as one states it as such. If any school age kids are reading this, be very wary of an aviation career. I think there are better choices. Just my opinion.

 

[mac36]

The Regionals Have Just Started to Suck ?????????

I can only presume you mean the wages and not the working conditions. It's been awhile since guys flew 8-10 legs in a plane with no APU and no auto pilot (Metro).

Amen brother !!!!! The general theme with a lot of folks on this thread is that the regionals have gotten worse with time.

Yeah, it was much better back in the 80s when the "commuter" guys were flying Beech 99s, Metroliners, Otters, Shorts. No representation in most cases, same lousy schedules, (like you said) no APU's ( sitting in your car with the windows up in July simulates that treat real nicely) and no autopilots.

I once flew a weekend schedule with 14 legs in one day. The no autopilot thing was a blast when the weather was down on that pairing.

I might also add NO JETS, no glass, and, oh yeah, no quick upgrades as the explosive growth was yet to occur.

The "regionals" have always sucked to some degree. Difference is, the aircraft were turboprops in the early days, and 30 seats was a BIG airplane.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Hey, i do remember reading about six months ago in AOPA that there has been a 60 decrease in people learning to fly post 911. I think what it is, mom and dad is telling there kiddies no way am i paying 50k plus so you can make 20K. And you know what?? who can blame them.

If only you made just $20K your entire career, which is the way many of you make it sound. I know guys upgrading after 3 years, making $70K almost immediately, some pulling in $80K+ after just a few years as a captain ... at a regional. Most FO's I know are pulling in $40K+ their second and third year as an FO. Many of you make the salaries at regionals sound like they are ten times worse than they are. For comparison. The average salary being offered today, out of college, is $30-$40K, depending on career. Only engineers are getting higher offers, in the $50K range. The average salary, topped off, for someone with a college degree; $70K. These people outside of aviation pulling in these six figure salaries are just as rare as that FedEx or UPS captain, yet many of you make it sound like everybody outside of aviation is pulling in $300K, and living the good life. Well, if that is the case, and that is so easy, then why don't you leave, and go get that $300K/ year job outside of aviation. And don't tell me about your investment in this career. If everybody is making so much more outside of aviation, then you can easily make up for that "investment". "The overall average U.S. salary is $71,542."

I'll bet when yall are speaking at those career days, you don't mention making $80K as a regional captain, or the fact that major airline captains make over $100K, still. No, its all about FIRST YEAR pay of $20k, you tell everybody, which then makes it sound like you never make more than that.

Regional captains statistically are in the top percentage of income earners in this country. "U.S. workers in the 90th percentile of wage/salary earners—those making $80,000 per year." Some of you make what is considered to be good incomes, seem like poverty. "The top 10 percent of earners-a category that includes people making $80,000-pay about 60 percent of all income taxes."

I understand the complaint that pilots should be paid more for their responsibility, skills, and qualifications, but I do not agree that the salaries, from a money value alone, are bad.

 

[mac36]

If any school age kids are reading this, be very wary of an aviation career. I think there are better choices. Just my opinion.

Just curious, what choices would those be? In your opinion.

 

[rickair7777]

If only you made just $20K your entire career, which is the way many of you make it sound. I know guys upgrading after 3 years, making $70K almost immediately, some pulling in $80K+ after just a few years as a captain ... at a regional. Most FO's I know are pulling in $40K+ their second and third year as an FO. Many of you make the salaries at regionals sound like they are ten times worse than they are. For comparison. The average salary being offered today, out of college, is $30-$40K, depending on career. Only engineers are getting higher offers, in the $50K range. The average salary, topped off, for someone with a college degree; $70K. These people outside of aviation pulling in these six figure salaries are just as rare as that FedEx or UPS captain, yet many of you make it sound like everybody outside of aviation is pulling in $300K, and living the good life. Well, if that is the case, and that is so easy, then why don't you leave, and go get that $300K/ year job outside of aviation. And don't tell me about your investment in this career. If everybody is making so much more outside of aviation, then you can easily make up for that "investment". "The overall average U.S. salary is $71,542."

I'll bet when yall are speaking at those career days, you don't mention making $80K as a regional captain, or the fact that major airline captains make over $100K, still. No, its all about FIRST YEAR pay of $20k, you tell everybody, which then makes it sound like you never make more than that.

Regional captains statistically are in the top percentage of income earners in this country. "U.S. workers in the 90th percentile of wage/salary earners—those making $80,000 per year." Some of you make what is considered to be good incomes, seem like poverty. "The top 10 percent of earners-a category that includes people making $80,000-pay about 60 percent of all income taxes."

I understand the complaint that pilots should be paid more for their responsibility, skills, and qualifications, but I do not agree that the salaries, from a money value alone, are bad.

You need to compare airline salaries with other workers who travel for the job and spend a lot of time away from home...$80K is great if you work 8 hour days and come home each night, but most pilots don't.

Look at oil rig workers, miners, fishermen, defense contractors, and other specialty workers who work in remote locations...

They usually work 7 on/7 off (or 14on/14 off) and pull down enough overtime to get into 6 figures. Most of these folks do not have high training & education overhead either.

BTW, the days of pilots working 6 days/month are long gone, typical regional guy is lucky to get a 15/15 split, which is the standard in other industries that work away from home.

 

[pilotyip]

If you are in a career for money, then oil rigs, minimg etc, should be a career goal. However, if you like to fly it is still a great career, however if you are in it for ....... you know the rest.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

If I gave a positive opinion of the career to kids, I'm sure you wouldn't have an issue with that. Problem is you want only the Barney purple dinosaur world view and not the Jurassic Park version.

They're kids. That's why Barney the purple dinosaur exists for them and not for us. They have to be treated differently that adults. Is this such a difficult concept? Perhaps we should show them "Apocalypse Now" and teach them about the legacy of war? Why sugar coat things and not be completely honest about life?

 

[hopalong]

Go back to the dictionary and learn the difference between opinion and fact. Then re-read my post. Explaining first year pay and furlough is simply passing on factual data and I don't think there is anything wrong with that (if you had read my posts carefully you would have already understood this). However, that other fcknut was explaining that he was interjecting his opinion of said furlough and low pay and I think it is wrong to tell little kids that you are a pilot and you think it's a crappy job and that they should look for other careers. You are welcome to lay out the facts for people. I think it's commendable that you would want people to know the facts before they enter a big decision. However, these are kids and you have no right to tell them that you think they should dash all their dreams of flying because you think it's a crappy job. If they have all the facts and still go into this business, then let them formulate their own opinions of the job. I know I have and you have as has every other pilot out there. Kids look up to pilots as "special" people no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you now. I think if you look back, you probably felt the same way when you were a little kid. You have no business giving them your negative opinions. (Look up the definition of opinions before you answer me this time). Yes I can sound condescending here because I am trying to talk down to your level. That's what this board is for you
numbskull!

O.K. You just convinced me of a few things. Not only are you obnoxious but you are also a communist idiot who believes that I should deliver speeches
that provide nothing but facts.

First of all, I am not talking with fifth graders. I am talking w/high schoolers
and college kids. If you would've read my post you would have understood that. Not once in my post did I say anything about furlough.Let me clarify this much. When I said that I do not recommend aviation to anyone, I meant to say to JUSt anyone.Itell all the students to get as much information and educate themselves as much as they can. I even give them my cell# as well, as one friend in cargo and one at the majors, so that, they make their own decisions. Oh and yes, I am being condescending because I have come to
the conclusion that you are the type of person looking for a fight. You must be a real joy to fly with sunshine. Oh, tell me one thing. Should I answer any
of the students questions? Or just refer them to statistics. Boy, I bet they
would take away a lot if I gave nothing but the facts. I understand that we,
eventually will make a lot of money but they need to know of all the sacrifices we make. (like doctors and lawyers)

Hey sunshine, here's an idea. Let's hit the road together and campaign that everyone becomes a pilot!!!! Let's candy coat everything about it because
we don't want to squash all those dreams. And if you think that aviation schools and airlines don't do that very thing to increase competition
and lower wages for all of us, then you my friend are VERY naive.

Do us all a favor,when you come back from La, la land, let us know what you've learned. I am sure it will be stimulating.