'Not as talented'...

[FO 4 Life]

by the way I am sick of the "two dead pilots left their families behind" crap. These two dead pilots killed 50 passengers due to basic lack of airmanship.

Sort of like Cali and Little Rock? Can happen to anyone anywhere.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I posted this in another thread in regards to people talking about majors wrecking airplanes and I think it very much applies here as well.

"The legacy accidents over the years have been largely resultant of culture problems. The problem now is the regionals are having to relearn how to correct the exact same culture problems through killing people- again. "

 

[hockeypilot44]

I disagree. Talent does not come with experience (flight hours). I've seen some relatively inexperienced (hours) pilots who were VERY talented pilots. And I've seen some very experienced pilots who can't fly their way out of a wet paper bag.

Experience and "talent" are mutually exclusive terms.

I am guessing you consider yourself one of the talented pilots?

 

[SLUF4]

Well, my point wasn't to be a jackass about the Delta crash-it was to point out that at some time in our careers i'm sure all of us has said a word or two not related to the flight below 10K. It's not just lowly regional pilots that do it.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

SLUF- my problem with this accident isnt the conversation.. they obviously put their game faces on when the approach phase began, and even the conversation was pertinent to the conditions that they were experiencing, albeit a bit on the wordy side.

 

[SLUF4]

I know, but the media is making a mountain out of that molehill. The problem is they weren't watching their airspeed for whatever reason.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

You guys aren't as experienced as the major airline pilots esp. the legacy pilot...Don't even try to say you are. You don't do international...you don't fly the heavies (yet)...you don't have 10's of thousands of hours. Does that make you bad pilots...no...

 

[satpak77]

Sort of like Cali and Little Rock? Can happen to anyone anywhere.

Cali was a FMS programming issue, yes they f***ed it up

Little Rock was a (or "the") MD-80 Training/Program manager pilot teamed up with a rookie who may not have been inclined to take the yoke away, who simply pushed it to get to the runway in T-Storms.

Both are not in the "didn't fly the airplane" category like these two people who left 52 families (50 + their two families) behind.

By the way stalls are covered in the Private Pilot PTS.

Didn't recognize a stall, even with a stick shaker? Anybody can take a wild guess WHY a stick shaker exists? Because some other dead guy didn't recognize a stall before it was too late.

What is next, the Pre-Stick Shaker Shaker?

Sad and offensive to the profession. 52 families

Don't ever forget it.

 

[SLUF4]

So you're saying nobody at the regionals has flown Int'l or flies heavies? I know several AF reserve guys at my airline that have/are flying KC-135's, C130's etc. I'm sure there are also a few ex-legacy furloughed guys.

 

[FO 4 Life]

While I don't intend to pick on the AA crews.

Cali would've cleared the mountain with all the FMS screw ups if they would have stowed the speedbrakes. Hit something like 300 feet below the top.

Little Rock was ORD CP and this time didn't arm the speed brakes and no one made sure they deployed. They got it down just couldn't stop it.

So didn't recognize boards were out/didn't recognize boards were not out. So I guess those don't fall under didn't fly the airplane?

 

[SLUF4]

The point is that at nearly any accident somebody somewhere f'ed up. Can't we be more constructive about this so it won't happen again?

 

[satpak77]

While I don't intend to pick on the AA crews.

Cali would've cleared the mountain with all the FMS screw ups if they would have stowed the speedbrakes. Hit something like 300 feet below the top.

Little Rock was ORD CP and this time didn't arm the speed brakes and no one made sure they deployed. They got it down just couldn't stop it.

So didn't recognize boards were out/didn't recognize boards were not out. So I guess those don't fall under didn't fly the airplane?

To use your words, not mine, none of the above aircraft were in a non-flying state because the crew let the plane get that way.

Thanks for clarifying my point.

 

[Speedtape]

I disagree. Talent does not come with experience (flight hours). I've seen some relatively inexperienced (hours) pilots who were VERY talented pilots. And I've seen some very experienced pilots who can't fly their way out of a wet paper bag.

Experience and "talent" are mutually exclusive terms.

First, I think we both can at least agree that in life, as in aviation, there are no absolutes.
There may be exceptions to the rule, but, in general, you argument is flawed. Experience always counts. Generally, experience improves decision making, confidence, proficiency, and wisdom. If a pilot conducts himself professionally and exercises his duties with discipline and diligence, then experience is an important element in his ability to best perform his job.

A 10 year old can be "talented" and fly MS Simulator X to perfection. However, without flight experience in a real airplane, do you want him flying your family around?

There are some pilots who have the touch. Without experience, they may not be safe in all conditions. On another note, we have always known persons that may be very talented in certain areas, however, they may not always act or perform in a disciplined, professional manner. In those cases, what difference does "talent" make?

In summary, if I was King, I would choose experienced average skills over inexperienced talent every time. The terms may be mutually "exclusive," but they can be absolutely relative.

 

[cheater1239]

your friend is up against a public record

Didn't happen. I personally know the guy who was the F/E on that.

They two engine taxiied out and the Capt. gave them a grand total of 90 seconds to get the third engine started, do the checklists as he pushed the throttle forward. Unfortunately, they missed the flaps.

Meanwhile, the cockpit tape, which began shortly before the
aircraft pushed back from the gate, revealed that Flight 1141 had
nearly a 30-minute wait before getting takeoff clearance, during
which much of the time the flight crew _ sometimes with a flight
attendant taking part _ engaged in casual conversation, including a
lengthy exchange about the large number of birds at the Dallas-Fort
Worth airport.
At one point, the transcript refers to nearly eight minutes of
``nonpertinent conversation'' _ omitted from the transcript _ with
a senior flight attendant. The exchange is cut short when Davis
asks Kirkland about requiring to change frequencies to contact a
second ground controller as the plane moved from the east to the
west side of the airport.
``Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sitting here talking to the flight
attendant,'' apologized Kirkland.
Judd, the flight engineer, later told investigators that when
the plane was third in line for takeoff, he announced the plane
would be taking off soon ``in part because of his concern about the
flight attendant's continued presence in the cockpit,'' one NTSB
document said.

 

[Speedtape]

To use your words, not mine, none of the above aircraft were in a non-flying state because the crew let the plane get that way.

Thanks for clarifying my point.

No, but one common thread is that all lost situation awareness that placed a perfectly fit aircraft in a dangerous state--some were regional pilots and some were former military, major airline pilots. The important point--they were all humans capable of making mistakes--but by all accounts, good people.

An assumption is that all on this board are human, and therefore capable of making mistakes. No one sets out to run into a mountain, run off a runway, or stall an airplane. But, it happened to good people that were considered good pilots at all levels of experience and training backgrounds. Unfortunately, something similar will happen again.

 

[skiandsurf]

Another crash with the PIC being the PF.

Proves my point again that PICs dont manage their crews. Let the SIC fly (in bad weather) and as a PIC, sit back and manage.

 

[WabiSabi]

Another crash with the PIC being the PF.

Proves my point again that PICs dont manage their crews. Let the SIC fly (in bad weather) and as a PIC, sit back and manage.

I agree. You don't see Captain Kirk "flying" the Enterprise. He manages and he was a great Captain!

 

[flyboyike]

It only takes a few bad apples to give any group a bad name...

Very true. For example, 96.3% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.

 

[ohplease!]

You guys aren't as experienced as the major airline pilots esp. the legacy pilot...Don't even try to say you are. You don't do international...you don't fly the heavies (yet)...you don't have 10's of thousands of hours. Does that make you bad pilots...no...

you'd be shocked at the experience level and background of a lot of us. Some regionals are a lot better stocked with experienced pilots than most of the others....unfortunately, those regionals are being gutted because of the competition from low balling regionals.

Raise the standards....(unfortunatley, even if that were to happen, accidents will still happen).... but they (FAA) won't because all anyone really cares about is $LOW$

 

[FO 4 Life]

To use your words, not mine, none of the above aircraft were in a non-flying state because the crew let the plane get that way.

Thanks for clarifying my point.

I guess we'll agree to disagree since the AA crews didn't put the aircraft in a non-flying state until they crashed. All ended up the same.