Northwest pilots set conditions for a merger...Article

[John Pennekamp]

The only thing that will be parked right away is CRJ 200s.

Want to put some money on that statement? And some details. How soon? How many?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Want to put some money on that statement? And some details. How soon? How many?

Yes, any CRJ200 that runs nwa hub to delta hub and vice versa will be cut. Such as ATL-MEM, DTW-CVG, etc. That capacity will be immediately absorbed into the mainline.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Yes, any CRJ200 that runs nwa hub to delta hub and vice versa will be cut. Such as ATL-MEM, DTW-CVG, etc. That capacity will be immediately absorbed into the mainline.

I disagree. IF the feds approve the merger (and that's a big "if") it will be on the condition that they can't eliminate competition and cut service. Right now, on the DTW-ATL route NWA flies DC-9s and Delta flies RJs with a couple of Maddogs thrown in. If these overlapping routes move to mainline equipment, the RJs will be redeployed elsewhere. But more likely, the routes like DTW-ATL and ATL will remain the same so as not to arouse the antitrust watchdogs. And the current capacity on those routes already seems "right sized" anyhow. I doubt they will decrease frequency on these business routes just to eliminate the RJs.

More likely a lot of the short DC-9 routes will be cut, especially the intra Michigan routes like DTW-GRR, DTW-MBS, and DTW-FNT. Thee routes will be going to RJs or even turboprops, as they already should have.

There will be plenty of capacity for RJs post merger. They will just be used in more of a traditional commuter role, and for the long thin routes, not to and from large cities like they do now.

 

[DTW320]

Our 757/767 pays more than the A330 now (thanks to the 1.5% raise we just got Jan 1st), and the 764 pays a lot more.

It doesn't really matter, but our A330 CA rate is $161.52 + $5.17 Intl Override (no domestic flying on the 330). I was thinking your 75/6 domestic was around $158.

We also got a raise on 1/1/08.

 

[retired guy]

[quoteOne thing is for sure: Anderson and Steenland could care less about the employees but they are very savvy businessmen; they will see this through and laugh all the way to the bank. While the employees suffer along with the Paxs.[/quote]

I disagree with the above statement...I think that they COULDN`T care less about anything exect making money for themselves and the hedge funds and companys that are holding the paper on Detla and NorthWest. Anderson came in saying "I didn`t come here to merge Delta...yadda yadda" less than a year later is "Who can we merge with? Oh yeah...NorthWest..ok"...He made a big old promise to "Keep Delta- Delta" and to "Keep the company headquarters in ATL"....That one may go away also...I`ve been through 3 mergers during my time at Delta..NorthEast, Western and the remains of Pan Am. If you think either pilot group can stop a merger, you are dreaming...they can make it nasty, but in the end, drop your drawers and bend over, here it comes...

 

[Tomct]

And the madness continues! Furloughs will be on the way, flying is going to be cut and that's just the begginning! It is going to be UGLY!
Right now both companies need pilots, except when the merge is complete they will start parking dc9's faster than you can imagine. They will want to get the fleet in order ASAP to keep costs down...ie training, sims, aircraft parts etc. Man, I would not want to be on the bottom of THAT list! Good Luck to all of those involved...you might want to get your resume's updated also....

 

[MINIME]

[
I disagree with the above statement...I think that they COULDN`T care less about anything exect making money for themselves and the hedge funds and companys that are holding the paper on Detla and NorthWest. Anderson came in saying "I didn`t come here to merge Delta...yadda yadda" less than a year later is "Who can we merge with? Oh yeah...NorthWest..ok"...He made a big old promise to "Keep Delta- Delta" and to "Keep the company headquarters in ATL"....That one may go away also...I`ve been through 3 mergers during my time at Delta..NorthEast, Western and the remains of Pan Am. If you think either pilot group can stop a merger, you are dreaming...they can make it nasty, but in the end, drop your drawers and bend over, here it comes...[/quote]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the above statement. All in all, I don't think the pilot groups can stop anything that the big wigs want to do. Hell, I don't even think the Govt. can stop them! Especially now with the evil "R" floating around. I agree that the groups can make it nasty for them, but beyond that, it is what it is. I'm still hopeful that DAL/NWA will cause the least loss of jobs. Hopefully none....due to Int. expansions and some retirements.

This industry does not need job losses. It needs vacancies that airlines have a hard time filling.

 

[JOPILOT]

And the madness continues! Furloughs will be on the way, flying is going to be cut and that's just the begginning! It is going to be UGLY!
Right now both companies need pilots, except when the merge is complete they will start parking dc9's faster than you can imagine. They will want to get the fleet in order ASAP to keep costs down...ie training, sims, aircraft parts etc. Man, I would not want to be on the bottom of THAT list! Good Luck to all of those involved...you might want to get your resume's updated also....

Thanks for the Good Luck, where and with whom should I update my resume' so I am in a good position?

 

[johnsonrod]

While I agree that the Diesel 9s will eventually need to be parked, I think that NWA plans to park them over time with or without a merger. That's what Compass is for. The fact that a potential Delta-NWA merger has few overlapping hubs (except MEM/CVG) translates into fewer needs to reduce redundancies.

Delta and NWA do not compete directly on many routes except to/from the hubs - right? Maybe some random flights to Hawaii but not many other routes. You don't find NWA flying between LAX and JFK. You don't flying Delta flying flights between SEA and NRT. The point is that while there might be some basic redundancies (back office, administrative, one HQ will need to be reduced), I don't see the need to discontinue many flights beyond the inter-hub traffic. You know that another airline would just fill that void. If DAL reduced the number of flights between ATL and DTW, Air Tran would just increase its numbers between those city pairs.

The main benefit of this combination would be complementary route systems - NWA adds two upper Midwest hubs and a fantasic Asian network. Delta adds Europe, JFK, the Southeast, Latin America and a West Coast presence that NWA lacks. Both are members of the same code-share alliance and both will benefit from working closer with Air France/KLM.

Anyone who thinks UAL would be a better partner than NWA (like Gordon Buffoon) is on crack. I don't see the need for the "sky is falling" mentality in this case - sure, there will probably be some change but I think it would be minor (beyond headquarters reduction and administrative "synergies") because the route systems are so complementary... The regionals have the least to gain, however, because you probably don't need as many regional partners - especially if either MEM/CVG is reduced.

 

[IXLR8]

I'd say that total would shrink fast to about 10000 pilots...

Mergers are never good for the pilots...

Or anyone else in the Industry.

 

[glasspilot1]

Delta and Northwest: "Two Great Airlines, One Great Future".

Hmmmmm... Now where have I heard that one before...Hmmmm?

 

[Superpilot92]

While I agree that the Diesel 9s will eventually need to be parked, I think that NWA plans to park them over time with or without a merger. That's what Compass is for. The fact that a potential Delta-NWA merger has few overlapping hubs (except MEM/CVG) translates into fewer needs to reduce redundancies.

Delta and NWA do not compete directly on many routes except to/from the hubs - right? Maybe some random flights to Hawaii but not many other routes. You don't find NWA flying between LAX and JFK. You don't flying Delta flying flights between SEA and NRT. The point is that while there might be some basic redundancies (back office, administrative, one HQ will need to be reduced), I don't see the need to discontinue many flights beyond the inter-hub traffic. You know that another airline would just fill that void. If DAL reduced the number of flights between ATL and DTW, Air Tran would just increase its numbers between those city pairs.

The main benefit of this combination would be complementary route systems - NWA adds two upper Midwest hubs and a fantasic Asian network. Delta adds Europe, JFK, the Southeast, Latin America and a West Coast presence that NWA lacks. Both are members of the same code-share alliance and both will benefit from working closer with Air France/KLM.

Anyone who thinks UAL would be a better partner than NWA (like Gordon Buffoon) is on crack. I don't see the need for the "sky is falling" mentality in this case - sure, there will probably be some change but I think it would be minor (beyond headquarters reduction and administrative "synergies") because the route systems are so complementary... The regionals have the least to gain, however, because you probably don't need as many regional partners - especially if either MEM/CVG is reduced.

Not possible under the current contract. Now if they merge compass into NWA and bring the 175s onboard the NWA ticket then sure they can keep ordering more 175s. Right now Compass or mesaba can only grow 18 more aircraft between the 2 companies. The only way more aircraft can go to Compass or mesaba is if NWA gets more aircraft.

 

[Superpilot92]

And the madness continues! Furloughs will be on the way, flying is going to be cut and that's just the begginning! It is going to be UGLY!
Right now both companies need pilots, except when the merge is complete they will start parking dc9's faster than you can imagine. They will want to get the fleet in order ASAP to keep costs down...ie training, sims, aircraft parts etc. Man, I would not want to be on the bottom of THAT list! Good Luck to all of those involved...you might want to get your resume's updated also....

Well its a good thing you dont have to worry about anything since you will be unaffected at the regionals. Good luck with that, oh and thanks for the career guidance

 

[retired guy]

[quote=

 

[johnsonrod]

I disagree. IF the feds approve the merger (and that's a big "if") it will be on the condition that they can't eliminate competition and cut service. Right now, on the DTW-ATL route NWA flies DC-9s and Delta flies RJs with a couple of Maddogs thrown in. If these overlapping routes move to mainline equipment, the RJs will be redeployed elsewhere. But more likely, the routes like DTW-ATL and ATL will remain the same so as not to arouse the antitrust watchdogs. And the current capacity on those routes already seems "right sized" anyhow. I doubt they will decrease frequency on these business routes just to eliminate the RJs.

More likely a lot of the short DC-9 routes will be cut, especially the intra Michigan routes like DTW-GRR, DTW-MBS, and DTW-FNT. Thee routes will be going to RJs or even turboprops, as they already should have.

There will be plenty of capacity for RJs post merger. They will just be used in more of a traditional commuter role, and for the long thin routes, not to and from large cities like they do now.

I think RJs make sense on non-competitive routes where pricing can be adjusted to compensate for high fuel costs. I agree that the number of flights will stay near the same on competitive routes (spread out the costs across more seats), but RJs would be better deployed on longer, thinner routes with no LCC competition. Delta currently uses RJs on some competitive routes because it wants the international feed from those cities - I think the addition of 737-700s soon will change the mix on some of those routes.

I think we will see more E170s, CR9s and Q400s in the future because it is so difficult to make a profit using 50 seaters - especially in competitive routes where pricing pressure is increased. You need more seats to spread out the costs.

 

[MCDU]

Will the NW guys on furlough be stapled?

 

[FDJ2]

This is Hilarious.... The General and some of you others actually think you have a say. Alpa will get hood-winked again, fall for it and then slap themselves silly for agreeing to such a dumb idea.

The same was said when we faced an 1113c, yet we managed to keep our work rules, we have a decent sick leave policy, only endured a modest pay cut when compared to what was asked, a short duration for the concession and nearly $2B in cash in our pockets.

Then there was the hostile takeover. All the posts on here about how the money was with Parker, money talks, blah, blah, blah, but at the end of the day Parker and his backers were shown the door.

Good thing not everyone has your victim/defeatist mentality.

 

[FDJ2]

I disagree. IF the feds approve the merger (and that's a big "if") it will be on the condition that they can't eliminate competition and cut service.

The airline will agree, the merger will be blessed and in short order management will cut high cost RJ service citing unprecedent fuel costs no longer make the gas guzzling RJ feasible.

 

[jtm2222]

Does everybody realize that the General Lee has averaged a little over 5 posts a day for the past 5 1/2 years....

 

[FDJ2]

It doesn't really matter, but our A330 CA rate is $161.52 + $5.17 Intl Override (no domestic flying on the 330). I was thinking your 75/6 domestic was around $158.


We also got a raise on 1/1/08.

If DAL only receives the 1.5% contractual minimum raise:

Delta 767 rate is 159.98/hr, Int'l override is $5/hr

DAL 767-400 rate is $180.54, plus over ride

DAL 777 rate is $191.13 Only 8 on property, 2 more in Febuary.

DAL 757 pay is $159.98/hr

DAL has 136 B757s

DAL has over 100 767s, 21 of them are 767-400s.

For pay comparison purposes, DAL's 767-400 pays about the same as NWA's 747-400, DAL's 767 and 757 pays about the same as NWA's A330, and DAL's MD-88/90 pays about the same as NWA's 757.

Hopefully all pay rates will go up in the event of a merger with pay equity across the board.

 

[Diesel-9]

Pay is the easiest benifit to restore. Work rules and bodies are the hardest and most time consuming. And NWA kept a good portion of the work rules. I made $191 an hour 4 years ago as a DC-9 CA. The Whale guys were about $250+. And thanks to all the NWA guys and the '98 Strike, UAL/DAL got the big rates they had, although for a short time. Better days ahead, pay wise.

 

[Max Powers]

Pay is the easiest benifit to restore. Work rules and bodies are the hardest and most time consuming. And NWA kept a good portion of the work rules. I made $191 an hour 4 years ago as a DC-9 CA. The Whale guys were about $250+. And thanks to all the NWA guys and the '98 Strike, UAL/DAL got the big rates they had, although for a short time. Better days ahead, pay wise.

Yea but at what cost????

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Does everybody realize that the General Lee has averaged a little over 5 posts a day for the past 5 1/2 years....

That's the only factual or interesting post in this thread.

Nice work!

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Pay is the easiest benifit to restore. Work rules and bodies are the hardest and most time consuming. And NWA kept a good portion of the work rules. I made $191 an hour 4 years ago as a DC-9 CA. The Whale guys were about $250+. And thanks to all the NWA guys and the '98 Strike, UAL/DAL got the big rates they had, although for a short time. Better days ahead, pay wise.

Question: Does retro pay include all the money you could have made through investments? The money that the company would have contributed to your 401k or profit sharing?

 

[jke406]

Delta and Northwest: "Two Great Airlines, One Great Future".

I think what you meant was:

"Two Great Airlines, One Great Future...without RJs."

 

[Occam's Razor]

Will the NW guys on furlough be stapled?

Yeah...right below the New Hires.

(sigh)

 

[John Pennekamp]

The airline will agree, the merger will be blessed and in short order management will cut high cost RJ service citing unprecedent fuel costs no longer make the gas guzzling RJ feasible.

I think what you meant was:

"Two Great Airlines, One Great Future...without RJs."

Sad and pathetic to see two mainline pilots who have already "made it" gleefully predicting pilots less fortunate them losing their jobs.

That's what's wrong with this industry. We fight for scraps and management picks our pockets while we're fighting.

 

[MJ42]

Sad and pathetic to see two mainline pilots who have already "made it" gleefully predicting pilots less fortunate them losing their jobs.

That's what's wrong with this industry. We fight for scraps and management picks our pockets while we're fighting.

I don't think FDJ2 is gleeful in his post, he's giving an opinion on what he thinks will happen. There is a lot of agreement with his statements but in actuality who knows what will happen. I came up through the CFI, 135 then regional ranks and would hate to see anyone lose their job, but maybe this cyclical industry is changing back to where it should have been all along...Regional feed actually being what it's name implies, with appropriate aircraft on those routes.

 

[jke406]

Sad and pathetic to see two mainline pilots who have already "made it" gleefully predicting pilots less fortunate them losing their jobs.

Neither one of those posts was in any way "gleeful."

The sad-sack victim routine isn't working for you, my man.

And don't forget, hundreds/thousands of mainline pilots will be furloughed in almost any merger situation.

 

[johnsonrod]

Neither one of those posts was in any way "gleeful."

The sad-sack victim routine isn't working for you, my man.

And don't forget, hundreds/thousands of mainline pilots will be furloughed in almost any merger situation.

Not true. If the route networks are truly complementary then "massive" furloughs are unlikely. It's also unlikely that the FEDs will have problems given that so few hubs actually overlap. If you reduce capacity on redundant routes (e.g., ATL-DTW), another airline (like Air Tran or SWA) will simply fill in the void and compete with the combined carrier. NWA and DAL primarily compete head-to-head on hub-connecting routes like ATL-DTW or MSP-CVG. If the merger actually gets the green light, there may not be the need for many mainline furloughs at the two companies (if at all). There just isn't much overlap between the two airlines. Hiring at the combined airline might not be as strong going forward depending upon how the combined airline would deploy the Diesel 9 crews as those aircraft leave the fleet...

However, the impact on regional feed is a little less clear because a combined carrier may not need 7 regional partners...