Northwest pilots blame air traffic controllers for overshooting airport

[Corbon]

No, they are not getting a hearing; they are getting to appeal an Emergency Revocation.

Appealing an Emergency Revocation is a lot different than going through an investigation and a hearing.

I would suspect that the louder one screams and rails against these guys, the younger and more inexperienced the person is that's making the noise. . . .

This case doesn't directly affect you or me, but the Emergency Revocation without a hearing is very troubling, and the repercussions from this will stink even worse.

Seems to me that the most judgemental pilots among us are not superior aviators, they are just management's wet dream, and you, my friend, are management's wettest dream.

Congratulations, pal. Karma's a bitch, hope you enjoy being married to her.:laugh:

I understand what you're saying but these guys didn't do themselves any favors. They should have shut their pieholes until they had proper representation and forced the FAA to build their case. Instead, they gave the authorities and the media plenty of rope to hang them, starting when they pulled into the gate.

"We were having a heated discussion...well, no it wasn't that. We were having bidding lessons on our laptops"

If authorities are waiting in the jetway to talk to you, that may be an indication you need to STFU and call your union right now.

 

[HOMER D POE]

what a screwed up system

seems to me the most judgemental pilots among us are not superior aviators

DUMBA$$ statement #1 ...they slept, they F'up, they're out of a job

DUMBA$$ statement #2 ...you have no idea who is superior since these two schmucks are branded for the rest of their lives. every party they go to, they'll get asked, "what took you so long?" overshoot the driveway?

it is pathetic..seems to me

 

[jetflier]

Rumor has it that the actual circumstances surrounding this situation are not as colorful as all the bantering.

 

[bubbers44]

We had a captain with a day one FO refuse to go around when told to by a controller because of an abort on the runway. He ended up off the runway broken in half when he put the gear up before stopping his descent, tore off the right engine on a very late go around attempt. The 737 was a hull loss. He went to FO for a year and came back as a captain. They wouldn't have even called him into the office if he overflew MSP. I'm not saying these pilots shouldn't be disciplined but a lot of pilots are flying today that have made much worse errors. I think ATL FAA was trying to make up for past lax handling of Delta. No hearing to me means they wanted to show the public while the incident was still top news that they were tough. What ever happened to the pilots at Delta that landed in ATL on a taxiway just before this event? Oh, thats right, Delta is based in ATL.

 

[Fearless Tower]

We had a captain with a day one FO refuse to go around when told to by a controller because of an abort on the runway. He ended up off the runway broken in half when he put the gear up before stopping his descent, tore off the right engine on a very late go around attempt. The 737 was a hull loss. He went to FO for a year and came back as a captain.

Air California at SNA by any chance???

 

[bubbers44]

Yup. It closed the airport for several days.

 

[volav8r1]

I doubt these "pilots" (and I use that term loosly) will be returning to the unfiendly skies again. I wouldn't even trust them as flight instructors. How long will they keep on passing the beer around until it gets warm? Well, another lesson learned in the airline business.

I tried to ignore this comment but just couldn't! You sir are a complete and total IDIOT!!!!!!! No one is defending what these guys did was right. I'm not saying they aren't lying about what happened or that they are handling this well. But to hear some 250 hour "Private Pilot" or "Student Pilot" or whatever it is you are, say that you wouldn't trust these two guys as Flight Instructors is an absolute insult!

It's people like you that make most of us cringe when you come up to the cockpit and tell us that we did something wrong and you know we did, because you are a private pilot! Give me a break! You don't know $HIT!

These guys have had long carreers of safely flying people all over the world & have done it without a single blemish on their record until now. I personally don't understand how this could happen, but I wasn't there. I'm not going to hang them out to dry because I know something that you don't....We all make mistakes as pilots! We fly in the real world of aviation where there are more factors to consider than how scary that 7 knot crosswind is, or how cool you look with your new IFR Kneeboard!

You say you use the term Pilot "Loosely" for these guys?! Really?!
How would you know what a pilot is? Let me be the first to assure you that YOU are NOT a pilot!

Now go call the FBO and get your C-152 topped off with 100LL so you can practice your "Touch & Go's" in the pattern. Just don't forget your MAG Check! Oh, and caution for the Wake Turtbulence from the departing King Air!!! Dumb A$$

 

[Whine Lover]

"We had a captain with a day one FO refuse to go around when told to by a controller because of an abort on the runway. He ended up off the runway broken in half when he put the gear up before stopping his descent, tore off the right engine on a very late go around attempt. The 737 was a hull loss."

" He went to FO for a year and came back as a captain."

Now THAT, is Talent. (!)


YKW

 

[licorice]

Air California at SNA by any chance???

This is off the subject, but where did you get your avatar? Are you a fan of Bonanza Air Lines? The first airplane I ever flew on was a BAL F-27 "silver dart" from Vegas to Reno in 1961...It was thrilling as a 5 yr. old, and I attribute that and later flights on Bonanza F-27s as a big part of my motivation to become a pilot. I was sort of BAL "obsessed" as a kid...do you have any connection with Bonanza?

 

[samballs]

I love reading USA today today, the FO is also saying he should not be suspended because he relies on the Capt to perform his PIC duties, and the Capt failed to act as PIC. great Guy. these 2 have everyone but themselves to blame

 

[skiandsurf]

We had a captain with a day one FO refuse to go around when told to by a controller because of an abort on the runway. He ended up off the runway broken in half when he put the gear up before stopping his descent, tore off the right engine on a very late go around attempt. The 737 was a hull loss. He went to FO for a year and came back as a captain. They wouldn't have even called him into the office if he overflew MSP. I'm not saying these pilots shouldn't be disciplined but a lot of pilots are flying today that have made much worse errors. I think ATL FAA was trying to make up for past lax handling of Delta. No hearing to me means they wanted to show the public while the incident was still top news that they were tough. What ever happened to the pilots at Delta that landed in ATL on a taxiway just before this event? Oh, thats right, Delta is based in ATL.

If you have never nodded off during your flight, you havent been flying very long. We have all done it....the key is to take turns. But have we all landed on a taxiway? That to me is much more dangerous. But what did ever happend to them?

I agree this is all dicked up, when one guy can bend metal or even kill someone and keep his job, where another guy lands safely with no injuries no firetrucks, and gets fired. Wrong.

(just think what will happen next time. Capt to FO "we're going to lose our jobs now, so why not put this plane into headquarters instead of at the gate?". FO " sure, it beats being unemployed".)

 

[Amish RakeFight]

If you have never nodded off during your flight, you havent been flying very long. We have all done it....the key is to take turns. But have we all landed on a taxiway? That to me is much more dangerous. But what did ever happend to them?

I agree this is all dicked up, when one guy can bend metal or even kill someone and keep his job, where another guy lands safely with no injuries no firetrucks, and gets fired. Wrong.

(just think what will happen next time. Capt to FO "we're going to lose our jobs now, so why not put this plane into headquarters instead of at the gate?". FO " sure, it beats being unemployed".)

The latter was a medical emergency so they perhaps were cut some slack. This might better qualify for an ASAP report (and immunity), too.

 

[rumrunner300]

No, they are not getting a hearing; they are getting to appeal an Emergency Revocation.

Appealing an Emergency Revocation is a lot different than going through an investigation and a hearing.

I would suspect that the louder one screams and rails against these guys, the younger and more inexperienced the person is that's making the noise. . . .

This case doesn't directly affect you or me, but the Emergency Revocation without a hearing is very troubling, and the repercussions from this will stink even worse.

Seems to me that the most judgemental pilots among us are not superior aviators, they are just management's wet dream, and you, my friend, are management's wettest dream.

Congratulations, pal. Karma's a bitch, hope you enjoy being married to her.:laugh:

In order:

Paragraph one and two are admitted.

Paragraph three is probably false: 10,000+; 6,000 PIC; Domestic and international. However, nice try.

Paragraph four is a good point but if thought about carefully, may end up getting these guys' tickets back. The seemingly premature and extreme nature of the EO provides, in the hands of a capable defense attorney, a valid claim that the FAA acted in an arbitrary and capricious manner and that reversal by the NTSB is a real possibility.

Paragraph five is just stupid. Management's wet dream is two a$$clown who overfly MSP while on their laptops. Management now has an argument that pilots are undiciplined, careless, and not to be trusted. Great position during negotiations, bent over a f'in laptop.

Parting shot: Yeah, but she can suck a golfball through 100' of garden hose!!

As I previously posted. I can understand how they got into the situation, just not how long they lingered there. Pilots must draw a line somewhere.

 

[rumrunner300]

How much does that high horse of yours eat a day? From what you're leaving behind here in your comments, I way underestimated.

The view is always better from the high road, I just wish it weren't so darn lonely up here lately.

 

[bubbers44]

An FO is just as responsible for the flight as the captain. The only way to blame it all on the captain is to prove you tried to correct the situation but he overrid you because he was the captain. I have stopped several unsafe flights by exerting my power as an FO to not allow the captain to do what he planned. It only happens a few times in a career but it isn't worth letting him do something stupid just to keep your job. I knew I was fired one night in a situation that was obviously not going to work in a rainstorm and he was flying with a 30 knot xwind on a short runway in a 4 engine jet when he was obviously going to not stop from his 400 ft altitude on a 1/4 mile final so when he went to idle I went to go around thrust and went around. I knew I was done but when we came back and finally got in he collapsed for a minute over the controls on the runway to regain his composure. Instead of getting my walking papers since he was the chief pilot I was surprised when he thanked me.

 

[Captzaahlie]

bookmarked so i can add dumb thoughts later.....

 

[Colonel Savage]

"Cole also said in his filing that he shouldn't be punished or his punishment should be mitigated because he relied on Cheney as the pilot in command of the aircraft to fulfill his responsibilities..."

Now he's turning on his Captain, stabbing him in the back like a Klingon looking for advancement.

"...They've also said there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact."

Oh gee, he wasn't in a hurry to get home or anything. They also "forgot" to notify NORAD, in violation of DOD security protocol, until an hour after contact was lost, because they screwed up the handoff and were covering it up.

 

[HOMER D POE]

the only way to try and blame it all on the captain is to prove you tried to correct the situation but he overrid you because he was the captain

if you can whoop his a$$, he will never overrid you.

 

[igneousy2]

The difference between the overflight guys and the taxi-way guys and their handling is that the MSP guys violated a "though shalt not" rule while the ATL taxiway guys did not deliberately land on the taxiway. I agree that an emergency revocation was showboating by the FAA but I don't think the pilots have much chance of getting it overturned.

The FAA felt it needed to make examples out of them...and they did. I just hope that they feel like they have done enough and we don't get a whole bunch of knee jerk regs/laws as a result.

As far as the excuses...the lawyers are just doing what they are paid to do. Anything less would be criminal on their part. Their clients have what could possibly be mitigating factors that should have been considered and they need to be presented.

The excuses seem lame because there are no good excuses left because of the prior statements of the pilots. They would have been far better off saying they both fell asleep. The tone of the arguments on this board and possibly the media would have been far different.

 

[Speedbird34]

Agreed. The "Emergency Revocation" order was ridiculous and over-the-top. Did any of you read it? I did.

These guys were denied due process. We still don't know what happened, and probably never will, since the FAA decided to handle it this way. Most of you guys are on here slamming them, yet no one has heard their side of the story.

You are 100% correct. The ATL FAA handled the case instead of MSP and cruxified the guys. It was unfair and the pilots will get their jobs back. Heard this in training.