North American

[redneck jihad]

If we look at the facts...ATA has the most active pilots, more than World and NAA combined, so they are in the drivers seat. If the stats on APC are correct. And I don't believe anyone is going to get stapled to the bottom or DID I EVER SAY THAT. What the future for us is anyone guess but I would like to know why everyone thinks World is going to get sold. Didn't they just buy a 747?

The fact is that GAL(formerly known as ATA Holdings, which was created after ATA emerged from bankruptcy) is in the drivers seat, since they're the ones that bought World Air Holdings, not ATA.
Also, World is leasing the 744, we don't own any planes, except for maybe one DC10.

 

[CaptSeth]

I don't know how much of a "drivers seat" there is. The only way to get an integration done is to work together regardless. If that happens, anyway.

 

[HalinTexas]

As long as GAL is using one of the carriers to subservice the others, it should happen.

NAA is still doing some of our OAK-OGG flying. Our contract allows that for a limited time, but the company is exceding that time.

I have no doubt that GAL and Mattlin-Patterson, the pinnicle of the pyramid, will one day sell off assets. They're not in this to run an airline, they want to make money and get a return on their investment.

A single list, under one contract with good fragmentation language will protect the whole.

 

[bigboeings]

NAA is still doing some of our OAK-OGG flying. Our contract allows that for a limited time, but the company is exceding that time.

Thats true, but ATA is doing all the Air Jamaica flying too, which we usually do.

 

[CaptSeth]

Thats true, but ATA is doing all the Air Jamaica flying too, which we usually do.

But until you have a collective bargaining agreement, there's not much you can do about it.

 

[xtwapilot]

And what good is a CBA that can't be enforced or is worse than the current policies in place? Should we just accept any old thing GAL puts in front of us to just say we have a CBA? The bottom line is that GAL can do as they please whether there is a contract or not. They told NAA to do the subservice for ATA, and told ATA to do the NAA subservice for Air Jamaica. In any case it adds to GAL's bottom line and that is all they care about. You'll note that one of GAL's goals for 2008 is to go public, so we will all have new owners once again.

XTWAPILOT

 

[bigboeings]

Going public is good news, at least then the financials should not be buried in secrecy like they are now.

 

[HalinTexas]

Like it or not, ATA, NAA and World are privately held companies. Mattlin-Patterson is the owner. They are a hedge fund and they will sell any part or whole of any airline if the price is right.

No one should accept a substandard contract. ATA pilots shouldn't have accepted the cr@p we got "forced" down us in BK. NAA's TA was horrible from what I hear. It was a good thing that you rejected it. Even if NAA has no CBA, it doesn't make it right for ATA or World to take flying away from them.

I've been a very vocal advocate of one list since this "merger" was announced a year ago. All I can hear is crickets. No one really seems to care. I get a "let's wait and see" and "let's open the lines of communication." I've also heard that World IBT doesn't want one list. So, who knows. We'll just keep screwing with each other until everyone is PO'd.

Latest: ATA is going to do some Lagos/intra-Africa flying with B737's. Still waiting on KMIA/C. America contract (Latin Sky) to be inked. Europe with B737's coming soon to a bid packet near you.

One list now! The greater the delay the greater the screwing!

 

[redneck jihad]

L

I've been a very vocal advocate of one list since this "merger" was announced a year ago. All I can hear is crickets. No one really seems to care. I get a "let's wait and see" and "let's open the lines of communication." I've also heard that World IBT doesn't want one list. So, who knows. We'll just keep screwing with each other until everyone is PO'd.

OK, I'll bite, how does one list benefit the World and NA guys? I already know about NA flying ATA stuff, etc. The Teamsters are not interested in one list unless it's a Teamster list, I'm sure ALPA feels the same.

 

[jehtplane]

Latest: ATA is going to do some Lagos/intra-Africa flying with B737's. quote]


Have fun with that, Lagos SUCKS...............

 

[WabiSabi]

I've been a very vocal advocate of one list since this "merger" was announced a year ago. All I can hear is crickets.

I know you put the word "merger" in quotes but I'm still not sure why. WOA, ATA and NAA being under one umbrella is not a merger by any definition.

As for one list. I say no way. I will do anything in my power (which I know is little or nil) to keep that from happening. It would be way too messy. With 3 groups and 2 different unions, the individual airlines' pilot groups will be much better off by staying separate.

 

[JJET44]

I know you put the word "merger" in quotes but I'm still not sure why. WOA, ATA and NAA being under one umbrella is not a merger by any definition.

As for one list. I say no way. I will do anything in my power (which I know is little or nil) to keep that from happening. It would be way too messy. With 3 groups and 2 different unions, the individual airlines' pilot groups will be much better off by staying separate.

Until GAL plays one pilot group against the other 2 during negotiations.
"Sorry pilot group X, if you don't take what we're offering, then all growth will go to airline Y & Z".

 

[HalinTexas]

I know you put the word "merger" in quotes but I'm still not sure why. WOA, ATA and NAA being under one umbrella is not a merger by any definition.

As for one list. I say no way. I will do anything in my power (which I know is little or nil) to keep that from happening. It would be way too messy. With 3 groups and 2 different unions, the individual airlines' pilot groups will be much better off by staying separate.

Can you give me an example? I can give one or two that prove the opposite.

I'll start with DAL and Comair. DAL was THE FIRST to scope OUT RJ flying in 1996. We are all paying for it now. Not the least of which is Comair.

American Eagle. See above.

Each individual carrier under GAL can eventually scope out the others. For example. World could be scoped out by ATA from doing any scheduled survice for the benefit of GAL or MP. What would you (World) do then? Even the crappy Nigeria subservice would be lost to World. Conversely, a united list, under GAL, (with indentured servitude and justice for suck-ups) even with 3 certificates could force GAL into a scope clause that would be beneficial to all the pilots.

I think ALPA sucks, hell all unions pretty much are huge lies, but IBT is worse than ALPA or an independent union. That being said, I'd prefer an in-house.

But you go on. ATA's contract is amendable Oct. 1, and we'll have the first crack at protecting ourselves. Join us or be left behind. NAA doesn't have a contract, therefore no protection at all, and attrition is pretty high there as well, and World's isn't amendable until 2009. Even with ATA's attrocious concilliatory contract, I'd take it over World's any day.

But you go on.

 

[WabiSabi]

Can you give me an example? I can give one or two that prove the opposite.

I'll start with DAL and Comair. DAL was THE FIRST to scope OUT RJ flying in 1996. We are all paying for it now. Not the least of which is Comair.

American Eagle. See above.

Each individual carrier under GAL can eventually scope out the others. For example. World could be scoped out by ATA from doing any scheduled survice for the benefit of GAL or MP. What would you (World) do then? Even the crappy Nigeria subservice would be lost to World. Conversely, a united list, under GAL, (with indentured servitude and justice for suck-ups) even with 3 certificates could force GAL into a scope clause that would be beneficial to all the pilots.

I think ALPA sucks, hell all unions pretty much are huge lies, but IBT is worse than ALPA or an independent union. That being said, I'd prefer an in-house.

But you go on. ATA's contract is amendable Oct. 1, and we'll have the first crack at protecting ourselves. Join us or be left behind. NAA doesn't have a contract, therefore no protection at all, and attrition is pretty high there as well, and World's isn't amendable until 2009. Even with ATA's attrocious concilliatory contract, I'd take it over World's any day.

But you go on.

Well no. There are several problems with your analogies.....apples and oranges. Do you actually think that one list would be beneficial to all 3 groups? DAL and Comair are not comparable to ATA and World not in scope, not in the least. World is all contract and ad hoc. ATA is scheduled and they're having issues with bringing DC-10's on line for adhoc or AMC. As for profit, given that World has posted profit and ATA hasn't, World's management is much more efficient than ATA's. (BTW; I'm not saying one pilot group is better than the other). However, ATA's management seems to be out to lunch given that they were the only scheduled airline in the red when all the other scheds were in the black.....pre $100 /barrel oil.

Down to brass tacks. World has the largest percentage of AMC business. ATA and NAA aren't far behind. As far as the gov't is concerned, they don't put all of thier eggs into one carrier....hence the benefit for GAL to keep all 3 separate. Beneficial to GAL, beneficial to the individual pilot groups.

Answer the other question; How would one list be beneficial to all 3 pilot groups? My answer; It wouldn't.

However, it is apparent that you're just anti union in general. Given this and considering only this, your one list stance makes sense.

As for you taking ATA's contract over World's. Pay isn't everything but, it counts for a lot so it is a good place to start, Let's see, it takes a 12 year Captain at ATA to make a year one Captain rate at WOA. Take what you want but I opt for WOA's contract.

Now you go on.

 

[HalinTexas]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

ATA Holdings bought the DC10's. ATA Airlines was supposed to get 7-9 to operate. ATA Holdings changed it's name, created a Delaware company, and bought WLDA. GAL gave 3-4 of ATA Airlines' DC10s to World Airlines. World did not buy them. If effect, ATA Airlines saved World's jobs, since you were forced to give up MD-11's.

I'm sorry you think that flying an airplane, once you've got the doors closed, is different. As a pilot, you fly every airplane the same way. You don't fly it a charter way one day and then scheduled the next. We are responsible for flying airplanes, nothing else. So even if they're "apples and oranges" they're still fruit. If DAL had not scoped out RJ's, AMR most likely would not have or created a flow-back, nor would CAL, etc. But, then again, pilots eat their own for personal gain, and unions make it tasty.

I'm not gonna defend ATA's mangement. So I'll give you that one. But the success you seem to think World was having was not shared by all. No airline of the three has the right to claim the GAL cash cow.

The pay scale you're so proud of was negotiated out of bankruptcy. You had to threaten strike to get it. All of the CA's at ATA are 12+ years. ATA's present contract was coerced under bankruptcy threats. It reflects an 18% paycut off of 2003 wages. We have recouped some of that pay. ATA's DC10 pay is greater than World's, and I've been told by some that have worked for both, ATA's concessionary contract is better than World's. I'm a 10th year FO now on the B737. I'm 97 numbers off of the bottom of the active list of 587 (902 total). If there was no bankruptcy I'd be making just under $184/hr as B73 CA. I probably could have held B757 CA by now as well. Our 401k has remained the same, but our CMPP (b-fund) should be 7.5%, it's now 2.5%.

I'm tired of sacrificing my career for the benefit of others. There are many CA's at ATA that have upgraded since bankruptcy that were never captains before at any carrier. World and NAA are hiring. They're not hiring exclusively from our furlough list, but some are going there. We are each flying the others' business.

If you're happy at World, then fine. Good for you. I will not vote for a contract, which will probably come before you get yours updated, that does not protect my career vis-a-vis inadequate scope.

Good luck.

 

[servicemonkey]

I

ATA Holdings bought the DC10's. ATA Airlines was supposed to get 7-9 to operate.

Are your sure about about your numbers there? Though I don't really know, all I've got to go on is past rumor/speculation of MX reps, Ops reps, other pilots and, of course, various web sites. Even before GAL and all, I never heard that ATA would operate 7-9 DC10s. So, if you're real, real sure that ATA was "supposed" to operate at least 7 of those planes and not that GAL had to take them all or none, then post your source. Thanks.

 

[WabiSabi]

I'm sorry you feel that way.

ATA Holdings bought the DC10's. ATA Airlines was supposed to get 7-9 to operate. ATA Holdings changed it's name, created a Delaware company, and bought WLDA. GAL gave 3-4 of ATA Airlines' DC10s to World Airlines. World did not buy them. If effect, ATA Airlines saved World's jobs, since you were forced to give up MD-11's.

I'm sorry you think that flying an airplane, once you've got the doors closed, is different. As a pilot, you fly every airplane the same way. You don't fly it a charter way one day and then scheduled the next. We are responsible for flying airplanes, nothing else. So even if they're "apples and oranges" they're still fruit. If DAL had not scoped out RJ's, AMR most likely would not have or created a flow-back, nor would CAL, etc. But, then again, pilots eat their own for personal gain, and unions make it tasty.

I'm not gonna defend ATA's mangement. So I'll give you that one. But the success you seem to think World was having was not shared by all. No airline of the three has the right to claim the GAL cash cow.

The pay scale you're so proud of was negotiated out of bankruptcy. You had to threaten strike to get it. All of the CA's at ATA are 12+ years. ATA's present contract was coerced under bankruptcy threats. It reflects an 18% paycut off of 2003 wages. We have recouped some of that pay. ATA's DC10 pay is greater than World's, and I've been told by some that have worked for both, ATA's concessionary contract is better than World's. I'm a 10th year FO now on the B737. I'm 97 numbers off of the bottom of the active list of 587 (902 total). If there was no bankruptcy I'd be making just under $184/hr as B73 CA. I probably could have held B757 CA by now as well. Our 401k has remained the same, but our CMPP (b-fund) should be 7.5%, it's now 2.5%.

I'm tired of sacrificing my career for the benefit of others. There are many CA's at ATA that have upgraded since bankruptcy that were never captains before at any carrier. World and NAA are hiring. They're not hiring exclusively from our furlough list, but some are going there. We are each flying the others' business.

If you're happy at World, then fine. Good for you. I will not vote for a contract, which will probably come before you get yours updated, that does not protect my career vis-a-vis inadequate scope.

Good luck.

You misunderstood me. I do not think that actually flying an airplane charter or scheduled is different. What I meant by apples and oranges is your comparison to DAL/Comair to ATA/World/NAA. The comparison is too different from a scope and business model perspective.

As for the pay scales, I know ours and I just used the data from APC for ATA's pay scale.

As for the rest, we'll agree to disagree.

Good luck to you too.

 

[JJET44]

World and NAA are hiring. They're not hiring exclusively from our furlough list, but some are going there.

Send all your fuloughees, I would bet my next pay check that they would all be hired before others. If not , there's something wrong.

 

[HalinTexas]

Are your sure about about your numbers there? Though I don't really know, all I've got to go on is past rumor/speculation of MX reps, Ops reps, other pilots and, of course, various web sites. Even before GAL and all, I never heard that ATA would operate 7-9 DC10s. So, if you're real, real sure that ATA was "supposed" to operate at least 7 of those planes and not that GAL had to take them all or none, then post your source. Thanks.

I work for ATA. My source is company info. If you know me, you'll know that I'm not a casual observer of the industry or the company I work for. Remember: we have the same boss(es).

We announced the purchase of DC10's from NWA in Dec. of 2006. I think Omni was going to get some too. The company announcement said that we would get 9 but probably operate only 7, keeping 2 for parts. Then John Dennison retired placing Karnik in his place.

The rumors of World began in Feb. of '07. A month later we hear it's true.

The first bids for DC-10 were in May of last year, and that is when they said we were probably only going to use 4 of them, giving 3-4 to World. Mgt. said that it would fall inline with keeping 6-7 widebodies in our fleet.

 

[CCDiscoB]

...it doesn't make it right for ATA or World to take flying away from [NAA]....

I don't see it happening that way, at least I'd like to think that. We (all three of us) don't have enough aircraft to operate all the business that is out there. What I've seen is WOA sub-servicing NAA when they were acft limited. Having said that, I can't speak to what's happening out in Hawaii.
One thing for sure, GAL wants more PAX sub-service. Hence ATA bringing their 737s to Africa and WOA flying Europe to Namibia next month. Jee, where are we geting the aircraft for all this? I guess we could stop flying AMC.