Non-certified aircraft and known ice?

[Guitar rocker]

Yah, you sure can fly a non certified aircraft into known or forecast icing....as in, it's your call. I wouldnt say it's legal, but heres a few other points to consider....

The problem with looking into the sky and seeing a little glimpse of blue through the clouds and assuming that you will be cleared right on through and into the clear is this..........if after takeoff, ATC sticks you right in the tops and cant get you higher or lower, there you are stuck in the ice. Surely you will have to speak up and if the controller is forced to move someone else so as to accomodate you or if worse comes to worse and you have to declare an emergency, then ATC might be giving you a number to call. Then the tapes are rolling.

I had a friend that was flying an approach in a C310 (this one not certified for known icing) and he had to descend through a relatively thin layer of clouds to his destination airport where icing was forecast. He landed with a small amount of ice but without incident. Except that the FAA was there that morning doing ramp checks and he got a violation.

Overall, it's not worth the risk, the lawyers fees, or the thought of suspension or revocation of your liscense to fly in forecast or known icing in an aircraft that isnt certified for icing. Afterall, just when you think that you have gotten away with it, I guess you had better see who may be roaming around the airport with a his/her 110A badge and watching.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You can dress it up any way you like. Clear air, fine. So add a little puffy fair wx cumulus clous, and that's okay. If that's okay, how about a thin layer? If that's okay how about a thicker layer? If that's okay how about flight above the thin or thick layer? Justify it by making it flat beneath, and then having a high ceiling...that way you can still pick a forced landing site when descending without power.

Seeing as flight in the thicker layer is fine, how about just flat out flying IMC everywhere? Justify it by degrees, but it's still justification.

As a younger pilot I took occasion to find myself in a single engine airplane in IMC, once upon a time. I experienced an engine failure, and descending from the cloud base put me over a gravel strip upon which I landed, without power.

There were engine failures before, and I've had them since...but of all, that one stands out as quite possibly one of the dumbest learning experiences into which I could have placed myself, and from which I am quite fortunate to have survived.

I've seen a lot of ways to justify doing something in an aircraft, and I'm guilty of many of them myself in times past...for that very reason I preach long and hard against the pratice, and I do it based on personal experience. I'd surely hate for someone to try to re-learn that lesson and not be nearly as fortunate.

So...that would be a "no".

 

[mustangpilot]

Wow avbug needs to cool their jets a bit. So far I think you have said about one thing that is factual,,, flight into known icing (forecast, or reported) is illegal in a non-approved airplane. I have seen pilots do it, and come back fine. I have seen pilots do it and never return. Is this stupid and illegal,, absolutely.
Now when you start getting all bent out of shape about flying a single engine IMC starts making me wonder. I have flown skyhawk- bonaza-cherokee- 206ect,, the list goes on,, into imc and I am still here to talk about it. Did I do my homework on the weather,,, and made sure I gave myself a buffer and yes I am still here. I even had failures while hard IMC,,,, thats what the friendly instructor was for when he gave you all that partial panel training during instrument training. there is nothing that says you have to go up on a day thats 200 and 1/2,, but can't remember how many students I have taken up on great IMC days and not had a problem because we were smart about it. Awos, Atis,Hiwas,FSS are all there during flight for a reason.
I will admit it is dangerous flying a single engine into IMC but flying can be a little exciting sometimes. You put a baby twin in the same weather and throw in a little problems and you make for a worse situation than in the single, especially with a pilot thats out of proficiency.
you have all the ratings and have flown all the airplanes out there huh? (insert sarcasim)

 

[Say Again Over]

I drive a YZFR6 to work, now that IS dangerous.:nuts:

 

[Cat Driver]

We all form our own safety and or comfort limits when it comes to what, when or where we fly.

Mine are that I do not fly single engine aircraft at night x/country, over water beyond gliding distance of land or IFR in IMC.

Also I do not fly single pilot IFR..

Now here is my question, does all the above make me an unskilled or poor decision making pilot?

 

[minitour]

Now here is my question, does all the above make me an unskilled or poor decision making pilot?

Honestly, I think when pilots set personal limitations (whatever they may be) and stick to them, it shows the opposite of an unskilled or poor decision making pilot.

I'd trust my wife to a person who says "no" when the conditions are below his/her personal limitations more so than someone who says "ok" just to get the flight done.

IMO

-mini

 

[mustangpilot]

I could not agree more with Minitour, we all must set our personal limits. The best pilots are those who know the regs and base thier own limits off those. So having personal limits does not make you a unskilled pilot its just the opposite from my seat.

 

[mustangpilot]

Awesome man, I drive a CBR to work every day so I know what you mean about being a little nuts. I like the term,,, "Extra Excitment" instead of dangerous.

 

[avbug]

NoNow when you start getting all bent out of shape about flying a single engine IMC starts making me wonder. I have flown skyhawk- bonaza-cherokee- 206ect,, the list goes on,, into imc and I am still here to talk about it....I will admit it is dangerous flying a single engine into IMC but flying can be a little exciting sometimes.

That's your position? That it's dangerous and your survived...therefore it's okay? Perhaps because it's exciting that it's okay, right? The wisdom of inexperience is founded in justification...but apparently just not very good justification. Thrill seeking should never be the foundation of your aeronautical decision making...save that for your CBR.

Another Cirrus deployed a parachute yesterday in severe ice in Alabama. And managed to submit a PIREP of severe icing while descending under canopy after losing control and activating the CAPS system on board. This with SIGMETs, forecasts, and reports of severe icing, in a weather system spawning all kinds of severe activity, including tornados. It seems brilliance knows no end.

They probably got a thrill too...and they survived. Which by your own standard makes it perfectly okay. You got it pegged, mate.

 

[Cat Driver]

Quote:

" The best pilots are those who know the regs and base thier own limits off those. "

Conversley I have known many pilots who "Knew the regs " and I wouldn't let them fly a hand launched toy.

Knowing the regs can be very time consuming and not always all that connected to safety, because regs are dependent on which country you are flying in at any given time.

I can honestly state that I fly in countries that have regs I have no idea of...and I do not think that it has become a safety issue for me yet.

But that is getting us off the subject here.

 

[minitour]

That's your position? That it's dangerous and your survived...therefore it's okay? Perhaps because it's exciting that it's okay, right? The wisdom of inexperience is founded in justification...but apparently just not very good justification. Thrill seeking should never be the foundation of your aeronautical decision making...save that for your CBR.

I have to wonder what your position is on: sky diving, base jumping, scuba diving, walking down the street, smoking, etc.

All are dangerous, but people do them every day. Are they foolish for doing such things?

-mini

 

[mcjohn]

About a week after I got my instrument rating, the weather was bad and all I wanted to do was take advantage of my new rating. Ceiling was 500' and I hopped in a PA-28-161 on a mission to go have lunch with my dad, 2 hours away. 1st time alone in IMC, no autopilot, plane was probably hanging on a thread for IMC legal and fully analog. Flew into KDNL's only approach that would work for me, an NDB. I popped out at 700' agl all sweatin' and stuff (NDBs suck!) Had lunch and went home with all the same misery. I took the flight b/c I had to. Avbug, unless you work for the insurance company or something, then you just had some bad experiences that are making you flip on this subject. Why do we fly? Do we fly because it's so safe? Or because of the challenge and efficiency of travel?
p.s. --Only referring to private endevors. I refused to let my wife go with me.

 

[USMCmech]

I will admit it is dangerous flying a single engine into IMC

Flying any airplane at any time under any conditions can be dangerous.

How much danger you accept is up to you.

Sitting on your couch and watching TV is considered risk free, but actually it is almost always fatal if continued long enough (heart disease, diabetes, ect). Skydiving is considered extreamly dangerous, but in reality sport jumping has acumulated an impressive safety record.



I really hate to break it to everybody, but you are all going to die someday. Just make sure you lived while you were alive.

I know a half dozen people who have died while flying . I fully expect for that number to climb. There is a real possiblity I could meet the same fate. None of this will keep me from doing what I love.

 

[avbug]

I have to wonder what your position is on: sky diving, base jumping, scuba diving, walking down the street, smoking, etc.

All are dangerous...

Skydiving is considered extreamly dangerous...

Skydiving is considered dangerous by the ignorant...but it is not dangerous, nor does one who is informed consider it so.

I do not consider it dangerous. A hazard becomes a risk when it is put in play. The risk can then be removed or mitigated such that it is no longer a risk. Flying to altitude in a jump aircraft represents a hazard, which becomes a risk when one exits the door. The risk is mitigated by numerous factors, from technologically advanced dual backpack parachute systems to advanced training, and of course, experience. The jump itself is not dangerous. The fall is not dangerous. The opening is not dangerous.

High risk jumps such as low level combat insertions, night tactical operations, etc, pose a certain amount of danger...but a sport parachute jump, a normal descent from altitude using an automatic activation device such as a Cypress, with a dual parachute system using a freebag reserve container, audible and visual altimeters, etc...there's a whole lot of routine activities that's far more statistically "dangerous," such that a sport parachute jump can hardly be called a danger.

I don't know anybody that jumps that considers it dangerous. Certainly you'll find a person here or there that has one jump under their belt who is an expert on the subject and thinks it's dangerous...but I know a lot of jumpers with thousands of jumps under their belt who would staunchly disagree.

Certainly the statistics don't bear it out...there's a popular bumpersticker that says "remember when sex was safe, and skydiving was dangerous?"

Lots of wisdom in that.

 

[mcjohn]

That's a bunch f'cking B.S. How about "Mavrick, you're dangerous."
or how about:
"Slider (sniff,sniff) you stink."

Combat insertions, dual Cypress what, audible whaaaa?