No Military for CAL?

[Captain X]

Has anyone heard a rumor that Continental isn't hiring Guard or Reserve guys now because of the threat of military leave?

There are 3 military guys in my class right now and 2 in the class that followed us.

 

[AlbieF15]

Contact USERRA.

By the way...define "mil leave abuse". Who decides what is or is not important enough work to justify being on orders? If a reservist activates for 30 days over the holiday so the overworked active duty guys get a break, is that somehow wrong? Why should the airline employees be more protected from working a holiday than an active duty service person?

Employers have the right to call military units requesting relief from taskings. They usually don't--because they know they'll come off as unpatriotic or not supportive. Instead--they individually pressure employees who are on leave. What does the reservist/guardsman say who is asked to pony up and work over the holidays so some over-worked active duty guys can have time off? "Sorry--bad time...they'll need to suck it up. But ask me again in January and perhaps they can go take some leave then?"

Employers need to quit badgering the guy or gal caught in the no-win middle of these fights and contact their USERRA omsbudsman and/or the employees military supervisors.

Every unit is different. Every story is different. Nailing someone because they had to perform duty when it was "inconvenient" for the airline without getting the full story is wrong. The guy who dropped a month may have done so to go to Red Flag or another similar training event that are hard to get every 2-3 years... That week that conflicted with a "bad trip" may have been so he could get his night squares done for the year--sometimes tough for part-timers when the unit only has 7-8 periods a year on a night schedule. For Viper guys---masters of many trades--the chance to do SEAD, CAS, or Maverick rides may be limited due to range availablity. These guys will go when they can get the training.

Turn on CNN. Count the stories about all the guys who hate us and want to kill us. Then rethink why we have the reserve forces. There are some good deals to being part of the team, but there is also a heck of a lot of work and responsiblity. I've said this before, but for most guys doing both jobs you soon find out you really just can't make everyone happy, and sometimes you just have to suck it up and get it done.

 

[THEPRFCT10]

A Hornet's Nest Disturbed?!

Great info, guys...I heard the rumor from a CAL FO who I've been talking to. He just said that currently CAL is not hiring Reservists or Guard guys because of I guess the very few who seem to abuse the system, maybe? Of course they can find just about any other reason as to not hire someone. I was unaware that they cannot bring up the military thing during the interview if in fact that is against the law...thoughts?

 

[ToThePain]

CAL asked me if I was going to continue service in the reserves (I was coming off active duty). I told them that I had not commited myself towards that and that was a decission that I would have to make with my family. I also said if I did choose participate in the reserves I understood that my primary job was CAL. I left it at that and they asked no more questions regarding reserves. Hope this helps.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

CAL asked me if I was going to continue service in the reserves (I was coming off active duty). I told them that I had not commited myself towards that and that was a decission that I would have to make with my family. I also said if I did choose participate in the reserves I understood that my primary job was CAL. I left it at that and they asked no more questions regarding reserves. Hope this helps.

Hope all is well big boy...and get to that 777 already will you? I need the bump.

But to keep the thread drift minimal...I'll post something hopefully of some minimal worth. Use common sense. That's all. I wasn't in the military but I have done a lot of union work and have dealt with management on a variety of issues. I also know a lot of good people who have no problems with their Guard/Reserve time because they know that their primary job is their airline. They also know that orders come up and things happen that require leave from time to time. The airline knows that and understands that. They also know who the bad apples are and they can spot them from a mile away. They have seen all the tricks in the book. So as long as you exercise some common sense and think with your big head, all will go fine.

The rumor of CAL not hiring Guard/Reserve guys just simply isn't true. I spent an hour on the phone with a great guy tonight who flies in the Guard and he interviews soon...and he shouldn't have any problem getting hired either. I look forward to buying him a congratulatory beer after he gets the class date. I know of another Reserve pilot who interviews soon as well and shouldn't have any problems.

-Neal

 

[ToThePain]

Hope all is well big boy...and get to that 777 already will you? I need the bump.

But to keep the thread drift minimal...I'll post something hopefully of some minimal worth. Use common sense. That's all. I wasn't in the military but I have done a lot of union work and have dealt with management on a variety of issues. I also know a lot of good people who have no problems with their Guard/Reserve time because they know that their primary job is their airline. They also know that orders come up and things happen that require leave from time to time. The airline knows that and understands that. They also know who the bad apples are and they can spot them from a mile away. They have seen all the tricks in the book. So as long as you exercise some common sense and think with your big head, all will go fine.

The rumor of CAL not hiring Guard/Reserve guys just simply isn't true. I spent an hour on the phone with a great guy tonight who flies in the Guard and he interviews soon...and he shouldn't have any problem getting hired either. I look forward to buying him a congratulatory beer after he gets the class date. I know of another Reserve pilot who interviews soon as well and shouldn't have any problems.

-Neal

I keep bidding for 777 training and keep rolling snake eyes. They only released one 737 EWR FO in Nov, one in Dec and two in Jan for 777 training. There are 23 of us from the Aug 06 bid (from EWR) so I'm guessing that it won't be till May/June. I'll buy the beer whn it happens

 

[skiddriver]

When I was the active duty site commander for the Marine units at NAS New Orleans, I had the Chief Pilot from ACA (pre-Independence) call me with a complaint about one of our reserve pilots, who eventually went on to be the unit Det OIC.

This gent explained that he couldn't understand how he could complete his USNR obligation at the Pentagon in one weekend a month, while "our" pilot needed more time than that.

I explained that flying an aircraft was different than flying a desk and that any orders I signed were valid and not for him to question. I offered to contact the Louisiana ESGR and let them mediate any dispute.

Never heard from him again.

 

[psysicx]

So is it legal to ask you if you plan on staying in the Guard?

 

[JungleJett]

Of the almost seven years I have been with the airlines, I have spent nearly 2.5 of them combined on some sort of mil leave, most of it after 9/11. The company has been very supportive save for a few people. When I was hired, I was asked if I had planned to continue my military service too which my answer was a very strong affirmative. Lately, my military service has suffered due to my work schedule and that is something I am struggling with. It is hard to do both and do them both well. I have a brand new daughter and commute to both jobs. It is hard but the satisfaction I get from both makes it worth it.

Being in the military is as much a part of me as breathing. If I were asked to choose between the airlines and the military, I know what I would choose. Those that have not worn the uniform will never know how it feels and sometimes it takes some explaining for them to understand why we do what we do. When they get a feel for the "why" and "how" they tend to lighten up a bit.

 

[Huggyu2]

So is it legal to ask you if you plan on staying in the Guard?

Yes, it is legal. However, denying you employment based on that answer IS illegal.
So, let's say they've asked you "the question", and you don't get hired. Do you have to prove that you were denied employment because of this? No. Under USERRA, it is sufficient for you to prove that your Guard/Reserve affiliation was a motivating factor in the prospective employer's decision not to hire you. If you prove that, the burden of proof shifts to employer to prove that, even If you had not been a Guardsman/Reservist, you would not have been hired, for a lawful reason unrelated to your Guard/Reserve affiliation.
One of the top USERRA law experts says that, in his opinion, the burden shifts mainly because of this: why does an employer ask a question at an interview? Well, it's to determine whether they want to hire you or not. If it wasn't a factor, then why did it come up?

If you think you've been denied benefits or a job due to your military affiliation, or just getting a hard time, contact the National Committee for Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve (NCESGR) at 1-800-336-4590. You may also wish to visit the NCESGR~ Web site at www.esgr.com.

 

[AlbieF15]

Skiddriver for King.

 

[pkober]

Contact USERRA.

By the way...define "mil leave abuse". Who decides what is or is not important enough work to justify being on orders? If a reservist activates for 30 days over the holiday so the overworked active duty guys get a break, is that somehow wrong? Why should the airline employees be more protected from working a holiday than an active duty service person?

Employers have the right to call military units requesting relief from taskings. They usually don't--because they know they'll come off as unpatriotic or not supportive. Instead--they individually pressure employees who are on leave. What does the reservist/guardsman say who is asked to pony up and work over the holidays so some over-worked active duty guys can have time off? "Sorry--bad time...they'll need to suck it up. But ask me again in January and perhaps they can go take some leave then?"

Employers need to quit badgering the guy or gal caught in the no-win middle of these fights and contact their USERRA omsbudsman and/or the employees military supervisors.

Every unit is different. Every story is different. Nailing someone because they had to perform duty when it was "inconvenient" for the airline without getting the full story is wrong. The guy who dropped a month may have done so to go to Red Flag or another similar training event that are hard to get every 2-3 years... That week that conflicted with a "bad trip" may have been so he could get his night squares done for the year--sometimes tough for part-timers when the unit only has 7-8 periods a year on a night schedule. For Viper guys---masters of many trades--the chance to do SEAD, CAS, or Maverick rides may be limited due to range availablity. These guys will go when they can get the training.

Turn on CNN. Count the stories about all the guys who hate us and want to kill us. Then rethink why we have the reserve forces. There are some good deals to being part of the team, but there is also a heck of a lot of work and responsiblity. I've said this before, but for most guys doing both jobs you soon find out you really just can't make everyone happy, and sometimes you just have to suck it up and get it done.

JungleJett,

Chief three brats says hi and wants you to call him so you can go out and grab a beer. That should give you nightmares.

Albie,

I agree that as part timers we are being pulled in many different directions. Im a "guard baby" and have been a airline pilot for most of my time in the guard. My holiday reference was about the guys who takes 3 days of mil leave over Christmas at the last minute. We've all seen it. They show up at the unit and sign the book and go home. That doesn't help any of us in the ANG/AFRC. I'm not talking about the guys doing an AEF over the holidays. I bet they rather be flying a airline trip that sitting in sh*tastan. I'm also not talking about the guys sitting alert. There are tons of guys doing legit duty over the holidays, it's just the few that play the system and screw the rest.

Agreed about the people who want to hurt us. Now a days you can't wait until the last minute to get profecient. I was activated on a Saturday and building my tent on a Thursday. That's why I make every effort to stay ahead of the curve at the Guard.

 

[JungleJett]

JungleJett,

Chief three brats says hi and wants you to call him so you can go out and grab a beer. That should give you nightmares.

As long as Three Brats doesnt catch you with your sunglasses on your head while in a chow hall in the middle of f'ing nowhere, you will avoid his wrath. I am a little surprised he is still alive. I thought he would go home and stroke out after going back to the humdrum life as a cop and not being able to bust people for some useless crap! At least I scored a coin from him. Give him a big kiss on his huge bald melon.

 

[pkober]

I just did an ORI with him. I've never seen web gear that tight.

 

[AlbieF15]

True story...

Key West NAS sometime last year. Boozing after hard DACT deployment against our Homestead Viper adversaries. Doing the all ranks beach club thing (read: crap on officers clubs). Sr Enlisted Dude walks up to a Major (active duty) bro of mine and says "SIR...can I PLEASE get you to REMOVE those sunglasses from your HEAD...SIR.." Said major does a quick cost/benefit computation and realizes nothing to be won, lots to be lost...so he complys.

Meanwhile--yours truely---one each ANG LTC in same uniform has a Baseball hat with Mr Bones (our mascot) proudly displayed and glasses with strap around my neck. He says nothing. Guys are table are going WTF? amongst themselves and wondering why didn't he roll in on me. That was the day they learned that some guys in the ANG are inbriefed into a black world cloaking device program, and often find said device very helpful when TDY.

(Side rant) By the way...I quit the O Clubs in 2002 when they discussed going to all-rank at our base. Both the officer and enlisted force need a place to unwind unmolested, and putting them together with a lot of booze at the end of a long week has never struck me as helping the morale of either camp. There are times and places to interact, and times and places to be separate. I realize the ANG has done a great job with all-rank clubs, but for some reason when the active duty tries it the results are fraternization cases for the jag and a lot of other trouble. (cease side rant)

 

[pkober]

That's because in the Guard most people were enlisted before they were officers and have been in that unit there entire career. Plus rank is only there due to a requirement to be in that rank for that job. It's all about getting the job done. Not rank and shined shoes. If a hard roller rank happy guy gets in to our unit it only takes one, maybe two, trips with our E's for him to be broken of that gay habit. They usually don't get hired to begin with.

 

[Fox-Tree]

That's because in the Guard most people were enlisted before they were officers and have been in that unit there entire career.......

???WTF???

:laugh: Not the pilots. Where's your info coming from. All prior enlisted? I don't think so. A much higher percentage of pilots (at least fighter pilots) per unit started out active duty (and definitely not prior enlisted).

 

[JungleJett]

???WTF???

:laugh: Not the pilots. Where's your info coming from. All prior enlisted? I don't think so. A much higher percentage of pilots (at least fighter pilots) per unit started out active duty (and definitely not prior enlisted).

Uhh....hmmm.....he never said "ALL".

A good fighter unit will look within when hiring those that have busted thier ass in hopes of a UPT slot. I know more than a few fighter pilots.

We have a ton of former enlisted folks in our rated officer ranks. In fact our unit prefers to hire from within. I would not say a majority is from the enlisted ranks but a pretty sizable portion. Honestly, I have found those that have come from the enlisted ranks make better officers...but that is just my opinion. By the way, our Wing Commander is former enlisted as was our last AG for Air.

As for the clubs being segregated, yeah........in the fighter community maybe. In the airlift community, since we work together and we usually play together and usually play nice. Some of my closest friends are officers. I understand and appreciate the importance of rank in a military organization but have also seen its dark side. (Former Army) Guys that walk around looking at their shoulders all the time are pretty much singled out as being tools and spend a lot of time on thier own...O' or E' Club.

It comes down to respect I guess. Thank God I was never AD.

 

[JungleJett]

Since I cannot edit my post, please remove the respect comment at the end. Poor wording on my part and it was not meant to imply that any officer or enlisted person does not respect the other.

I think in the fighter community, there is a lack of shared interest/experience that may widen the gap. You guys go fly your single seat airplane and debrief when you get back. The enlisted guy is out there putting the jet to bed. In the airlift community, we fly together, we debrief together, and then hit the club together.

That enlisted kid working the flight line may want to be a pilot, yet does not understand the world in which you guys live. Maybe sharing a beer at the bar is not such a bad thing as it may give the opportunity to share some knowledge or pass along some advice in a more "comfortable" forum.

 

[pkober]

???WTF???

:laugh: Not the pilots. Where's your info coming from. All prior enlisted? I don't think so. A much higher percentage of pilots (at least fighter pilots) per unit started out active duty (and definitely not prior enlisted).

My info. I don't know. Maybe being a Guard Baby all my military career. Maybe that's not enough. Having sat on UPT boards, maybe not enough.

90% of our UPT selectees are prior enlisted. Mostly from the back of the airplane. I know plenty of units, fighter also, that hire mostly from within their own enlisted ranks. They have a proven record going into the interview and that helps. That's why at most UPT class graduations the Guard guys have more than just the CNN and basic training ribbon.

Alot of units would rather hire new guys and send them thru UPT and have them be Guard guys from day one. It's easier than having to break some ones active dutyisms. There's always going to be guys from active duty in Guard units, since you seem to think I said ALL guard pilots are prior enlisted.

Hopefully this won't turn into Guard vs. AD.