No Military for CAL?

[AlbieF15]

Skiddriver for King.

 

[pkober]

Contact USERRA.

By the way...define "mil leave abuse". Who decides what is or is not important enough work to justify being on orders? If a reservist activates for 30 days over the holiday so the overworked active duty guys get a break, is that somehow wrong? Why should the airline employees be more protected from working a holiday than an active duty service person?

Employers have the right to call military units requesting relief from taskings. They usually don't--because they know they'll come off as unpatriotic or not supportive. Instead--they individually pressure employees who are on leave. What does the reservist/guardsman say who is asked to pony up and work over the holidays so some over-worked active duty guys can have time off? "Sorry--bad time...they'll need to suck it up. But ask me again in January and perhaps they can go take some leave then?"

Employers need to quit badgering the guy or gal caught in the no-win middle of these fights and contact their USERRA omsbudsman and/or the employees military supervisors.

Every unit is different. Every story is different. Nailing someone because they had to perform duty when it was "inconvenient" for the airline without getting the full story is wrong. The guy who dropped a month may have done so to go to Red Flag or another similar training event that are hard to get every 2-3 years... That week that conflicted with a "bad trip" may have been so he could get his night squares done for the year--sometimes tough for part-timers when the unit only has 7-8 periods a year on a night schedule. For Viper guys---masters of many trades--the chance to do SEAD, CAS, or Maverick rides may be limited due to range availablity. These guys will go when they can get the training.

Turn on CNN. Count the stories about all the guys who hate us and want to kill us. Then rethink why we have the reserve forces. There are some good deals to being part of the team, but there is also a heck of a lot of work and responsiblity. I've said this before, but for most guys doing both jobs you soon find out you really just can't make everyone happy, and sometimes you just have to suck it up and get it done.

JungleJett,

Chief three brats says hi and wants you to call him so you can go out and grab a beer. That should give you nightmares.

Albie,

I agree that as part timers we are being pulled in many different directions. Im a "guard baby" and have been a airline pilot for most of my time in the guard. My holiday reference was about the guys who takes 3 days of mil leave over Christmas at the last minute. We've all seen it. They show up at the unit and sign the book and go home. That doesn't help any of us in the ANG/AFRC. I'm not talking about the guys doing an AEF over the holidays. I bet they rather be flying a airline trip that sitting in sh*tastan. I'm also not talking about the guys sitting alert. There are tons of guys doing legit duty over the holidays, it's just the few that play the system and screw the rest.

Agreed about the people who want to hurt us. Now a days you can't wait until the last minute to get profecient. I was activated on a Saturday and building my tent on a Thursday. That's why I make every effort to stay ahead of the curve at the Guard.

 

[JungleJett]

JungleJett,

Chief three brats says hi and wants you to call him so you can go out and grab a beer. That should give you nightmares.

As long as Three Brats doesnt catch you with your sunglasses on your head while in a chow hall in the middle of f'ing nowhere, you will avoid his wrath. I am a little surprised he is still alive. I thought he would go home and stroke out after going back to the humdrum life as a cop and not being able to bust people for some useless crap! At least I scored a coin from him. Give him a big kiss on his huge bald melon.

 

[pkober]

I just did an ORI with him. I've never seen web gear that tight.

 

[AlbieF15]

True story...

Key West NAS sometime last year. Boozing after hard DACT deployment against our Homestead Viper adversaries. Doing the all ranks beach club thing (read: crap on officers clubs). Sr Enlisted Dude walks up to a Major (active duty) bro of mine and says "SIR...can I PLEASE get you to REMOVE those sunglasses from your HEAD...SIR.." Said major does a quick cost/benefit computation and realizes nothing to be won, lots to be lost...so he complys.

Meanwhile--yours truely---one each ANG LTC in same uniform has a Baseball hat with Mr Bones (our mascot) proudly displayed and glasses with strap around my neck. He says nothing. Guys are table are going WTF? amongst themselves and wondering why didn't he roll in on me. That was the day they learned that some guys in the ANG are inbriefed into a black world cloaking device program, and often find said device very helpful when TDY.

(Side rant) By the way...I quit the O Clubs in 2002 when they discussed going to all-rank at our base. Both the officer and enlisted force need a place to unwind unmolested, and putting them together with a lot of booze at the end of a long week has never struck me as helping the morale of either camp. There are times and places to interact, and times and places to be separate. I realize the ANG has done a great job with all-rank clubs, but for some reason when the active duty tries it the results are fraternization cases for the jag and a lot of other trouble. (cease side rant)

 

[pkober]

That's because in the Guard most people were enlisted before they were officers and have been in that unit there entire career. Plus rank is only there due to a requirement to be in that rank for that job. It's all about getting the job done. Not rank and shined shoes. If a hard roller rank happy guy gets in to our unit it only takes one, maybe two, trips with our E's for him to be broken of that gay habit. They usually don't get hired to begin with.

 

[Fox-Tree]

That's because in the Guard most people were enlisted before they were officers and have been in that unit there entire career.......

???WTF???

:laugh: Not the pilots. Where's your info coming from. All prior enlisted? I don't think so. A much higher percentage of pilots (at least fighter pilots) per unit started out active duty (and definitely not prior enlisted).

 

[JungleJett]

???WTF???

:laugh: Not the pilots. Where's your info coming from. All prior enlisted? I don't think so. A much higher percentage of pilots (at least fighter pilots) per unit started out active duty (and definitely not prior enlisted).

Uhh....hmmm.....he never said "ALL".

A good fighter unit will look within when hiring those that have busted thier ass in hopes of a UPT slot. I know more than a few fighter pilots.

We have a ton of former enlisted folks in our rated officer ranks. In fact our unit prefers to hire from within. I would not say a majority is from the enlisted ranks but a pretty sizable portion. Honestly, I have found those that have come from the enlisted ranks make better officers...but that is just my opinion. By the way, our Wing Commander is former enlisted as was our last AG for Air.

As for the clubs being segregated, yeah........in the fighter community maybe. In the airlift community, since we work together and we usually play together and usually play nice. Some of my closest friends are officers. I understand and appreciate the importance of rank in a military organization but have also seen its dark side. (Former Army) Guys that walk around looking at their shoulders all the time are pretty much singled out as being tools and spend a lot of time on thier own...O' or E' Club.

It comes down to respect I guess. Thank God I was never AD.

 

[JungleJett]

Since I cannot edit my post, please remove the respect comment at the end. Poor wording on my part and it was not meant to imply that any officer or enlisted person does not respect the other.

I think in the fighter community, there is a lack of shared interest/experience that may widen the gap. You guys go fly your single seat airplane and debrief when you get back. The enlisted guy is out there putting the jet to bed. In the airlift community, we fly together, we debrief together, and then hit the club together.

That enlisted kid working the flight line may want to be a pilot, yet does not understand the world in which you guys live. Maybe sharing a beer at the bar is not such a bad thing as it may give the opportunity to share some knowledge or pass along some advice in a more "comfortable" forum.

 

[pkober]

???WTF???

:laugh: Not the pilots. Where's your info coming from. All prior enlisted? I don't think so. A much higher percentage of pilots (at least fighter pilots) per unit started out active duty (and definitely not prior enlisted).

My info. I don't know. Maybe being a Guard Baby all my military career. Maybe that's not enough. Having sat on UPT boards, maybe not enough.

90% of our UPT selectees are prior enlisted. Mostly from the back of the airplane. I know plenty of units, fighter also, that hire mostly from within their own enlisted ranks. They have a proven record going into the interview and that helps. That's why at most UPT class graduations the Guard guys have more than just the CNN and basic training ribbon.

Alot of units would rather hire new guys and send them thru UPT and have them be Guard guys from day one. It's easier than having to break some ones active dutyisms. There's always going to be guys from active duty in Guard units, since you seem to think I said ALL guard pilots are prior enlisted.

Hopefully this won't turn into Guard vs. AD.

 

[AlbieF15]

The issue with O's and E's rarely is with the flyers--on either side.

The non-aviator officers are usually the guys spoiling to make point, especially with someone in a flightsuit. Ditto the enlisted hazing of an officer with (gasp) an unauthorized morale patch or set of sunglasses on his head. Many times to agitator is a retired guy hanging out trying to make himself feel important since he doesn't really have the same clout in his new environment.

I've boozed hard and often with our E force at countless hooches in Alaska, Guam, Turkey, and on TDYs whenever we hit the road. Our crew chiefs and maintainers are all world class. My best friend at FDX was a 141 driver, and he had some great buddies that were engineers or loadmasters.

Again--my issue is with "that guy"...the one who showed up just hoping to start a ruccus with an (officer/pilot/Guard guy/fill in the blank) to make himself feel better about himself. When that guy was an officer--I had no problem telling him to "(fill in the blank) himself". When a Retired enlisted MSgt or Chief did the same thing--its a lose/lose issue if you fight back. I've found it easier over the years to just keep away from the Barney Fife's of both the O and E ranks. The O's I could recognize coming--the E's I could not--so I just tried to keep some distance from the ones I didn't work with day to day.

Absolutely no offense intended to the outstanding Enlisted guys and gals out there... Nobody moves a wheel without everyone on the team...

 

[Russ]

As a former enlisted guy, I completely agree with you. Sometimes you want to be able to talk (or vent) without always having to look over your shoulder.
If I knew the guy who writes my fitness report is a few tables away, I might as well be back at the shop.

 

[JimGlasair3]

I interviewed at Continental a few months ago. My application showed a significant military background, so they naturally asked quite a few questions about it. Not a big deal there, but then one interviewer, who had a Marine Aviator background, started asking a number of questions about my submarine service and my activities in Afghanistan. I answered what I could, but he did ask some pointed questions that I wasn't at liberty to answer. He then asked if I was still active in the reserves. I was. The remainder of the questions had a slightly confrontational tone. I was not offerred the position.

Also interviewed at SWA, they asked the normal questions, as well as if I was still active in the Reserves. I thought that interview went well. Did not get the job (nor did anyone else that interviewed that day).

I really don't think either CAL or SWA was specifically "discriminating" against reservists, but at least in CAL's case, I feel it did lead to a slightly more confrontational line of questioning, possibly looking for a classic "type A" personality? Didn't think that was my case.

While it may be troubling that reserve participation is a part of the interview process, as many have pointed it out, there are quite a few pilots that abuse MIL leave. Both need to stop.

At least there is still a happy ending, I'm now flying 737's, and domiciled where I've been living anyway. For me, it doesn't get any better than that! They ALSO asked about my reserve participation, which apparently didn't bother them at all. This company (AirTran) appears to have a more supportive culture! That or I simply got better at the interview process after all the practice!

 

[pkober]

Congrats on the job.

 

[dtfl]

At least there is still a happy ending, I'm now flying 737's, and domiciled where I've been living anyway. For me, it doesn't get any better than that! They ALSO asked about my reserve participation, which apparently didn't bother them at all. This company (AirTran) appears to have a more supportive culture! That or I simply got better at the interview process after all the practice!

When I interviewed at AT last week they made a POINT to stress that they support guard and reserve participation and our country's military.
How senior were you, agewise, to get the 73 vs 717?

 

[JimGlasair3]

When I interviewed at AT last week they made a POINT to stress that they support guard and reserve participation and our country's military.
How senior were you, agewise, to get the 73 vs 717?

I was number six, at the age of 41, in my class of 24. There were nine vacancies for the 737. It went right down the line, the nine oldest decided on the 737. I think the youngest to get the 737 was about 37.

The following classes had more of a 50/50 ratio, might have gone younger.

It won't matter in two years, when the equipment lock is up anyway.

Both are great airplanes, and it really wouldn't have mattered to me which one I wound up on. I'm just glad to be here!

Good luck!

 

[Hagar17]

One of the best posts I've ever read on this forum.

Hag

Contact USERRA.

By the way...define "mil leave abuse". Who decides what is or is not important enough work to justify being on orders? If a reservist activates for 30 days over the holiday so the overworked active duty guys get a break, is that somehow wrong? Why should the airline employees be more protected from working a holiday than an active duty service person?

Employers have the right to call military units requesting relief from taskings. They usually don't--because they know they'll come off as unpatriotic or not supportive. Instead--they individually pressure employees who are on leave. What does the reservist/guardsman say who is asked to pony up and work over the holidays so some over-worked active duty guys can have time off? "Sorry--bad time...they'll need to suck it up. But ask me again in January and perhaps they can go take some leave then?"

Employers need to quit badgering the guy or gal caught in the no-win middle of these fights and contact their USERRA omsbudsman and/or the employees military supervisors.

Every unit is different. Every story is different. Nailing someone because they had to perform duty when it was "inconvenient" for the airline without getting the full story is wrong. The guy who dropped a month may have done so to go to Red Flag or another similar training event that are hard to get every 2-3 years... That week that conflicted with a "bad trip" may have been so he could get his night squares done for the year--sometimes tough for part-timers when the unit only has 7-8 periods a year on a night schedule. For Viper guys---masters of many trades--the chance to do SEAD, CAS, or Maverick rides may be limited due to range availablity. These guys will go when they can get the training.

Turn on CNN. Count the stories about all the guys who hate us and want to kill us. Then rethink why we have the reserve forces. There are some good deals to being part of the team, but there is also a heck of a lot of work and responsiblity. I've said this before, but for most guys doing both jobs you soon find out you really just can't make everyone happy, and sometimes you just have to suck it up and get it done.

 

[Scrapdog]

Has anyone heard a rumor that Continental isn't hiring Guard or Reserve guys now because of the threat of military leave?

Just got the good words I'll be flying for CAL - starting class in December! My background is strictly military - F-15's on AD, and now F-16's in the ANG. So it looks like CAL is still hiring Mil folks. The interview was actually really enjoyable - they want to see you answer their questions thoroughly, but BE yourself. I think overall they want to see a well rounded type individual, and a guy that really wants to be at CAL. My mil commitment came up during my panel interview, however I gave the guys a straight forward, honest answer and they seemed pleased. They also told me they are very pro military and want me to serve my commitment with the ANG while still flying for CAL, and it seemed that was the heartfelt truth when they said it.

For the prep - I did it with Albie at Emerald Coast and it was awesome! I highly recommend it. It definetly gave me a good deal of confidence before I walked in the panel. For the sim, make sure you prep as well - especially if you're a fighter guy. I prepped with Alteon at DFW at it was right on the money. If you've never flown a heavy type jet, I highly recommend doing some kind of prep before you go do the sim ride for the interview. You won't be pristine at flying the thing, but you'll have a very good idea on the flows and profile you'll be doing. And while they don't expect you to fly the thing like a seasoned captain, they do want to see you always cross checking making corrections when you're off altitude/airspeed.

Any questions PM me - best of luck to all.

 

[embdrvr]

Another form of mil leave abuse is waiting for your schedule to be posted and then calling the unit to arrange drill so you can avoid the commute. Seen that happen before. The guy would brag about how many times he didn't have to commute to the airline job thanks to his reserve unit.

 

[Scrapdog]

Another form of mil leave abuse is waiting for your schedule to be posted and then calling the unit to arrange drill so you can avoid the commute. Seen that happen before. The guy would brag about how many times he didn't have to commute to the airline job thanks to his reserve unit.

Tell us how you really feel. Maybe I sense a slight bit of animosity. You don't "arrange drill," you utilize either drill periods or Flying Training Periods when you need to fly and the scheduler can put you in the schedule. Drill periods are there to use at any time, however mainly most guardsmen use them on their particular drill weekends. Guys have to stay current so they're combat ready - it takes a lot more than just deciding on a Wednesday to show up at your unit and slide into the schedule. PM me and I'll fill you in on exactly how the process works, if you're so inclined.

 

[Mooseflyer]

Another form of mil leave abuse is waiting for your schedule to be posted and then calling the unit to arrange drill so you can avoid the commute. Seen that happen before. The guy would brag about how many times he didn't have to commute to the airline job thanks to his reserve unit.

And who defines mil leave "abuse" this way? You? Often times, the mil schedule is unavailable before the airline schedule is posted. Or, a training event was not accomplished as scheduled and needs to be made up for any number of reasons - tanker cancelled, jet broke, wx, real world missions took the training jets away, classes full, etc. Here's some news for you - aircrew can't get by with "one weekend a month and two weeks a year" that you hear about on the radio/TV, and there is certainly no way a schedule can be predicted a year in advance. Military aircrew currency requirements are quite absurd, and I personally don't see how folks who commute to the reserve job do it. If you think the majority of Reservists are just using mil leave to game the system, you're mistaken. In fact, if you want to "game the system" you have sick time. Here's a difference - you get PAID while on sick time, a reservist who goes to drill doesn't get pay from most airlines. So before you spout off about the "many forms" of mil leave "abuse", do some research so you won't come off as an a$$.

 

[Cobra]

Any US Air carrier that discriminated against a future prior service member's application for employment regardless of whether they are a pilot, flight attendant, ramper, etc., would be completely and utterly shameful to the n-th degree. Especially in light that so many of these carrier's have reaped huge monetary gain from flying these folks to their respective combat zone or to and from a R&R via a CRAF flight.

It should be a perogative for any employer to take a great degree of pride, mutual respect, patriotism, and personal positive reflection to go out of the way to welcome and hire a combat veteran to their workforce.

 

[AlbieF15]

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/LucasStL/1180/
I have seen bits and pieces of this before--used part of it to teach human factors as a CRM instructor.

This is OLD footage--daylight raid over Bagdad in 91. However--the Wing and package had a bunch of ANG guys mixed in if I recall correctly. If they weren't in THIS package, I know for a fact some Syracuse guys were in another similar one.

Point I'm making is guys in ANG have to be ready all the time for this--we don't get much "spin up" if shooting starts. The skills it takes to stay involved and proficient have to be practiced. Sometimes--as I alluded to earlier--the best time/place to hone those skills can be inconvenient to an airline.

Not trying to start a battle with anyone--we should all strive to do BOTH our jobs with honor and professionalism. Just pointing out the job can be pretty tough at times, and the stakes (even in training) are life and death.

Rock on...

 

[Cobra]

Another form of mil leave abuse is waiting for your schedule to be posted and then calling the unit to arrange drill so you can avoid the commute. Seen that happen before. The guy would brag about how many times he didn't have to commute to the airline job thanks to his reserve unit.

That's abit of a stretch don't you think considering units know their fiscal training calendar at least 6 months out in advance FOR NORMAL TRAINING EVENTS. Oh but wait, things are abit different. Unless you or others don't get it, we are at WAR. Feel lucky that the draft has been suspended.

Sad, that we have to be having this conversation.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Just got the good words I'll be flying for CAL - starting class in December! My background is strictly military - F-15's on AD, and now F-16's in the ANG. So it looks like CAL is still hiring Mil folks. The interview was actually really enjoyable - they want to see you answer their questions thoroughly, but BE yourself. I think overall they want to see a well rounded type individual, and a guy that really wants to be at CAL. My mil commitment came up during my panel interview, however I gave the guys a straight forward, honest answer and they seemed pleased. They also told me they are very pro military and want me to serve my commitment with the ANG while still flying for CAL, and it seemed that was the heartfelt truth when they said it.

For the prep - I did it with Albie at Emerald Coast and it was awesome! I highly recommend it. It definetly gave me a good deal of confidence before I walked in the panel. For the sim, make sure you prep as well - especially if you're a fighter guy. I prepped with Alteon at DFW at it was right on the money. If you've never flown a heavy type jet, I highly recommend doing some kind of prep before you go do the sim ride for the interview. You won't be pristine at flying the thing, but you'll have a very good idea on the flows and profile you'll be doing. And while they don't expect you to fly the thing like a seasoned captain, they do want to see you always cross checking making corrections when you're off altitude/airspeed.

Any questions PM me - best of luck to all.

Ouch...no love.

Congratulations again though dude...and good advice above. Looking forward to taking that beer or 6 from you!

-Neal

 

[pkober]

Scrapdog,

Congrats and welcome.

 

[C5drvr]

After reading this post I checked The CALALPA website to see how many Mil new hires there have been since hiring picked up in Sep. Here's what I found:

I counted 7 military new hires since the begining of Sep and since 10/24 there has not been any. That includes the 10/24, 10/31 and 11/7 classes.
I'm not sure what percentage of applicants are military but it must be a small percentage of the total. Hopefully that is the reason there have been so few Mil new hires in the past few months. The email below was in response to this concern.

Blast mail sent 6/23/07
Pilot Hiring
I’ve received several messages lately stating in effect that the
company is discriminating against current and former military members with
regards to hiring. I’ve talked to the Manager of Pilot Recruiting about
this and he’s assured me that there’s no direction or pressure to avoid
hiring pilots with connections to the armed services. I told him that
I’m sure he’s correct but I count the number of military pilots in each
new class. Since we started hiring again, after the recall of our last
furloughee, about 15% of our new hires are former military. That
percentage varies from class to class but has remained fairly constant over
all.
The Manger of Pilot Recruiting did give me some insight into the pace
of hiring here at CAL. Up until April they were interviewing about 50
pilots to fill 2 classes of 16 pilots each month. Since April they’ve
been interviewing fewer than 10 pilots per month. The pace of
interviewing and classes will most likely remain very slow through the summer.
Right now they expect to ramp up the interviewing in September to start
classes training in October. When they do start interviewing again
they will be calling a lot of CALEX pilots for interviews because our
current contract guarantees the EXJET guys a preferential rate of
interviews and they’ve fallen behind the required rate in the first part of this
year.
The Manager of Pilot Recruiting told me that if you want to get your
buddy an interview you should talk to your Chief Pilot’s Office. The CPO
has the ability to move anyone to the top of the interview list. So
whether or not your friend gets an interview will depend entirely upon
how good your written recommendation is, YOUR reputation with the CPO and
how aggressively (and politely) you follow up with the CPO to check on
the status of your buddy’s application. He also told me that no one
will get an interview here at CAL without a recommendation from a current
CAL pilot.
Right now everyone involved with the hiring process professes how much
they love hiring pilots who are former military members. And I think
as long as all of us associated with the military already here remain
the best and most professional pilots at CAL we can continue to get our
former squadron mates interviews ahead of most other off the street
pilots.

Duke Forbes
CALALPA Military Liaison
CDR USN​

nths.

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrapdog,

Congrats and welcome.

Thanks brother! I'm excited to be part of the team!

 

[stonewall]

Thanks brother! I'm excited to be part of the team!

Way to be part of the team at happy hour. Get lost on the way?

 

[JungleJetCA]

After reading this post I checked The CALALPA website to see how many Mil new hires there have been since hiring picked up in Sep. Here's what I found:

I counted 7 military new hires since the begining of Sep and since 10/24 there has not been any. That includes the 10/24, 10/31 and 11/7 classes.
I'm not sure what percentage of applicants are military but it must be a small percentage of the total. Hopefully that is the reason there have been so few Mil new hires in the past few months.

One thing that can kind of skew the numbers is counting retired military as far as analyzing whether CAL has a problem with reservists. Since military retirees are not going to take military leave they shouldn't be counted as being reservists. So of those 7 since September, can you tell how many were active Selres?