NO JS to anti-ALPA types

[PCL_128]

How I feel about it is beside the point. When you haze people about their union affiliation to qualify for "your" jumpseat, that's contrary to the spirit and letter of ALPA policy.

An ALPA wonk trying to make this a personal thing with me is subterfuge.

Where do you get this idea that ALPA jumpseat policy is binding on the members? The jumpseat belongs to the Captain, and he can do whatever he choose to do with it, within the confines of his FOM and the FARs. Pretty simple.

 

[N2264J]

Where do you get this idea that ALPA jumpseat policy is binding on the members?

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why ALPA is doomed to be an ineffectual, backwater organization: the selective, cavalier and inconsistent application of policy.

 

[norskman2]

Can a captain deny a jumpseat because he or she doesn't like your attitude towards ALPA/hairstyle/religion/political views/taste in music/mood that day/any reason whatsoever?

Absolutely! It's their jumpseat.

Does that mean it's a classy thing to do, or one that helps the profession? H*** no.

 

[Occam's Razor]

When you haze people about their union affiliation to qualify for "your" jumpseat, that's contrary to the spirit and letter of ALPA policy.

Nobody gets "hazed". What they get is a couple of questions. If their answers come with the smell of alcohol...they don't go. If their answers come back with a hostile attitude...they don't go. If answers don't come back...they don't go.

THAT is consistent with ALPA policy, and even better, puts me in compliance with FAR's.

I give the jumpseat to dozens of non-ALPA pilots every month. Their affiliation is not the point of the questions.

An ALPA wonk trying to make this a personal thing with me is subterfuge.

This from someone who has sued ALPA for personal gain.

Classic!

 

[Goose Egg]

His response was that unions are basically useless and that SkyWest was doing better than most regionals without unions.

All opinions aside, is that untrue? I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say that unions were "useless," (especially in a union pilot's airplane), but you have to admit that SkyWest has done well without a union. OO has never furloughed. What union airline can say that?

After speaking to him for 15 minutes...

Ahh, a captain's life, where you actually have 15 minutes to get into a discussion like this.

-Goose

 

[JPAustin]

Can a captain deny a jumpseat because he or she doesn't like your attitude towards ALPA/hairstyle/religion/political views/taste in music/mood that day/any reason whatsoever?

Absolutely! It's their jumpseat.

Does that mean it's a classy thing to do, or one that helps the profession? H*** no.

Heh heh. Good point. The captain can easily find an "acceptable" reason to deny the JS if the question ever comes up. But, as you so eloquently stated, "is it a classy thing to do?... H*** no."

 

[strega7]

I'd love to see somebody actually try this. Jumpseating wouldn't cease to exist, but said jumpseater's career would.

Actually the best way to "get even" is to wait and then strike when the guy least expects it. Crewmember names and who they work for is easy information to get. That information, the internet, and a "grumpy" bored pilot could create a living nightmare for that captain. Just Google "getting even" and look at the ways you can hurt or get hurt. The best part is that captain wouldn't have the slightest clue why his life is turning to junk and would never be able to trace it back to that denied jumpseater.

Why would you risk becoming a target?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OO has never furloughed. What union airline can say that?

Southwest....


If there were many airlines like OO, then you might have a point... but OO is a carve out.... an exception to the rule....

 

[PCL_128]

Southwest....

UPS also, as well as quite a few regional carriers.

 

[JoeMerchant]

UPS also, as well as quite a few regional carriers.

Of course neither SWA, nor UPS are ALPA..... Both enjoy industry leading pay and workrules and neither has ever furloughed......

 

[Occam's Razor]

Of course neither SWA, nor UPS are ALPA..... Both enjoy industry leading pay and workrules and neither has ever furloughed......

Cool!

More pilot unions for you and your buddies to sue.

FedEx, Einstein.

Oops! Doesn't fit the model. Please ignore...

Gotta love their Scope though, huh?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Cool!

More pilot unions for you and your buddies to sue.

Faulty logic Occam..... No reason to sue SWAPA or UPS's union.... they don't pretend to represent anyone other than their own pilots..... No conflict of interest there....It is ALPA that has a conflict of interest...... The APA realized this and didn't want to represent Eagle.....

FedEx, Einstein.

Oops! Doesn't fit the model. Please ignore...

Gotta love their Scope though, huh?

Not really.... they outsourced their turbo-prop flying....otherwise known as the camel's nose.... sound familiar......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Faulty logic Occam..... No reason to sue SWAPA or UPS's union.... they don't pretend to represent anyone other than their own pilots..... No conflict of interest there....It is ALPA that has a conflict of interest...... The APA realized this and didn't want to represent Eagle.....

Yeah, Joe.... more mind blowing analysis for the Lawsuit Klub.....

How effective are SWAPA, APA and IPA on national and international issues? In fact these pilot groups along with the NPA realized that and formed CAPA.

Mixed messages with the industry players is fodder. If you want to address the issues of Air Line Pilots you have to deal with Congress and ICAO. These pilot groups can try and control thier world...island style, but sooner or later globalization will impact EVERY pilot out there... as it already has... NOTE the Air France and DAL ALPA pilot agreement...

Also, the comparing the recent UPS and FedEx contract... it was clear that the UPS CBA is a management agreement...and the FX CBA is pilot agreement...


Joe...time to quit thinking like a skilled laborer rather a professional....

 

[Soverytired]

Y
Joe...time to quit thinking like a skilled laborer rather a professional....

Actually, I think ALPA and airline unions in general would do much better if they would stop pushing "professional" and start calling the job what it is . . . blue collar work where unions have traditionally held strong sway.

I don't think "professional" is supposed to mean a nice uniform with shiny shoes and an ability to follow exacting directions and rules. One key asset of "professional" is having such a unique skillset that said professional is able to market one's talents out to the highest bidder (aka laywer, doctor, specialized sciences, etc.)

A pilot's skills are highly specialized, but not at all portable when flying in the US. The most grizzled 20,000+ hour veteran must always start at the bottom when switching between airlines in the US, for example. Not so when flying contract ex-pat work . . . something more and more US pilots are discovering, taking advantage of, and making the leap to true "professional" status.

There's no shame in blue collar work, nor does it necessarily mean low pay . . . quite the opposite in many union dominated shops for much of the mid to late 1900's.

Quibbling over semantics, perhaps. I've just always thought that US pilots would be better served to think of themselves as closed-shop, hard core blue-collar union card carrying workers and fight for their contracts from that vantage point.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Actually, I think ALPA and airline unions in general would do much better if they would stop pushing "professional" and start calling the job what it is . . . blue collar work where unions have traditionally held strong sway.

Eroding PIC authority, I see....

I don't think "professional" is supposed to mean a nice uniform with shiny shoes and an ability to follow exacting directions and rules.

No..that is the given part. It is already assumed...but then again walk the terminal and check out LL Beans Polar Tec fleece collection!

One key asset of "professional" is having such a unique skillset that said professional is able to market one's talents out to the highest bidder (aka laywer, doctor, specialized sciences, etc.)

Wrong again... a professional is one that provides a unique service and one who serves the general public in the intrest of the public... like a doctor.

A pilot's skills are highly specialized, but not at all portable when flying in the US. The most grizzled 20,000+ hour veteran must always start at the bottom when switching between airlines in the US, for example. Not so when flying contract ex-pat work . . . something more and more US pilots are discovering, taking advantage of, and making the leap to true "professional" status.

You still don't get it...will you ever?

There's no shame in blue collar work, nor does it necessarily mean low pay . . . quite the opposite in many union dominated shops for much of the mid to late 1900's.

Of course not... but if we defeined ourselves and behaved like tradition blue collar workers we will dilute our status as professionals...and our value!

An OB-GYN stated that her job is done by mid-wives in other parts of the world. Do you think she wants to make doctor pay or mid wife pay?

Quibbling over semantics, perhaps. I've just always thought that US pilots would be better served to think of themselves as closed-shop, hard core blue-collar union card carrying workers and fight for their contracts from that vantage point.

Safety is not for sale.

I liken you to showing up to play a football game. As play begins you don't understand the rules or you think the rules should be different. In short time.. everyone gets annoyed because you keep questioning....it seems...everything... your team can't move the ball forward because everyone is trying to get you to understand....

 

[JoeMerchant]

How effective are SWAPA, APA and IPA on national and international issues? In fact these pilot groups along with the NPA realized that and formed CAPA.

Mixed messages with the industry players is fodder. If you want to address the issues of Air Line Pilots you have to deal with Congress and ICAO. These pilot groups can try and control thier world...island style, but sooner or later globalization will impact EVERY pilot out there... as it already has... NOTE the Air France and DAL ALPA pilot agreement...

Sorry Rez, but there are more pressing issues...... The threat to my job comes from fellow union "brothers" at carriers such as Mesa, PCL, and even mainline pilots who are willing to underbid the current ASA and CMR 700 rates.... Lets deal with the immediate threat of ALPA carriers competing for flying within a brand....

If my job goes to another ALPA carrier or other competitor, then I really don't give a d@mn about the other issues.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Eroding PIC authority, I see....



No..that is the given part. It is already assumed...but then again walk the terminal and check out LL Beans Polar Tec fleece collection!




Wrong again... a professional is one that provides a unique service and one who serves the general public in the intrest of the public... like a doctor.



You still don't get it...will you ever?



Of course not... but if we defeined ourselves and behaved like tradition blue collar workers we will dilute our status as professionals...and our value!

An OB-GYN stated that her job is done by mid-wives in other parts of the world. Do you think she wants to make doctor pay or mid wife pay?



Safety is not for sale.

It appears it is when it comes to experience levels of 121 pilots..... You ALPA cheerleaders have thrown in the towel on trying to raise pilot standards rather than lower them.... I don't see the other "professions" doing that.....

Other professions set higher standards and can transport their experience across company lines.... When we start doing that, then and only then, can we compare our situation to that of lawyers and doctors....

 

[Occam's Razor]

It appears it is when it comes to experience levels of 121 pilots..... You ALPA cheerleaders have thrown in the towel on trying to raise pilot standards rather than lower them.... I don't see the other "professions" doing that.....

Other professions don't have tools like you falling over themselves to do my job for less.

Railing against Scope provisions that restrict the size of aircraft at your airline makes sense if you're willing and able to negotiate a mainline-equivilent pay rate for the larger aircraft. If not...YOU are the one lowering the standard.

Other professions set higher standards and can transport their experience across company lines.... When we start doing that, then and only then, can we compare our situation to that of lawyers and doctors....

How 'bout we compare ourselves to plumbers? Does a journeyman plumber in Indiana make as much as a journeyman in NYC?

Same union...same job...same level of experience...different pay rates.

Screen Actors Guild?

Why the heck didn't the producers pay Amy Adams the same $$ they paid Julia Roberts? They both starred in a major production. Oh, wait! Amy Adams is just starting-out in the business, and doesn't have that Oscar. Same union...same job...different pay rate.

Is Amy Adams lowering the standard by starring in a movie for less than Julia Roberts as she builds her experience in the industry?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Other professions don't have tools like you falling over themselves to do my job for less.

You fly the ATR.... cool...... I am going to make more flying the ATR this year than your fellow Compass/NWA pilots on the E175....

Railing against Scope provisions that restrict the size of aircraft at your airline makes sense if you're willing and able to negotiate a mainline-equivilent pay rate for the larger aircraft. If not...YOU are the one lowering the standard.

Our 700 captain rates are higher than Delta's, NWA's, and USAirways E175 rates...... You were saying? Why did the mainline lower the standard for the 70-90 seat market?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Our 700 captain rates are higher than Delta's, NWA's, and USAirways E175 rates...... You were saying? Why did the mainline lower the standard for the 70-90 seat market?

The answer to that question is in a book. You'll find it right after Chapter 10.

Looks like the issue is settled, and I won't see your butt applying at any of the Legacy airlines. Who needs Brand Scope when you're kicking tail right where you are?

Win-Win!