No comment

[SWA Bubba]

I don't think they do unions better in Europe. The main difference is that Europe's population is thankfully still very pro union which makes it politically dangerous to be seen as too aggressively anti union, therefore most companies have stopped their eternal war with them. Instead in many countries they integrate Union reps right into the management structure up to and including their Board of Directors. It leads to greater understanding of each others problems which makes for more honest compromises that benefit both sides. The end result is that both sides naturally must learn to coexist rather than continually attempt to wipe each other off the face of the earth.

By contrast, the US population has allowed itself to be swindled into believing that Unions are bad for the economy, etc resulting in a very hostile anti Union environment. This in turn allows most management to take incredibly aggressive anti worker positions without paying any political price. Add it all up and you have a recipe for very confrontational Labor relations.

Put another way, why should a worker feel loyalty or go above and beyond when he/she is constantly given the message that they don't matter and are totally replaceable whenever management feels like it? Blaming Unions for this state of affairs is like blaming the deer when some drunk hunter falls out of his blind and breaks his neck.

Sorry, but I disagree.

European companies "tolerate" unions better that in the US, not because they're more enlightened, but because they have to. Their further left-of-center laws require it. As a matter of law, they have no other choice, so unions have much more power in Europe than they do here.

And this is the fallacy in the argument you presented above: you assume that management's motives are always bad, and that unions' motives are always good. Therefore your conclusion: "the unions have the power, so the result MUST be the fair one." Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "fair."

In actuality, there needs to be a balance. Neither side can have too much power. We're still fighting that battle over here, but in my opinion, the Europeans have already lost. Their unions have way too much power, as a result of their societies' socialist leanings. The unions have extracted so many benefits and entitlements out of the government (ie taxpayer), that the countries are imploding under the weight of financial obligations they'll never be able to meet, under any circumstances.

Ever.

That's your idea of "fair"?

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

European companies "tolerate" unions better that in the US, not because they're more enlightened, but because they have to. Their further left-of-center laws require it. As a matter of law, they have no other choice, so unions have much more power in Europe than they do here.

Those laws are what is more enlightened about Europe. Most people recognize that Unions are an important part of their social fabric over there and they support that, not just tolerate it.

After the tragedy of WWII, they recognized that extremism of any kind is not good for the public good. They therefore embarked on a strategy of making sure that most things remain calm and steady, middle of the road. Socialism is not considered a bad thing over there, nor is the term purposely misused to scare people like it's being done here in the US.

And this is the fallacy in the argument you presented above: you assume that management's motives are always bad, and that unions' motives are always good. Therefore your conclusion: "the unions have the power, so the result MUST be the fair one." Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "fair."

In actuality, there needs to be a balance. Neither side can have too much power. We're still fighting that battle over here, but in my opinion, the Europeans have already lost. Their unions have way too much power, as a result of their societies' socialist leanings. The unions have extracted so many benefits and entitlements out of the government (ie taxpayer), that the countries are imploding under the weight of financial obligations they'll never be able to meet, under any circumstances.

Ever.

That's your idea of "fair"?

Bubba

Well, Bubba if you put it like they do on Hannitty's show or Fat Bastard Radio Hour then of course that doesn't look fair. The hidden blessing is that their version of what they want to tell us about Europe is a gross exaggeration. Europe did not loose its battle about Unionization, they won it and put it to bed! Europe is also not collapsing under its own weight of financial obligations. Instead, they are suffering from an identity crisis which has led them to not finishing the conversion to the Euro completely. In other words they share a currency while still allowing separate monetary policies. This has predictably devolved into the current fiscal mess. They could fix it quite easily though by just issuing a European Bond and the whole thing goes away. (Kind of like the US Bond compensating for the fact that Mississippi is a total financial basket case.) The problem is that many people in Europe, just like here in the US, are nostalgic for the past and don't realize that this irrational, emotional baggage is keeping them from a more prosperous and stable future. The obvious and sane economic solution is being held up by tribal political concerns that are difficult to manage by politicians who may still feel the need to stay in office.

Why is it that Americans like you, are always so convinced that life in Europe is so bad, when in actuality Europe exceeds the US in quality of life scores by almost any measure you care to look at? Do you have personal experience of having lived there?

BTW: Are you also against SWAPA making it more difficult for LUV"s management to pull off the merger between you and the AT crews, or are you in this case fully on the "socialistic" side in order to protect what you feel is rightfully yours? I guess it really is just a matter of perspective.

 

[HA25]

Sorry, but I disagree.

European companies "tolerate" unions better that in the US, not because they're more enlightened, but because they have to. Their further left-of-center laws require it. As a matter of law, they have no other choice, so unions have much more power in Europe than they do here.

And this is the fallacy in the argument you presented above: you assume that management's motives are always bad, and that unions' motives are always good. Therefore your conclusion: "the unions have the power, so the result MUST be the fair one." Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "fair."

In actuality, there needs to be a balance. Neither side can have too much power. We're still fighting that battle over here, but in my opinion, the Europeans have already lost. Their unions have way too much power, as a result of their societies' socialist leanings. The unions have extracted so many benefits and entitlements out of the government (ie taxpayer), that the countries are imploding under the weight of financial obligations they'll never be able to meet, under any circumstances.

Ever.

That's your idea of "fair"?

Bubba

last time I checked, Dimler, BMW, and VW/Audi group were extremely profitable, making top quality cars and doing so with strong unions. Same applies to Airbus, Siemens, and dozens of German companies that both understand the importance of unions and respect them...

Ever wonder why we're so dysfunctional and they're not?

There is something rotten in how American business is muscled around by Wall St.. that's the rotten problem. Frankfurt doesn't dictate what German business does like Wall St does here.

 

[OHGOON]

last time I checked, Dimler, BMW, and VW/Audi group were extremely profitable, making top quality cars and doing so with strong unions. Same applies to Airbus, Siemens, and dozens of German companies that both understand the importance of unions and respect them...

Ever wonder why we're so dysfunctional and they're not?

There is something rotten in how American business is muscled around by Wall St.. that's the rotten problem. Frankfurt doesn't dictate what German business does like Wall St does here.

Couldn't agree with this more, especially about what a strangle hold Wall St. has on American business. They enforce quarterly profit considerations over long term financial planing every time and then we wonder why our industries are not as competitive as they should be. It's the equivalent of the mob protection racket on a grander scale.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Those laws are what is more enlightened about Europe. Most people recognize that Unions are an important part of their social fabric over there and they support that, not just tolerate it.

Saying something--anything--"shows enlightenment" is nothing more than the speaker's opinion. If what you like is acted on, then of course, they're "enlightened." If they do what you don't like, then they just obviously don't know any better. Statistically speaking, with this country's continually declining union membership numbers, would you say that the US is becoming "less and less enlightened"?

After the tragedy of WWII, they recognized that extremism of any kind is not good for the public good. They therefore embarked on a strategy of making sure that most things remain calm and steady, middle of the road. Socialism is not considered a bad thing over there, nor is the term purposely misused to scare people like it's being done here in the US.

Again, it is opinion that making things "calm, steady and middle of the road" is the best thing for everyone. And I renew my opinion that the people of Europe are so used to being told what to do for centuries, that they go along with whatever they're told to do. That ovine behavior is not necessarily good.


Well, Bubba if you put it like they do on Hannitty's show or Fat Bastard Radio Hour then of course that doesn't look fair. The hidden blessing is that their version of what they want to tell us about Europe is a gross exaggeration.

I've heard of Hannitty, but not Fat Bastard Radio Hour, but my opinions are my own. I don't watch Fox news OR MSNBC. Do right wing people accentuate unions' missteps and problems? I'm sure they. But I'm just as sure that left wing people minimize and cover them up. That's called politics.


Europe did not loose its battle about Unionization, they won it and put it to bed!

This is of course purely opinion, held by left wing believers. Others think differently. Kinda' like the US thinking the Vietnam was was lost, while the Vietnamese communists think the war was won.


Europe is also not collapsing under its own weight of financial obligations. Instead, they are suffering from an identity crisis which has led them to not finishing the conversion to the Euro completely. In other words they share a currency while still allowing separate monetary policies. This has predictably devolved into the current fiscal mess. They could fix it quite easily though by just issuing a European Bond and the whole thing goes away.

This is what's called a rationalization. They most certainly are collapsing financially. It's pie in the sky to think that it's simple to fix, just by "issuing bonds" or finishing the Euro conversion. The countries in the biggest trouble are already using the Euro; there's only a few that don't these days. As a matter of fact, the UK (one of the few countries who don't, hasn't because they're afraid it will hurt them too much). And saying that issuing anything will solve the problem of absurdly excessive obligations tied to insufficient income is nothing more than denial bordering on lunacy.

(Kind of like the US Bond compensating for the fact that Mississippi is a total financial basket case.)

Ironic that you should use Mississippi as your US example. In 2010 (the year I saw data for), there were only three states that took in more federal dollars than they contributed in taxes. Do you get what that means? The federal government was helping support them with other states' money, i.e. they were a drain on the rest of us. Know what those states were? California, New York and Michigan. The first two, the most left-leaning, "trying to be Europe" states; while Michigan made the list probably due to the massive unemployment tied to problems with the auto industry.


The problem is that many people in Europe, just like here in the US, are nostalgic for the past and don't realize that this irrational, emotional baggage is keeping them from a more prosperous and stable future. The obvious and sane economic solution is being held up by tribal political concerns that are difficult to manage by politicians who may still feel the need to stay in office.

Got it--if they'd only let go, and let big brother take care of them, everything will be fine. The government will give you everything they tell you that you need.

Why is it that Americans like you, are always so convinced that life in Europe is so bad, when in actuality Europe exceeds the US in quality of life scores by almost any measure you care to look at? Do you have personal experience of having lived there?

Quality of life is the most subjective term of art in existence. Hell, just ask any Airtran pilot about that. I've spent a lot of time in Europe, and although I've lived in Asia, I haven't in Europe. However, I would never want to LIVE anywhere but the US. In my opinion, quality of life starts first and foremost at freedom. Part of that means the freedom to achieve whatever I can through MY work; and to not have my wealth "averaged" with everyone else, for the collective good.

If you think their system is so much better, why don't YOU live over there? That's not a gibe, it's a legitimate question. Speaking of immigration and emigration, and discounting Latin America, why do you think more Europeans immigrate here than Americans emigrate to Europe?

BTW: Are you also against SWAPA making it more difficult for LUV"s management to pull off the merger between you and the AT crews, or are you in this case fully on the "socialistic" side in order to protect what you feel is rightfully yours? I guess it really is just a matter of perspective.

I'm trying to figure what you mean here; you have too many negatives. To answer what I think you're asking, I'm for SWAPA and management working together to get this deal done as quickly and efficiently as possible for everyone's sake--employees', management's and shareholders' alike. I don't know if I answered what you asked or not.

Bubba

 

[HA25]

Bubba, thank your union for the wages you make at Southwest... I assure you were it not for them you'd be making a lot less.

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba,

really living up to your handle aren't we? You like colors, maybe I'll use blue. Kind of appropriate don't you think??

Listen, living in a military compound surrounded by other Americans is hardly living abroad. You have never lived in Europe by your own admission, well I have and I liked it there. The people for the most part are more open minded and certainly better educated. Who are you to ask me why I don't just live there? What pure arrogance of "Love it or leave it" is this?? While it's none of your business, I will say this. I would if I could with absolutely no regrets! I would blow this joint so fast you have no idea, there are however certain personal situations beyond my control that keep me stuck here for now. Some freedom huh?

Statistically speaking, with this country's continually declining union membership numbers, would you say that the US is becoming "less and less enlightened"?

You said it, I didn't, but you're onto something...

I renew my opinion that the people of Europe are so used to being told what to do for centuries, that they go along with whatever they're told to do. That ovine behavior is...

This claim is pure jingoistic ignorance There are stupid people everywhere exhibiting "ovine" behavior as illustrated by you here quite well.

Kinda' like the US thinking the Vietnam was was lost, while the Vietnamese communists think the war was won.

Isn't that what most people on this planet agreed on actually happened?


As far as Europe financially collapsing; they are no more collapsing as we are. They are in debt to China too but not nearly as much as the US is. Greece is not all of Europe and neither is Spain, Italy, Portugal or Ireland. Those tiny (economical impact speaking) is only a problem because most banks are over-invested in those local stocks. Nothing a bailout and some sound fiscal reform, ie Euro Bonds, can't fix.

Ironic that you should use Mississippi as your US example. In 2010 (the year I saw data for), there were only three states that took in more federal dollars than they contributed in taxes. Do you get what that means? The federal government was helping support them with other states' money, i.e. they were a drain on the rest of us. Know what those states were? California, New York and Michigan...

UHMM, You claimed you don't follow Fox Noise and "think for yourself"... Does that include making up facts too? Actually California comes in at #43 of all states when it comes to taking vs giving Federal Tax Dollars. That's for every $1 Cali sends to Uncle Sam, it gets back 78¢
Take a look for yourself.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/11/16/whos-subsidizing-whom-varneys-crusade-on-ca-rev/173392

The problem is that many people in Europe, just like here in the US, are nostalgic for the past and don't realize that this irrational, emotional baggage is keeping them from a more prosperous and stable future. The obvious and sane economic solution is being held up by tribal political concerns that are difficult to manage by politicians who may still feel the need to stay in office.

I was reffering to antiquated patriotic emotional baggage. Try to keep up, will you?

Got it--if they'd only let go, and let big brother take care of them, everything will be fine. The government will give you everything they tell you that you need.

Nice "Fat Bastard Radio" claim. How is this germane to what I was saying? Too much Oxycontin in your diet lately too. Must be affecting your reading comprehension and not just your hearing?

...quality of life starts first and foremost at freedom. Part of that means the freedom to achieve whatever I can through MY work; and to not have my wealth "averaged" with everyone else, for the collective good.

AH, and here we have the crux of your problem. You believe you can achieve all that by yourself in a vacuum. No one else required or desired.
Good luck maintaining that illusion over time...

BTW: Are you also against SWAPA making it more difficult for LUV"s management to pull off the merger between you and the AT crews, or are you in this case fully on the "socialistic" side in order to protect what you feel is rightfully yours? I guess it really is just a matter of perspective.

Nice try at avoiding what I'm asking you here. Too many negatives my a$$... You know exactly what I'm saying here, but allow me to sharpen this further. Are you a hypocrite? Do you support something for yourself that you would deny others for purely ideological reasons?

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

really living up to your handle aren't we? You like colors, maybe I'll use blue. Kind of appropriate don't you think??


.......




Nice try at avoiding what I'm asking you here. Too many negatives my a$$... You know exactly what I'm saying here, but allow me to sharpen this further. Are you a hypocrite? Do you support something for yourself that you would deny others for purely ideological reasons?

[Moved response to a private message/discussion with OHGOON. I'm sure the rest of you are sick of this...]

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, thank your union for the wages you make at Southwest... I assure you were it not for them you'd be making a lot less.

I never said othewise. I've never said that unions are evil and shouldn't exist. Never. I believe quite the opposite, in fact. However, I said that there needs to be a balance. Too much power on either the management side OR the union side is bad. Do you guys really not agree with that? Do you really think that given unlimited power, that unions will always do the "fair" or best thing? Anymore than management would?

Both you and OHGOON fell into the mindset that since I'm not as far left as you too, that I must be an extremist to the right. Don't pigeon-hole me. I'm saying too far left OR too far right is bad. I try to live near the center.

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Both you and OHGOON fell into the mindset that since I'm not as far left as you too, that I must be an extremist to the right. Don't pigeon-hole me. I'm saying too far left OR too far right is bad. I try to live near the center.

Bubba

This is what you believe great! What you said however is quite different. Hence my quarrel with what you posted. I responded to you in private as you wish but I would have preferred it to remain public. I am not embarrassed about my positions. What's so difficult about this anyway? Anyone who doesn't like it can click away at anytime.

BTW: If you don't want to be pigeon-holed then you should not start. There is nothing left wing about supporting Unions. (Most pilots are decidedly right wing but still support theirs) I never claimed that Unions should be all powerful, you purposely overstated and misinterpreted my position. So with all due respect, if you don't want blowback, don't breath so heavy in the first place!

 

[HA25]

I never said othewise. I've never said that unions are evil and shouldn't exist. Never. I believe quite the opposite, in fact. However, I said that there needs to be a balance. Too much power on either the management side OR the union side is bad. Do you guys really not agree with that? Do you really think that given unlimited power, that unions will always do the "fair" or best thing? Anymore than management would?

Both you and OHGOON fell into the mindset that since I'm not as far left as you too, that I must be an extremist to the right. Don't pigeon-hole me. I'm saying too far left OR too far right is bad. I try to live near the center.

Bubba

This is the height of irony... anyone who knows me on here from my Non-Aviation chat can tell you I'm neither left or right.. I'm Catholic. That actually has a lot of genuine lefties very hot at me.. I'm pro-life, pro-traditional family values, and very conservative on many things, as my Church is..
I also belong to the NRA own two rifles and a Sig 229 pistol..

But by the same token, like my Church, I'm very pro-union.. in general on the economic issues, I'm more left leaning, as my Church is.. I'm for universal healthcare, and safety nets for the poor.. As for unions and too much power.. there is no balance here in the US, not even close.. that balance exists in the EU. The only place I can think of that's worse that the US is China and the Middle East..

 

[dustrpilot]

Catholics are cool! I'm not catholic by the way, just sayin.

 

[HA25]

Catholics are cool! I'm not catholic by the way, just sayin.

thanks, 99% of the responses I'd get to my above post would be very different, I commend you on your outside the norm post.

 

[SWA Bubba]

This is what you believe great! What you said however is quite different. Hence my quarrel with what you posted. I responded to you in private as you wish but I would have preferred it to remain public. I am not embarrassed about my positions. What's so difficult about this anyway? Anyone who doesn't like it can click away at anytime.

BTW: If you don't want to be pigeon-holed then you should not start. There is nothing left wing about supporting Unions. (Most pilots are decidedly right wing but still support theirs) I never claimed that Unions should be all powerful, you purposely overstated and misinterpreted my position. So with all due respect, if you don't want blowback, don't breath so heavy in the first place!

You should probably reread what I've said. I've been consistent in my statements, and what I believe is what I said.

Blowback? You lob personal attacks at anyone who doesn't agree with your definition of enlightened. Let's see, so far you've called me ignorant, stupid, implied more by "living up to your name" comment, told me I "must be taking too many Oxycontins," etc. You're a peach to debate. Just because I don't believe the same as you.

Then the height of irony: you tell me I'm extremist right wing because I said I believe in balance between unions and management (by the way, the logical and practical definition of "balance" alludes to being in the center). Then you tell me that if I don't believe exactly as you do as far as unionism goes (that US unions should be like European ones and that US unions haven't enough power), then I'm obviously a union hater. "You're with us or against us" was your quote. And apparently in your mind, that makes you a centrist. Good God Ohgoon, do you even hear the stuff coming out of your mouth?

I DO support my union. So far, my union works pretty well with its counterpart. Working together instead of against each other is better for everyone. We work hard, but we get compensated very well. The company stays profitable, and we have job security. Why does that sound so evil to you?

I DON'T support the idea that unions can do anything that they want, and that the proper goal is for them to get the most amount of money from a company while delivering as little work as humanly possible. If that's your goal, then you're no different than a company trying to get the most amount of work for little or no money. As I have said, time and again, the "fair" thing is something in the middle.

And yes, I understand that in your eyes, that makes me an extremist.

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba,

I'm tired of debating you. You took your worst offline for whatever reason and despite answering you line by line you keep lobbing the same old horse-pucky everywhere. You know, endless repetition of nonsense will not make it any less nonsensical.

I initially took issue with your ridiculously prejudicial statements about Europe and its people being "ovine", remember? Then you tried to disparage its Union movement without having any factual knowledge other than what you heard somewhere.

Now when I effectively challenge you, you want to back pedal and make yourself out to be the victim that is being attacked unreasonably? Cry me a river why don't ya... Sorry bub, if you're gonna risk spouting ignorant generalities before thinking them through then you are going to have to take your just medicine.

I stand by what I posted. If you want my tone to change, try countering my arguments factually for a change. Good luck.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

I'm tired of debating you. You took your worst offline for whatever reason and despite answering you line by line you keep lobbing the same old horse-pucky everywhere. You know, endless repetition of nonsense will not make it any less nonsensical.

I initially took issue with your ridiculously prejudicial statements about Europe and its people being "ovine", remember? Then you tried to disparage its Union movement without having any factual knowledge other than what you heard somewhere.

Now when I effectively challenge you, you want to back pedal and make yourself out to be the victim that is being attacked unreasonably? Cry me a river why don't ya... Sorry bub, if you're gonna risk spouting ignorant generalities before thinking them through then you are going to have to take your just medicine.

I stand by what I posted. If you want my tone to change, try countering my arguments factually for a change. Good luck.

Pay attention, I've never backpedaled in debating you. Never. I've never changed a stated opinion, only sought to clarify them after your posts. I've never claimed victim status; I merely said that your characterization of me due to my beliefs is ironic, which it is. However, I will say that attacking someone personally in a debate because you don't agree with them, IS unreasonable, and of that you are guilty.

I stand by my assertion that unions are important (and I support mine), but should not have too much power (nor should any side in a check and balance situation), which I've said from the beginning. I stand by my assertion that European unions have too much power. You certainly must agree that they have more power than in this country, and I've stated that it is my opinoin that it is too much over there. I've always said unions' power and managements' power is a balancing act. For that you label me an "extremist." In your own words, since I don't agree with you on union matters--which for some strange reason, you think is the center--then I'm clearly against you and all unions. You certainly have, in my mind, a strange world view.

Tell you what... I'm getting tired for now, so how about tomorrow I'll look up a few examples of European union issues to which I refer as being excessive power. Would that be an honest debate, or will you call me more names?

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba,

So you never said that Europeans are ovine? Is that an example of your fair and balanced approach? Please don't assume that everyone's attention span and or memory is less than the average soundbite on TV just because yours seem to be. Nope, you said it, I called you on it, and now you desperately are trying to claw yourself back to "reasonable." Not really working...

As far as attacking you personally, get over yourself. If I had called you a poopy stink face you might have a point but all I actually did was poke fun at your shamelessly biased "assertions" that illustrate your penchant for confusing opinion with fact. That's hilarious, and it richly deserves ridicule but it's not a personal attack. Of course if you want to take it personally I can't really stop you can I? On the other hand, I did call you ignorant, that's true; but what would you call someone who makes uneducated and prejudicial claims about people and things they have no first hand knowledge of?

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

So you never said that Europeans are ovine? Is that an example of your fair and balanced approach? Please don't assume that everyone's attention span and or memory is less than the average soundbite on TV just because yours seem to be. Nope, you said it, I called you on it, and now you desperately are trying to claw yourself back to "reasonable." Not really working...

As far as attacking you personally, get over yourself. If I had called you a poopy stink face you might have a point but all I actually did was poke fun at your shamelessly biased "assertions" that illustrate your penchant for confusing opinion with fact. That's hilarious, and it richly deserves ridicule but it's not a personal attack. Of course if you want to take it personally I can't really stop you can I? On the other hand, I did call you ignorant, that's true; but what would you call someone who makes uneducated and prejudicial claims about people and things they have no first hand knowledge of?

Really, so THAT's what this is about? I didn't realize that I had to repeat every part of every post to avoid being accused of backpedaling. And here I thought that you were upset because of my views that things should be "fair" and "balanced" (and I don't mean Fox News version!) vs. one-sided was the reason for your vitriol. I guess I thought that, because that's actually what you said. But it turns out, that because I made the comment about Europe historically acting ovine, THAT's the reason I'm an extremist while you're a centrist. Got it.

Okay, I hereby reiterate that I stand by my comment that Europe has historically acted ovine. Happy now? I don't backpedal on that either. I suppose you're upset because I used the term "ovine" to describe their behavior vs your idea of "enlightened." Just because a term doesn't sound flattering to you doesn't make it not an arguably valid comment. Anymore than I could get upset if you described Americans as a whole as "arrogant."

Why did I say that? History: The Crusades. One corrupt empire after another. The Soviet Union (and all of the Eastern Bloc, for that matter). Hitler's Germany. Etc. The people, for the most part, just followed along with what they were told, even when it was obvious that it was wrong. Did all? Of course not. But the general population did. That's compared to this country, which was actually founded because we didn't like getting pushed around unfairly by the government. That's why we have checks and balances. Opposition. That's why we yell at each other all the time. To ensure that everyone gets heard, and one point of view doesn't always dominate.

Which brings me to Europe's turn to the left since the 1960s and 70s. Increasing reliance on the government, more collectivization, surrendering autonomy to the central government (in the case of the EU, to being told what to do by somebody above your country's government). Once again,... European people being led. Surrendering individuality to the collective is the very definition of "ovine," Ohgoon. Having the government making more and more decisions for you, because they "know better" than you is not, in a sense, the American way. At least we're not going without kicking and screaming. That's why, in this country, you see cycles of power going left and then right. Union power grows, and it wanes. Repeat as necessary. It's people searching for the middle ground. Making sure the balance of power doesn't go too far in one direction.

I realize that's pretty extremist of us (or at least me), but hey, that's my opinion.

Bubba

 

[HA25]

Then the height of irony: you tell me I'm extremist right wing because I said I believe in balance between unions and management (by the way, the logical and practical definition of "balance" alludes to being in the center). Then you tell me that if I don't believe exactly as you do as far as unionism goes (that US unions should be like European ones and that US unions haven't enough power), then I'm obviously a union hater. "You're with us or against us" was your quote. And apparently in your mind, that makes you a centrist. Good God Ohgoon, do you even hear the stuff coming out of your mouth?

Bubba

You do understand that some of us dont see the balance of power as being equal between unions and management in this country, especially with the RLA and us pilots, right? Europe shows more balance of power in my traveled world view.

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba

Ok Bubster,

sad to see there is no reaching you. In the hermetically sealed bubble of your world you are completely right.

What is the most laughable of all is that you really see yourself and this country of ours as different and apart from Europe rather than the logical extension and continuation of it. We are a part of Europe, philosophically, religiously and economically. We are not that different.

Ask yourself why the "Greatest Generation" risked life, limb and treasure on D-Day and beyond if they didn't see Europe as their ancestral home?

Put another way, the progression and evolution of Western Democracy goes something like this. Socrates, Aristotle, Roman Congress, Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress, US Constitution, French Revolution and the emergence of a Democratic Europe after two World Wars.

Where in this, do you see a complete break? You lack perspective if you believe our little tax revolt against King George in the 1770s was the one event that separates us from the "Ovine" crowds of Europe.

In the meantime, enjoy your jingoistic fantasies of moral and cultural superiority while they last. World events will force an awakening on even the most myopic of us in the US soon enough!

Goodonya.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You do understand that some of us dont see the balance of power as being equal between unions and management in this country, especially with the RLA and us pilots, right? Europe shows more balance of power in my traveled world view.

Sure I understand that you and Ohgoon don't see the balance of power as equal in this country, compared to Europe. I get it, really. But you don't seem to understand that not everyone in this country agrees with you two, and not agreeing with you doesn't make them extremists, or even wrong. Also, the RLA applied to airline employment is a government thing. I agree that it's different than how other unions are treated, but the government keeps it that way because they see the airlines as essential as rail was back in the day. If you don't like that, take it up with President Obama, although I don't see even his administration changing it.

By the way, I find it ironic that you're clamoring with Ohgoon for more unionization (or at least to make them as powerful as Europe's unions). Seeing as how you personally blamed unions for bad service on this exact thread earlier:

I blame the over unionization of FAs, "Customer Service" Agents, and other personell who are employed by the airlines to deal with the public, and instead of putting on the best possible face for our employers, so many of them disregard the most basic needs of a person, such as their basic human dignity

You've actually named one issue with a union having too much power (granted, that's subjective): if it does have so much power that members are protected to the point where they can't get fired or even disciplined unless they're convicted of a felony, then there's no accountability, and therefore incentive to actually do your job--in customer service positions, that means actually being nice to the customers.

Or did you mean that only pilots should have unions, because we don't have as much interaction with the customers requiring our "best possible face"?

Bubba

 

[HA25]

Or did you mean that only pilots should have unions, because we don't have as much interaction with the customers requiring our "best possible face"?

Bubba

That's exactly what meant. ...

 

[SWA Bubba]

That's exactly what meant. ...

Man! Ohgoon's gonna' be disappointed in you!

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ohgoon,
So you don't get confused, or irate, my comments embedded in your quote are red simply for contrast.

Ok Bubster,

sad to see there is no reaching you. In the hermetically sealed bubble of your world you are completely right.

What is the most laughable of all is that you really see yourself and this country of ours as different and apart from Europe rather than the logical extension and continuation of it. We are a part of Europe, philosophically, religiously and economically. We are not that different.

Ask yourself why the "Greatest Generation" risked life, limb and treasure on D-Day and beyond if they didn't see Europe as their ancestral home?

Actually, they saw England specifically as their ancestral home, and then fought for continued freedom in Europe against OTHER European people(primarily against the strongest power in the EU now). It was a war against totalinarianism, extremism. And then when that was done, we fought an even longer war (the Cold War) against Left extemism.

Put another way, the progression and evolution of Western Democracy goes something like this. Socrates, Aristotle, Roman Congress, Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress, US Constitution, French Revolution and the emergence of a Democratic Europe after two World Wars.

This has nothing to do with your desired progression to socialism.

Where in this, do you see a complete break? You lack perspective if you believe our little tax revolt against King George in the 1770s was the one event that separates us from the "Ovine" crowds of Europe.

More below.

In the meantime, enjoy your jingoistic fantasies of moral and cultural superiority while they last.

I never said our morals or culture was superior. I said it's different, and that I liked it better, and I think it works better. That's why I live here instead of going there. On the other hand, you live here but bitch that it's better over there.

World events will force an awakening on even the most myopic of us in the US soon enough!

Sounds even more ominous than the Mayan apocalypse!

Goodonya.

"Our little tax revolt"?

Perhaps you might want to revisit your history and civics classes. That little tax revolt you referred to was a little bit more than that. It was one people divorcing themselves from another because they didn't like the way the goverment functioned. And then forming a new country. And then fighting a multi-year war, at great cost, to ensure its survival. And then creating a new constitution specifically refuting the old way, and specifically limiting the power of the federal government: all powers not SPECIFICALLY granted in the Constitution to the federal government are reserved to the states, and to the people.

Minimizing such a historically significant event because it doesn't fit your point of view, and dismissing the Constitution because it is actually counter to your desire for one central world government, is NOT an actual argument.

Do many Americans view Europe as its ancestral home? Sure we do, myself included. However, that does NOT make us "part of Europe" or a "logical extension and continuation of it." If we were, we'd still be part of the UK, call ourselves 'subjects' and swear allegiance to the Queen. As I said before, and then you pretended it didn't happen, we actually refuted all that so that we could be a different type of country.

And now I'm just a jingoist because I like the principles our country founded itself on, and want to see them preserved? And of course, you're the enlightened one because you want to take the the path of least resistance, and surrender our autonomy and independence to "Mother Europe" and the EU, so that we can be taken care of by the central government. I can see why you think yourself a centrist.

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Ohgoon,
So you don't get confused, or irate, my comments embedded in your quote are red simply for contrast.




"Our little tax revolt"?

Perhaps you might want to revisit your history and civics classes. That little tax revolt you referred to was a little bit more than that. It was one people divorcing themselves from another because they didn't like the way the goverment functioned. And then forming a new country. And then fighting a multi-year war, at great cost, to ensure its survival. And then creating a new constitution specifically refuting the old way, and specifically limiting the power of the federal government: all powers not SPECIFICALLY granted in the Constitution to the federal government are reserved to the states, and to the people.

Minimizing such a historically significant event because it doesn't fit your point of view, and dismissing the Constitution because it is actually counter to your desire for one central world government, is NOT an actual argument.

Do many Americans view Europe as its ancestral home? Sure we do, myself included. However, that does NOT make us "part of Europe" or a "logical extension and continuation of it." If we were, we'd still be part of the UK, call ourselves 'subjects' and swear allegiance to the Queen. As I said before, and then you pretended it didn't happen, we actually refuted all that so that we could be a different type of country.

And now I'm just a jingoist because I like the principles our country founded itself on, and want to see them preserved? And of course, you're the enlightened one because you want to take the the path of least resistance, and surrender our autonomy and independence to "Mother Europe" and the EU, so that we can be taken care of by the central government. I can see why you think yourself a centrist.

Bubba

Where do I start? So much misinformation in so few little words.

BTW in your earlier post. Not my Quote! Maybe made by someone else who argues my point of view, but this was not made by me.

a)Oh so my grandfather who is of Polish, German ancestry fought in WWII because he only saw England as his ancestral home? He's still around, wanna guess what his response to this will be? You are so confused.

b)Socialism is a part of that progression I listed, it's not the big bad pooh bah you are so scared of. Soviet Style Communism is not socialism! It was totalitarianism that misappropriated some of Karl Marx's socialistic ideas. Ever actually read any of his writings? Did you know that Karl Marx was all about freedom? Freedom from being enslaved by the industrial revolution. Freedom to be able to just go to your local church on Sundays to worship without the fear of getting fired from your job.

c)You never said the US culture was superior moral or otherwise... You didn't have to. It's so implied in the social political discourse in our country today that it is just accepted as a truth. So no you didn't say it, but you are really going to stand here and tell me that you don't feel that way? Please...

d)No, I don't think it's going to be like the Mayan thing at all. This time it will have profound effects on your's and mine lifestyles for generations to come. No amount of sticking your pretty little conservative heads into the sand will prevent it.

e) And now to the whopper of them all. "We are so different" "We are better than they are".... This attitude you display here is precisely why the rest of the world laughs at us more and more each day. I have news for you. WE ARE AN EXTENSION OF EUROPE. I never said we are still a colony, but we are another step in the progression and evolution of how an educated (hope lives eternal) population attempts to govern itself.

You don't even know your own history about how the Constitution came about, and you sit here telling me about it. Let me help you. The first body of government our white European Founding Fathers dreamed up was called the Continental Congress. It was all about States rights and had no central Federal component to it. It failed badly mostly because whatever it tried to do, it did not have its own funds to do it with. (No powers of taxation)

So after watching this mess and realizing how vulnerable they were to England re invading their colony to restore order, the Founding Fathers reconvened again and wrote the Constitution as we know it today. It, for the first time established a centralized form of governance. It established the idea that Federal law superceeds state law. It established a leader (President) who could command an army etc. It also allowed for direct taxation of the population so it could have an independent treasury that could enforce it's new laws and decrees. So the Constitution was created not to limit Federal Power but rather it created Federal Power in the first place. It's just amazing how many of you right wingers keep quoting the Constitution without ever actually understanding what that Document actually does and does not do. Let me say it again. The Constitution was not created to limit Federal Power, it created it.

As far as my desires for a one world government or whatever you are trying to imply here. It's just so much nonsense... Please where in my posts have I pleaded for that?

The really ironic thing is that this paranoid conspiratorial worldview may actually have some merit insofar as that most things in our present time are being controlled by major corporations who are worldwide, have no popularly elected officers and are basically under the control of only a few very economically powerful people who really answer to no one but themselves. This is what you weenies love to call the "free market" So in some bizarre way, your blindness is actually contributing to your worst nightmare!