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[SWA Bubba]

I don't think they do unions better in Europe. The main difference is that Europe's population is thankfully still very pro union which makes it politically dangerous to be seen as too aggressively anti union, therefore most companies have stopped their eternal war with them. Instead in many countries they integrate Union reps right into the management structure up to and including their Board of Directors. It leads to greater understanding of each others problems which makes for more honest compromises that benefit both sides. The end result is that both sides naturally must learn to coexist rather than continually attempt to wipe each other off the face of the earth.

By contrast, the US population has allowed itself to be swindled into believing that Unions are bad for the economy, etc resulting in a very hostile anti Union environment. This in turn allows most management to take incredibly aggressive anti worker positions without paying any political price. Add it all up and you have a recipe for very confrontational Labor relations.

Put another way, why should a worker feel loyalty or go above and beyond when he/she is constantly given the message that they don't matter and are totally replaceable whenever management feels like it? Blaming Unions for this state of affairs is like blaming the deer when some drunk hunter falls out of his blind and breaks his neck.

Sorry, but I disagree.

European companies "tolerate" unions better that in the US, not because they're more enlightened, but because they have to. Their further left-of-center laws require it. As a matter of law, they have no other choice, so unions have much more power in Europe than they do here.

And this is the fallacy in the argument you presented above: you assume that management's motives are always bad, and that unions' motives are always good. Therefore your conclusion: "the unions have the power, so the result MUST be the fair one." Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "fair."

In actuality, there needs to be a balance. Neither side can have too much power. We're still fighting that battle over here, but in my opinion, the Europeans have already lost. Their unions have way too much power, as a result of their societies' socialist leanings. The unions have extracted so many benefits and entitlements out of the government (ie taxpayer), that the countries are imploding under the weight of financial obligations they'll never be able to meet, under any circumstances.

Ever.

That's your idea of "fair"?

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

European companies "tolerate" unions better that in the US, not because they're more enlightened, but because they have to. Their further left-of-center laws require it. As a matter of law, they have no other choice, so unions have much more power in Europe than they do here.

Those laws are what is more enlightened about Europe. Most people recognize that Unions are an important part of their social fabric over there and they support that, not just tolerate it.

After the tragedy of WWII, they recognized that extremism of any kind is not good for the public good. They therefore embarked on a strategy of making sure that most things remain calm and steady, middle of the road. Socialism is not considered a bad thing over there, nor is the term purposely misused to scare people like it's being done here in the US.

And this is the fallacy in the argument you presented above: you assume that management's motives are always bad, and that unions' motives are always good. Therefore your conclusion: "the unions have the power, so the result MUST be the fair one." Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "fair."

In actuality, there needs to be a balance. Neither side can have too much power. We're still fighting that battle over here, but in my opinion, the Europeans have already lost. Their unions have way too much power, as a result of their societies' socialist leanings. The unions have extracted so many benefits and entitlements out of the government (ie taxpayer), that the countries are imploding under the weight of financial obligations they'll never be able to meet, under any circumstances.

Ever.

That's your idea of "fair"?

Bubba

Well, Bubba if you put it like they do on Hannitty's show or Fat Bastard Radio Hour then of course that doesn't look fair. The hidden blessing is that their version of what they want to tell us about Europe is a gross exaggeration. Europe did not loose its battle about Unionization, they won it and put it to bed! Europe is also not collapsing under its own weight of financial obligations. Instead, they are suffering from an identity crisis which has led them to not finishing the conversion to the Euro completely. In other words they share a currency while still allowing separate monetary policies. This has predictably devolved into the current fiscal mess. They could fix it quite easily though by just issuing a European Bond and the whole thing goes away. (Kind of like the US Bond compensating for the fact that Mississippi is a total financial basket case.) The problem is that many people in Europe, just like here in the US, are nostalgic for the past and don't realize that this irrational, emotional baggage is keeping them from a more prosperous and stable future. The obvious and sane economic solution is being held up by tribal political concerns that are difficult to manage by politicians who may still feel the need to stay in office.

Why is it that Americans like you, are always so convinced that life in Europe is so bad, when in actuality Europe exceeds the US in quality of life scores by almost any measure you care to look at? Do you have personal experience of having lived there?

BTW: Are you also against SWAPA making it more difficult for LUV"s management to pull off the merger between you and the AT crews, or are you in this case fully on the "socialistic" side in order to protect what you feel is rightfully yours? I guess it really is just a matter of perspective.

 

[HA25]

Sorry, but I disagree.

European companies "tolerate" unions better that in the US, not because they're more enlightened, but because they have to. Their further left-of-center laws require it. As a matter of law, they have no other choice, so unions have much more power in Europe than they do here.

And this is the fallacy in the argument you presented above: you assume that management's motives are always bad, and that unions' motives are always good. Therefore your conclusion: "the unions have the power, so the result MUST be the fair one." Well, I suppose it depends on how you define "fair."

In actuality, there needs to be a balance. Neither side can have too much power. We're still fighting that battle over here, but in my opinion, the Europeans have already lost. Their unions have way too much power, as a result of their societies' socialist leanings. The unions have extracted so many benefits and entitlements out of the government (ie taxpayer), that the countries are imploding under the weight of financial obligations they'll never be able to meet, under any circumstances.

Ever.

That's your idea of "fair"?

Bubba

last time I checked, Dimler, BMW, and VW/Audi group were extremely profitable, making top quality cars and doing so with strong unions. Same applies to Airbus, Siemens, and dozens of German companies that both understand the importance of unions and respect them...

Ever wonder why we're so dysfunctional and they're not?

There is something rotten in how American business is muscled around by Wall St.. that's the rotten problem. Frankfurt doesn't dictate what German business does like Wall St does here.

 

[OHGOON]

last time I checked, Dimler, BMW, and VW/Audi group were extremely profitable, making top quality cars and doing so with strong unions. Same applies to Airbus, Siemens, and dozens of German companies that both understand the importance of unions and respect them...

Ever wonder why we're so dysfunctional and they're not?

There is something rotten in how American business is muscled around by Wall St.. that's the rotten problem. Frankfurt doesn't dictate what German business does like Wall St does here.

Couldn't agree with this more, especially about what a strangle hold Wall St. has on American business. They enforce quarterly profit considerations over long term financial planing every time and then we wonder why our industries are not as competitive as they should be. It's the equivalent of the mob protection racket on a grander scale.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Those laws are what is more enlightened about Europe. Most people recognize that Unions are an important part of their social fabric over there and they support that, not just tolerate it.

Saying something--anything--"shows enlightenment" is nothing more than the speaker's opinion. If what you like is acted on, then of course, they're "enlightened." If they do what you don't like, then they just obviously don't know any better. Statistically speaking, with this country's continually declining union membership numbers, would you say that the US is becoming "less and less enlightened"?

After the tragedy of WWII, they recognized that extremism of any kind is not good for the public good. They therefore embarked on a strategy of making sure that most things remain calm and steady, middle of the road. Socialism is not considered a bad thing over there, nor is the term purposely misused to scare people like it's being done here in the US.

Again, it is opinion that making things "calm, steady and middle of the road" is the best thing for everyone. And I renew my opinion that the people of Europe are so used to being told what to do for centuries, that they go along with whatever they're told to do. That ovine behavior is not necessarily good.


Well, Bubba if you put it like they do on Hannitty's show or Fat Bastard Radio Hour then of course that doesn't look fair. The hidden blessing is that their version of what they want to tell us about Europe is a gross exaggeration.

I've heard of Hannitty, but not Fat Bastard Radio Hour, but my opinions are my own. I don't watch Fox news OR MSNBC. Do right wing people accentuate unions' missteps and problems? I'm sure they. But I'm just as sure that left wing people minimize and cover them up. That's called politics.


Europe did not loose its battle about Unionization, they won it and put it to bed!

This is of course purely opinion, held by left wing believers. Others think differently. Kinda' like the US thinking the Vietnam was was lost, while the Vietnamese communists think the war was won.


Europe is also not collapsing under its own weight of financial obligations. Instead, they are suffering from an identity crisis which has led them to not finishing the conversion to the Euro completely. In other words they share a currency while still allowing separate monetary policies. This has predictably devolved into the current fiscal mess. They could fix it quite easily though by just issuing a European Bond and the whole thing goes away.

This is what's called a rationalization. They most certainly are collapsing financially. It's pie in the sky to think that it's simple to fix, just by "issuing bonds" or finishing the Euro conversion. The countries in the biggest trouble are already using the Euro; there's only a few that don't these days. As a matter of fact, the UK (one of the few countries who don't, hasn't because they're afraid it will hurt them too much). And saying that issuing anything will solve the problem of absurdly excessive obligations tied to insufficient income is nothing more than denial bordering on lunacy.

(Kind of like the US Bond compensating for the fact that Mississippi is a total financial basket case.)

Ironic that you should use Mississippi as your US example. In 2010 (the year I saw data for), there were only three states that took in more federal dollars than they contributed in taxes. Do you get what that means? The federal government was helping support them with other states' money, i.e. they were a drain on the rest of us. Know what those states were? California, New York and Michigan. The first two, the most left-leaning, "trying to be Europe" states; while Michigan made the list probably due to the massive unemployment tied to problems with the auto industry.


The problem is that many people in Europe, just like here in the US, are nostalgic for the past and don't realize that this irrational, emotional baggage is keeping them from a more prosperous and stable future. The obvious and sane economic solution is being held up by tribal political concerns that are difficult to manage by politicians who may still feel the need to stay in office.

Got it--if they'd only let go, and let big brother take care of them, everything will be fine. The government will give you everything they tell you that you need.

Why is it that Americans like you, are always so convinced that life in Europe is so bad, when in actuality Europe exceeds the US in quality of life scores by almost any measure you care to look at? Do you have personal experience of having lived there?

Quality of life is the most subjective term of art in existence. Hell, just ask any Airtran pilot about that. I've spent a lot of time in Europe, and although I've lived in Asia, I haven't in Europe. However, I would never want to LIVE anywhere but the US. In my opinion, quality of life starts first and foremost at freedom. Part of that means the freedom to achieve whatever I can through MY work; and to not have my wealth "averaged" with everyone else, for the collective good.

If you think their system is so much better, why don't YOU live over there? That's not a gibe, it's a legitimate question. Speaking of immigration and emigration, and discounting Latin America, why do you think more Europeans immigrate here than Americans emigrate to Europe?

BTW: Are you also against SWAPA making it more difficult for LUV"s management to pull off the merger between you and the AT crews, or are you in this case fully on the "socialistic" side in order to protect what you feel is rightfully yours? I guess it really is just a matter of perspective.

I'm trying to figure what you mean here; you have too many negatives. To answer what I think you're asking, I'm for SWAPA and management working together to get this deal done as quickly and efficiently as possible for everyone's sake--employees', management's and shareholders' alike. I don't know if I answered what you asked or not.

Bubba

 

[HA25]

Bubba, thank your union for the wages you make at Southwest... I assure you were it not for them you'd be making a lot less.

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba,

really living up to your handle aren't we? You like colors, maybe I'll use blue. Kind of appropriate don't you think??

Listen, living in a military compound surrounded by other Americans is hardly living abroad. You have never lived in Europe by your own admission, well I have and I liked it there. The people for the most part are more open minded and certainly better educated. Who are you to ask me why I don't just live there? What pure arrogance of "Love it or leave it" is this?? While it's none of your business, I will say this. I would if I could with absolutely no regrets! I would blow this joint so fast you have no idea, there are however certain personal situations beyond my control that keep me stuck here for now. Some freedom huh?

Statistically speaking, with this country's continually declining union membership numbers, would you say that the US is becoming "less and less enlightened"?

You said it, I didn't, but you're onto something...

I renew my opinion that the people of Europe are so used to being told what to do for centuries, that they go along with whatever they're told to do. That ovine behavior is...

This claim is pure jingoistic ignorance There are stupid people everywhere exhibiting "ovine" behavior as illustrated by you here quite well.

Kinda' like the US thinking the Vietnam was was lost, while the Vietnamese communists think the war was won.

Isn't that what most people on this planet agreed on actually happened?


As far as Europe financially collapsing; they are no more collapsing as we are. They are in debt to China too but not nearly as much as the US is. Greece is not all of Europe and neither is Spain, Italy, Portugal or Ireland. Those tiny (economical impact speaking) is only a problem because most banks are over-invested in those local stocks. Nothing a bailout and some sound fiscal reform, ie Euro Bonds, can't fix.

Ironic that you should use Mississippi as your US example. In 2010 (the year I saw data for), there were only three states that took in more federal dollars than they contributed in taxes. Do you get what that means? The federal government was helping support them with other states' money, i.e. they were a drain on the rest of us. Know what those states were? California, New York and Michigan...

UHMM, You claimed you don't follow Fox Noise and "think for yourself"... Does that include making up facts too? Actually California comes in at #43 of all states when it comes to taking vs giving Federal Tax Dollars. That's for every $1 Cali sends to Uncle Sam, it gets back 78¢
Take a look for yourself.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/11/16/whos-subsidizing-whom-varneys-crusade-on-ca-rev/173392

The problem is that many people in Europe, just like here in the US, are nostalgic for the past and don't realize that this irrational, emotional baggage is keeping them from a more prosperous and stable future. The obvious and sane economic solution is being held up by tribal political concerns that are difficult to manage by politicians who may still feel the need to stay in office.

I was reffering to antiquated patriotic emotional baggage. Try to keep up, will you?

Got it--if they'd only let go, and let big brother take care of them, everything will be fine. The government will give you everything they tell you that you need.

Nice "Fat Bastard Radio" claim. How is this germane to what I was saying? Too much Oxycontin in your diet lately too. Must be affecting your reading comprehension and not just your hearing?

...quality of life starts first and foremost at freedom. Part of that means the freedom to achieve whatever I can through MY work; and to not have my wealth "averaged" with everyone else, for the collective good.

AH, and here we have the crux of your problem. You believe you can achieve all that by yourself in a vacuum. No one else required or desired.
Good luck maintaining that illusion over time...

BTW: Are you also against SWAPA making it more difficult for LUV"s management to pull off the merger between you and the AT crews, or are you in this case fully on the "socialistic" side in order to protect what you feel is rightfully yours? I guess it really is just a matter of perspective.

Nice try at avoiding what I'm asking you here. Too many negatives my a$$... You know exactly what I'm saying here, but allow me to sharpen this further. Are you a hypocrite? Do you support something for yourself that you would deny others for purely ideological reasons?

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

really living up to your handle aren't we? You like colors, maybe I'll use blue. Kind of appropriate don't you think??


.......




Nice try at avoiding what I'm asking you here. Too many negatives my a$$... You know exactly what I'm saying here, but allow me to sharpen this further. Are you a hypocrite? Do you support something for yourself that you would deny others for purely ideological reasons?

[Moved response to a private message/discussion with OHGOON. I'm sure the rest of you are sick of this...]

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, thank your union for the wages you make at Southwest... I assure you were it not for them you'd be making a lot less.

I never said othewise. I've never said that unions are evil and shouldn't exist. Never. I believe quite the opposite, in fact. However, I said that there needs to be a balance. Too much power on either the management side OR the union side is bad. Do you guys really not agree with that? Do you really think that given unlimited power, that unions will always do the "fair" or best thing? Anymore than management would?

Both you and OHGOON fell into the mindset that since I'm not as far left as you too, that I must be an extremist to the right. Don't pigeon-hole me. I'm saying too far left OR too far right is bad. I try to live near the center.

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Both you and OHGOON fell into the mindset that since I'm not as far left as you too, that I must be an extremist to the right. Don't pigeon-hole me. I'm saying too far left OR too far right is bad. I try to live near the center.

Bubba

This is what you believe great! What you said however is quite different. Hence my quarrel with what you posted. I responded to you in private as you wish but I would have preferred it to remain public. I am not embarrassed about my positions. What's so difficult about this anyway? Anyone who doesn't like it can click away at anytime.

BTW: If you don't want to be pigeon-holed then you should not start. There is nothing left wing about supporting Unions. (Most pilots are decidedly right wing but still support theirs) I never claimed that Unions should be all powerful, you purposely overstated and misinterpreted my position. So with all due respect, if you don't want blowback, don't breath so heavy in the first place!