No comment

[HA25]

I never said othewise. I've never said that unions are evil and shouldn't exist. Never. I believe quite the opposite, in fact. However, I said that there needs to be a balance. Too much power on either the management side OR the union side is bad. Do you guys really not agree with that? Do you really think that given unlimited power, that unions will always do the "fair" or best thing? Anymore than management would?

Both you and OHGOON fell into the mindset that since I'm not as far left as you too, that I must be an extremist to the right. Don't pigeon-hole me. I'm saying too far left OR too far right is bad. I try to live near the center.

Bubba

This is the height of irony... anyone who knows me on here from my Non-Aviation chat can tell you I'm neither left or right.. I'm Catholic. That actually has a lot of genuine lefties very hot at me.. I'm pro-life, pro-traditional family values, and very conservative on many things, as my Church is..
I also belong to the NRA own two rifles and a Sig 229 pistol..

But by the same token, like my Church, I'm very pro-union.. in general on the economic issues, I'm more left leaning, as my Church is.. I'm for universal healthcare, and safety nets for the poor.. As for unions and too much power.. there is no balance here in the US, not even close.. that balance exists in the EU. The only place I can think of that's worse that the US is China and the Middle East..

 

[dustrpilot]

Catholics are cool! I'm not catholic by the way, just sayin.

 

[HA25]

Catholics are cool! I'm not catholic by the way, just sayin.

thanks, 99% of the responses I'd get to my above post would be very different, I commend you on your outside the norm post.

 

[SWA Bubba]

This is what you believe great! What you said however is quite different. Hence my quarrel with what you posted. I responded to you in private as you wish but I would have preferred it to remain public. I am not embarrassed about my positions. What's so difficult about this anyway? Anyone who doesn't like it can click away at anytime.

BTW: If you don't want to be pigeon-holed then you should not start. There is nothing left wing about supporting Unions. (Most pilots are decidedly right wing but still support theirs) I never claimed that Unions should be all powerful, you purposely overstated and misinterpreted my position. So with all due respect, if you don't want blowback, don't breath so heavy in the first place!

You should probably reread what I've said. I've been consistent in my statements, and what I believe is what I said.

Blowback? You lob personal attacks at anyone who doesn't agree with your definition of enlightened. Let's see, so far you've called me ignorant, stupid, implied more by "living up to your name" comment, told me I "must be taking too many Oxycontins," etc. You're a peach to debate. Just because I don't believe the same as you.

Then the height of irony: you tell me I'm extremist right wing because I said I believe in balance between unions and management (by the way, the logical and practical definition of "balance" alludes to being in the center). Then you tell me that if I don't believe exactly as you do as far as unionism goes (that US unions should be like European ones and that US unions haven't enough power), then I'm obviously a union hater. "You're with us or against us" was your quote. And apparently in your mind, that makes you a centrist. Good God Ohgoon, do you even hear the stuff coming out of your mouth?

I DO support my union. So far, my union works pretty well with its counterpart. Working together instead of against each other is better for everyone. We work hard, but we get compensated very well. The company stays profitable, and we have job security. Why does that sound so evil to you?

I DON'T support the idea that unions can do anything that they want, and that the proper goal is for them to get the most amount of money from a company while delivering as little work as humanly possible. If that's your goal, then you're no different than a company trying to get the most amount of work for little or no money. As I have said, time and again, the "fair" thing is something in the middle.

And yes, I understand that in your eyes, that makes me an extremist.

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba,

I'm tired of debating you. You took your worst offline for whatever reason and despite answering you line by line you keep lobbing the same old horse-pucky everywhere. You know, endless repetition of nonsense will not make it any less nonsensical.

I initially took issue with your ridiculously prejudicial statements about Europe and its people being "ovine", remember? Then you tried to disparage its Union movement without having any factual knowledge other than what you heard somewhere.

Now when I effectively challenge you, you want to back pedal and make yourself out to be the victim that is being attacked unreasonably? Cry me a river why don't ya... Sorry bub, if you're gonna risk spouting ignorant generalities before thinking them through then you are going to have to take your just medicine.

I stand by what I posted. If you want my tone to change, try countering my arguments factually for a change. Good luck.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

I'm tired of debating you. You took your worst offline for whatever reason and despite answering you line by line you keep lobbing the same old horse-pucky everywhere. You know, endless repetition of nonsense will not make it any less nonsensical.

I initially took issue with your ridiculously prejudicial statements about Europe and its people being "ovine", remember? Then you tried to disparage its Union movement without having any factual knowledge other than what you heard somewhere.

Now when I effectively challenge you, you want to back pedal and make yourself out to be the victim that is being attacked unreasonably? Cry me a river why don't ya... Sorry bub, if you're gonna risk spouting ignorant generalities before thinking them through then you are going to have to take your just medicine.

I stand by what I posted. If you want my tone to change, try countering my arguments factually for a change. Good luck.

Pay attention, I've never backpedaled in debating you. Never. I've never changed a stated opinion, only sought to clarify them after your posts. I've never claimed victim status; I merely said that your characterization of me due to my beliefs is ironic, which it is. However, I will say that attacking someone personally in a debate because you don't agree with them, IS unreasonable, and of that you are guilty.

I stand by my assertion that unions are important (and I support mine), but should not have too much power (nor should any side in a check and balance situation), which I've said from the beginning. I stand by my assertion that European unions have too much power. You certainly must agree that they have more power than in this country, and I've stated that it is my opinoin that it is too much over there. I've always said unions' power and managements' power is a balancing act. For that you label me an "extremist." In your own words, since I don't agree with you on union matters--which for some strange reason, you think is the center--then I'm clearly against you and all unions. You certainly have, in my mind, a strange world view.

Tell you what... I'm getting tired for now, so how about tomorrow I'll look up a few examples of European union issues to which I refer as being excessive power. Would that be an honest debate, or will you call me more names?

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba,

So you never said that Europeans are ovine? Is that an example of your fair and balanced approach? Please don't assume that everyone's attention span and or memory is less than the average soundbite on TV just because yours seem to be. Nope, you said it, I called you on it, and now you desperately are trying to claw yourself back to "reasonable." Not really working...

As far as attacking you personally, get over yourself. If I had called you a poopy stink face you might have a point but all I actually did was poke fun at your shamelessly biased "assertions" that illustrate your penchant for confusing opinion with fact. That's hilarious, and it richly deserves ridicule but it's not a personal attack. Of course if you want to take it personally I can't really stop you can I? On the other hand, I did call you ignorant, that's true; but what would you call someone who makes uneducated and prejudicial claims about people and things they have no first hand knowledge of?

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

So you never said that Europeans are ovine? Is that an example of your fair and balanced approach? Please don't assume that everyone's attention span and or memory is less than the average soundbite on TV just because yours seem to be. Nope, you said it, I called you on it, and now you desperately are trying to claw yourself back to "reasonable." Not really working...

As far as attacking you personally, get over yourself. If I had called you a poopy stink face you might have a point but all I actually did was poke fun at your shamelessly biased "assertions" that illustrate your penchant for confusing opinion with fact. That's hilarious, and it richly deserves ridicule but it's not a personal attack. Of course if you want to take it personally I can't really stop you can I? On the other hand, I did call you ignorant, that's true; but what would you call someone who makes uneducated and prejudicial claims about people and things they have no first hand knowledge of?

Really, so THAT's what this is about? I didn't realize that I had to repeat every part of every post to avoid being accused of backpedaling. And here I thought that you were upset because of my views that things should be "fair" and "balanced" (and I don't mean Fox News version!) vs. one-sided was the reason for your vitriol. I guess I thought that, because that's actually what you said. But it turns out, that because I made the comment about Europe historically acting ovine, THAT's the reason I'm an extremist while you're a centrist. Got it.

Okay, I hereby reiterate that I stand by my comment that Europe has historically acted ovine. Happy now? I don't backpedal on that either. I suppose you're upset because I used the term "ovine" to describe their behavior vs your idea of "enlightened." Just because a term doesn't sound flattering to you doesn't make it not an arguably valid comment. Anymore than I could get upset if you described Americans as a whole as "arrogant."

Why did I say that? History: The Crusades. One corrupt empire after another. The Soviet Union (and all of the Eastern Bloc, for that matter). Hitler's Germany. Etc. The people, for the most part, just followed along with what they were told, even when it was obvious that it was wrong. Did all? Of course not. But the general population did. That's compared to this country, which was actually founded because we didn't like getting pushed around unfairly by the government. That's why we have checks and balances. Opposition. That's why we yell at each other all the time. To ensure that everyone gets heard, and one point of view doesn't always dominate.

Which brings me to Europe's turn to the left since the 1960s and 70s. Increasing reliance on the government, more collectivization, surrendering autonomy to the central government (in the case of the EU, to being told what to do by somebody above your country's government). Once again,... European people being led. Surrendering individuality to the collective is the very definition of "ovine," Ohgoon. Having the government making more and more decisions for you, because they "know better" than you is not, in a sense, the American way. At least we're not going without kicking and screaming. That's why, in this country, you see cycles of power going left and then right. Union power grows, and it wanes. Repeat as necessary. It's people searching for the middle ground. Making sure the balance of power doesn't go too far in one direction.

I realize that's pretty extremist of us (or at least me), but hey, that's my opinion.

Bubba

 

[HA25]

Then the height of irony: you tell me I'm extremist right wing because I said I believe in balance between unions and management (by the way, the logical and practical definition of "balance" alludes to being in the center). Then you tell me that if I don't believe exactly as you do as far as unionism goes (that US unions should be like European ones and that US unions haven't enough power), then I'm obviously a union hater. "You're with us or against us" was your quote. And apparently in your mind, that makes you a centrist. Good God Ohgoon, do you even hear the stuff coming out of your mouth?

Bubba

You do understand that some of us dont see the balance of power as being equal between unions and management in this country, especially with the RLA and us pilots, right? Europe shows more balance of power in my traveled world view.

 

[OHGOON]

Bubba

Ok Bubster,

sad to see there is no reaching you. In the hermetically sealed bubble of your world you are completely right.

What is the most laughable of all is that you really see yourself and this country of ours as different and apart from Europe rather than the logical extension and continuation of it. We are a part of Europe, philosophically, religiously and economically. We are not that different.

Ask yourself why the "Greatest Generation" risked life, limb and treasure on D-Day and beyond if they didn't see Europe as their ancestral home?

Put another way, the progression and evolution of Western Democracy goes something like this. Socrates, Aristotle, Roman Congress, Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress, US Constitution, French Revolution and the emergence of a Democratic Europe after two World Wars.

Where in this, do you see a complete break? You lack perspective if you believe our little tax revolt against King George in the 1770s was the one event that separates us from the "Ovine" crowds of Europe.

In the meantime, enjoy your jingoistic fantasies of moral and cultural superiority while they last. World events will force an awakening on even the most myopic of us in the US soon enough!

Goodonya.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You do understand that some of us dont see the balance of power as being equal between unions and management in this country, especially with the RLA and us pilots, right? Europe shows more balance of power in my traveled world view.

Sure I understand that you and Ohgoon don't see the balance of power as equal in this country, compared to Europe. I get it, really. But you don't seem to understand that not everyone in this country agrees with you two, and not agreeing with you doesn't make them extremists, or even wrong. Also, the RLA applied to airline employment is a government thing. I agree that it's different than how other unions are treated, but the government keeps it that way because they see the airlines as essential as rail was back in the day. If you don't like that, take it up with President Obama, although I don't see even his administration changing it.

By the way, I find it ironic that you're clamoring with Ohgoon for more unionization (or at least to make them as powerful as Europe's unions). Seeing as how you personally blamed unions for bad service on this exact thread earlier:

I blame the over unionization of FAs, "Customer Service" Agents, and other personell who are employed by the airlines to deal with the public, and instead of putting on the best possible face for our employers, so many of them disregard the most basic needs of a person, such as their basic human dignity

You've actually named one issue with a union having too much power (granted, that's subjective): if it does have so much power that members are protected to the point where they can't get fired or even disciplined unless they're convicted of a felony, then there's no accountability, and therefore incentive to actually do your job--in customer service positions, that means actually being nice to the customers.

Or did you mean that only pilots should have unions, because we don't have as much interaction with the customers requiring our "best possible face"?

Bubba

 

[HA25]

Or did you mean that only pilots should have unions, because we don't have as much interaction with the customers requiring our "best possible face"?

Bubba

That's exactly what meant. ...

 

[SWA Bubba]

That's exactly what meant. ...

Man! Ohgoon's gonna' be disappointed in you!

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ohgoon,
So you don't get confused, or irate, my comments embedded in your quote are red simply for contrast.

Ok Bubster,

sad to see there is no reaching you. In the hermetically sealed bubble of your world you are completely right.

What is the most laughable of all is that you really see yourself and this country of ours as different and apart from Europe rather than the logical extension and continuation of it. We are a part of Europe, philosophically, religiously and economically. We are not that different.

Ask yourself why the "Greatest Generation" risked life, limb and treasure on D-Day and beyond if they didn't see Europe as their ancestral home?

Actually, they saw England specifically as their ancestral home, and then fought for continued freedom in Europe against OTHER European people(primarily against the strongest power in the EU now). It was a war against totalinarianism, extremism. And then when that was done, we fought an even longer war (the Cold War) against Left extemism.

Put another way, the progression and evolution of Western Democracy goes something like this. Socrates, Aristotle, Roman Congress, Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress, US Constitution, French Revolution and the emergence of a Democratic Europe after two World Wars.

This has nothing to do with your desired progression to socialism.

Where in this, do you see a complete break? You lack perspective if you believe our little tax revolt against King George in the 1770s was the one event that separates us from the "Ovine" crowds of Europe.

More below.

In the meantime, enjoy your jingoistic fantasies of moral and cultural superiority while they last.

I never said our morals or culture was superior. I said it's different, and that I liked it better, and I think it works better. That's why I live here instead of going there. On the other hand, you live here but bitch that it's better over there.

World events will force an awakening on even the most myopic of us in the US soon enough!

Sounds even more ominous than the Mayan apocalypse!

Goodonya.

"Our little tax revolt"?

Perhaps you might want to revisit your history and civics classes. That little tax revolt you referred to was a little bit more than that. It was one people divorcing themselves from another because they didn't like the way the goverment functioned. And then forming a new country. And then fighting a multi-year war, at great cost, to ensure its survival. And then creating a new constitution specifically refuting the old way, and specifically limiting the power of the federal government: all powers not SPECIFICALLY granted in the Constitution to the federal government are reserved to the states, and to the people.

Minimizing such a historically significant event because it doesn't fit your point of view, and dismissing the Constitution because it is actually counter to your desire for one central world government, is NOT an actual argument.

Do many Americans view Europe as its ancestral home? Sure we do, myself included. However, that does NOT make us "part of Europe" or a "logical extension and continuation of it." If we were, we'd still be part of the UK, call ourselves 'subjects' and swear allegiance to the Queen. As I said before, and then you pretended it didn't happen, we actually refuted all that so that we could be a different type of country.

And now I'm just a jingoist because I like the principles our country founded itself on, and want to see them preserved? And of course, you're the enlightened one because you want to take the the path of least resistance, and surrender our autonomy and independence to "Mother Europe" and the EU, so that we can be taken care of by the central government. I can see why you think yourself a centrist.

Bubba

 

[OHGOON]

Ohgoon,
So you don't get confused, or irate, my comments embedded in your quote are red simply for contrast.




"Our little tax revolt"?

Perhaps you might want to revisit your history and civics classes. That little tax revolt you referred to was a little bit more than that. It was one people divorcing themselves from another because they didn't like the way the goverment functioned. And then forming a new country. And then fighting a multi-year war, at great cost, to ensure its survival. And then creating a new constitution specifically refuting the old way, and specifically limiting the power of the federal government: all powers not SPECIFICALLY granted in the Constitution to the federal government are reserved to the states, and to the people.

Minimizing such a historically significant event because it doesn't fit your point of view, and dismissing the Constitution because it is actually counter to your desire for one central world government, is NOT an actual argument.

Do many Americans view Europe as its ancestral home? Sure we do, myself included. However, that does NOT make us "part of Europe" or a "logical extension and continuation of it." If we were, we'd still be part of the UK, call ourselves 'subjects' and swear allegiance to the Queen. As I said before, and then you pretended it didn't happen, we actually refuted all that so that we could be a different type of country.

And now I'm just a jingoist because I like the principles our country founded itself on, and want to see them preserved? And of course, you're the enlightened one because you want to take the the path of least resistance, and surrender our autonomy and independence to "Mother Europe" and the EU, so that we can be taken care of by the central government. I can see why you think yourself a centrist.

Bubba

Where do I start? So much misinformation in so few little words.

BTW in your earlier post. Not my Quote! Maybe made by someone else who argues my point of view, but this was not made by me.

a)Oh so my grandfather who is of Polish, German ancestry fought in WWII because he only saw England as his ancestral home? He's still around, wanna guess what his response to this will be? You are so confused.

b)Socialism is a part of that progression I listed, it's not the big bad pooh bah you are so scared of. Soviet Style Communism is not socialism! It was totalitarianism that misappropriated some of Karl Marx's socialistic ideas. Ever actually read any of his writings? Did you know that Karl Marx was all about freedom? Freedom from being enslaved by the industrial revolution. Freedom to be able to just go to your local church on Sundays to worship without the fear of getting fired from your job.

c)You never said the US culture was superior moral or otherwise... You didn't have to. It's so implied in the social political discourse in our country today that it is just accepted as a truth. So no you didn't say it, but you are really going to stand here and tell me that you don't feel that way? Please...

d)No, I don't think it's going to be like the Mayan thing at all. This time it will have profound effects on your's and mine lifestyles for generations to come. No amount of sticking your pretty little conservative heads into the sand will prevent it.

e) And now to the whopper of them all. "We are so different" "We are better than they are".... This attitude you display here is precisely why the rest of the world laughs at us more and more each day. I have news for you. WE ARE AN EXTENSION OF EUROPE. I never said we are still a colony, but we are another step in the progression and evolution of how an educated (hope lives eternal) population attempts to govern itself.

You don't even know your own history about how the Constitution came about, and you sit here telling me about it. Let me help you. The first body of government our white European Founding Fathers dreamed up was called the Continental Congress. It was all about States rights and had no central Federal component to it. It failed badly mostly because whatever it tried to do, it did not have its own funds to do it with. (No powers of taxation)

So after watching this mess and realizing how vulnerable they were to England re invading their colony to restore order, the Founding Fathers reconvened again and wrote the Constitution as we know it today. It, for the first time established a centralized form of governance. It established the idea that Federal law superceeds state law. It established a leader (President) who could command an army etc. It also allowed for direct taxation of the population so it could have an independent treasury that could enforce it's new laws and decrees. So the Constitution was created not to limit Federal Power but rather it created Federal Power in the first place. It's just amazing how many of you right wingers keep quoting the Constitution without ever actually understanding what that Document actually does and does not do. Let me say it again. The Constitution was not created to limit Federal Power, it created it.

As far as my desires for a one world government or whatever you are trying to imply here. It's just so much nonsense... Please where in my posts have I pleaded for that?

The really ironic thing is that this paranoid conspiratorial worldview may actually have some merit insofar as that most things in our present time are being controlled by major corporations who are worldwide, have no popularly elected officers and are basically under the control of only a few very economically powerful people who really answer to no one but themselves. This is what you weenies love to call the "free market" So in some bizarre way, your blindness is actually contributing to your worst nightmare!