Nji

[RNObased]

that's the problem. i know several at nja, none at nji.

if you did get hired at nji, what do they plan to do as they further the integration of the pilot groups? would you lose your spot and be sent to whatever your number would hold or would you be able to stay on the international end? i would hate to make a huge push to get on there and then wind up flying a beech jet between white plains and palm beach for the next 20 years.

Sounds like you want to start out at the top and stay at the top. Good luck with that plan and that attitude.

If you got hired at NJI and IF NJA and NJI merger, two big if's in my book. One thing that probably won't happen, is you keeping a seat on Gwhiz just because you got hired there. There may be a fence or something put in place for a couple of years, but you won't have any special rights over the guys that have actually been flying a Beech jet between HPN and PBI for NJA.

 

[gutshotdraw]

One thing that probably won't happen, is you keeping a seat on Gwhiz just because you got hired there.

Keep dreaming, Sparky.

 

[Archie Bunker]

Keep dreaming, Sparky.

Sparky? Cool.....that's what they used to call us newguy flight engineers on the 727. Hey....wait a minute....was that an insult?

 

[RNObased]

Keep dreaming, Sparky.

Well Gutshot, he may keep his right seat if and I mean if NJA and NJI become one. However if he thinks that he is going from the right seat of Gwhiz to the left of a Gwhiz just because he got hired by NJI, well that is crazy.

Now this is all depending on the NJA and NJI deal. Which we will if it happens.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Anybody who gets hired at NJI off the street this year or even next year will be a Captain on the G-Whiz long before any possible integration.

 

[Archie Bunker]

Anybody who gets hired at NJI off the street this year or even next year will be a Captain on the G-Whiz long before any possible integration.

Very interesting.

So....any predictions as to what will happen to a NJA pilot that slides over to NJI next week? You're saying that he will be a Capt on the G-IV long before any integration of seniority lists take place?

Let's say 3 years from now the seniority lists are combined.....and this NJA turned NJI pilot has an original date of hire in...say....2003. You think that he will remain a G-IV Capt when there are 1800 guys senior to his original date of hire over here on the gold tie side? This has got ugly written all over it, and would go over like a turd in a punchbowl with NJA pilots.

Nothing personal, but I think your example of a pilot hired off the street at NJI in 2007 remaining a G-IV Capt after an integration of seniority lists (if it happens) is pure fantasy. Is that what you were implying, or did I misunderstand you?

 

[gutshotdraw]

No, you didn't misunderstand and it is no fantasy.

NJA pilots coming over to NJI under the letter of understanding are covered by the NJA CBA and 1108 seniority. If they come over as First Officers, they will remain so until their 1108 seniority will allow them to bid an NJI Captain slot under the LOU or they choose to bid an NJA slot on another fleet after the expiration of their seat lock. Meanwhile, the guy hired off the street in their class at NJI will be a Gulfstream Captain 24-36 months from now.

The earliest any integration could possibly take place is late 2009.

And yes, they will still be Captains IF there is ever an integration because the training costs alone will require a fence of existing position.

Meanwhile, the first NJA pilots under the LOU are on the property, from all reports having a blast, and will fly from the right seat until at least their first recurrent (6 months). Upon completion of the NJI upgrade process (per NJI FOM), the NJA Captains will be released as PIC. When flying with another Captain, date of upgrade in the Gulfstream will determine who is PIC.

Last I heard, Gulfstream F/O is going pretty junior (around 1800). So come on over, get a valuable type, and have a good time.

 

[AA717driver]

Seat Grab Alert!!!

They just can't hide their true feelings... TC

 

[jppt2000]

No, you didn't misunderstand and it is no fantasy.

NJA pilots coming over to NJI under the letter of understanding are covered by the NJA CBA and 1108 seniority. If they come over as First Officers, they will remain so until their 1108 seniority will allow them to bid an NJI Captain slot under the LOU or they choose to bid an NJA slot on another fleet after the expiration of their seat lock. Meanwhile, the guy hired off the street in their class at NJI will be a Gulfstream Captain 24-36 months from now.

Where did you get this info? The folks that go over to NJI are placed on inactive status with the union. They live under the same rules as everyone else at NJI does, for now. They start over with vacation accrual, and no more sick day balance to name a few things.

I remember vividly listening to more than a few NJI crews using the same logic around the same time the G200's were introduced. It's a Gulfstream, it's gotta come to NJI.


IMHO, either NJI gets sold off, or an integration occurs where everyone feels they got taken advantage of. I believe someone on here said that's a sign of a equitable integration, where everyone feels equally mistreated.

 

[jppt2000]

Very interesting.

So....any predictions as to what will happen to a NJA pilot that slides over to NJI next week? You're saying that he will be a Capt on the G-IV long before any integration of seniority lists take place?

Let's say 3 years from now the seniority lists are combined.....and this NJA turned NJI pilot has an original date of hire in...say....2003. You think that he will remain a G-IV Capt when there are 1800 guys senior to his original date of hire over here on the gold tie side? This has got ugly written all over it, and would go over like a turd in a punchbowl with NJA pilots.

Archie, didn't you say you were a newhire?

Why are you concerned about what hypothetically, will happen in a few years?

How about let the pitbulls we elected to represent us, sort it out.
They have much more information and experience than we do.
I'm sure they have a plan that will treat everyone fairly.

One prediction that will come true, is that our representatives will not be influenced by what is posted on an anonymous messageboard.

How about a prediction that we all become one strong group of pilots?

IMO I doubt any captain will lose their seat at NJI.
From what I hear, the folks at NJI treat the NJA folks with upmost respect and are warmly welcomed by them.

How about we offer them the same respect and not try to engage in flame threads.

 

[RNObased]

The earliest any integration could possibly take place is late 2009.

And yes, they will still be Captains IF there is ever an integration because the training costs alone will require a fence of existing position.

Meanwhile, the first NJA pilots under the LOU are on the property, from all reports having a blast, and will fly from the right seat until at least their first recurrent (6 months). Upon completion of the NJI upgrade process (per NJI FOM), the NJA Captains will be released as PIC. When flying with another Captain, date of upgrade in the Gulfstream will determine who is PIC.

Last I heard, Gulfstream F/O is going pretty junior (around 1800). So come on over, get a valuable type, and have a good time.

So Gutshot, You are telling me that if someone got hired this summer as a G whiz FO, they will be in the left seat in less then 3 years??

Are you losing that many pilots??? Or are you guys getting that many jets??? Seem like a short time in the right seat at NJI.

I'm not talking about NJA going over there, I'm talking about a guy walking in the door at NJI.

 

[gutshotdraw]

So Gutshot, You are telling me that if someone got hired this summer as a G whiz FO, they will be in the left seat in less then 3 years??

In a word, yes.

Upgrade time had stretched to as long as 4.5 years and has now shrunk back to almost exactly 2 years. NJI will take delivery of three more aircraft this year, as many as six more next year (good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise), and we have a couple dozen Captains well into their 60's and more than a handful in their 70's. Some of them have announced their intentions to retire in the next year or two.

Anyone hired since November will be slowed down on upgrade a little bit because of the NJA LOU Captains. Every time an aircraft is delivered, 4 Captains are promoted. Any F/O on property prior to the LOU will upgrade on that schedule (60% PIC / 40% SIC) and the NJA Captains will be considered "extra" staffing. The ratios will probably stretch to about 70% / 30%. Post LOU street hires will have their upgrade slowed down to bring that ratio back to 60-40.

As for time line: Petition filed November 2008. Legal blah blah back and forth. Presidential election and maybe new NMB board. Delay delay. Decision summer 2009 (in my opinion, union loses). Appeal appeal. New section six negotiations. Delay delay. Foot drag foot drag. Well into 2010 now.

JPPT- After the seat lock, an NJA pilot may return to an NJA fleet if they choose and the LOU specifically says they continue to accrue seniority within NJA while flying at NJI. Yes, they are subject to NJI's FOM regarding operations, overtime, vacation, sick days, holidays, and the like while at NJI.

I haven't flown with any of the four yet but I hear they are enjoying themselves, have been warmly welcomed, and are glad to be at NJI.

Hopefully that will continue to be the case as this little drama plays itself out.

 

[CastofThousands]

Hopefully that will continue to be the case as this little drama plays itself out.

I concur with that sentiment. I hope to see NetJets Inc. (NJA, NJI, EJM, & NJE) pilots treat one another with professional courtesy while the powers to be work the issues.

One thing is certain, it won't be worked out overnight - this will take years.


Respectfully,

 

[Archie Bunker]

Archie, didn't you say you were a newhire?

Why are you concerned about what hypothetically, will happen in a few years?

Yes, I am a new-hire....how is that relevant to this discussion? Your above quoted text comes across to me as arrogant and condescending. In your infinite wisdom, because I'm a new-hire, I'm not supposed to have an opinion?

I am concerned about this situation because it may affect my seniority some time in the future at NetJets. Is that a good enough reason for you?

How about let the pitbulls we elected to represent us, sort it out. They have much more information and experience than we do.
I'm sure they have a plan that will treat everyone fairly.

I wasn't aware that I was hindering our elected representatives from doing their jobs. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure that they will continue to do a fine job, regardless of what "Archie" posts here.

One prediction that will come true, is that our representatives will not be influenced by what is posted on an anonymous messageboard.

Well, there ya go. Am I off the hook now?

How about we offer them the same respect and not try to engage in flame threads.

I was having a civil discussion with Gutshot....there was no flaming (intended, given, or received). We were exchanging OPINIONS concerning a hypothetical situation that may or may not happen at OUR company in a few years. If there is a difference of opinion, I have no problem with that. In fact, I like reading the different scenarios/opinions expressed here, and I don't take it personally if I don't happen to agree with one person's scenario. The fact remains that nobody knows with 100% certainty what will happen to the two seniority lists in a couple of years. At this point, it's all conjecture. My opinion is just as valid as the next guy's opinion, and vice versa.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I was having a civil discussion with Gutshot....there was no flaming (intended, given, or received). We were exchanging OPINIONS concerning a hypothetical situation that may or may not happen at OUR company in a few years. If there is a difference of opinion, I have no problem with that. In fact, I like reading the different scenarios/opinions expressed here, and I don't take it personally if I don't happen to agree with one person's scenario. The fact remains that nobody knows with 100% certainty what will happen to the two seniority lists in a couple of years. At this point, it's all conjecture. My opinion is just as valid as the next guy's opinion, and vice versa.

Archie, no flame intended, given, or received on this end either. I've always tried to keep the posts informative, hopefully humorous now and then, and perhaps thought provoking. Your posts are much the same. I also like to read where NJA guys are at in the dialogue as well.

I also think this discussion is important for a new hire like yourself since the NJI F/O positions have been going fairly junior (around 1800 according to a friend thinking about the bid). Any information on NJI working conditions and relevant sections of the LOU might help someone make a decision on bidding the slot.