Nji

[Archie Bunker]

Anybody who gets hired at NJI off the street this year or even next year will be a Captain on the G-Whiz long before any possible integration.

Very interesting.

So....any predictions as to what will happen to a NJA pilot that slides over to NJI next week? You're saying that he will be a Capt on the G-IV long before any integration of seniority lists take place?

Let's say 3 years from now the seniority lists are combined.....and this NJA turned NJI pilot has an original date of hire in...say....2003. You think that he will remain a G-IV Capt when there are 1800 guys senior to his original date of hire over here on the gold tie side? This has got ugly written all over it, and would go over like a turd in a punchbowl with NJA pilots.

Nothing personal, but I think your example of a pilot hired off the street at NJI in 2007 remaining a G-IV Capt after an integration of seniority lists (if it happens) is pure fantasy. Is that what you were implying, or did I misunderstand you?

 

[gutshotdraw]

No, you didn't misunderstand and it is no fantasy.

NJA pilots coming over to NJI under the letter of understanding are covered by the NJA CBA and 1108 seniority. If they come over as First Officers, they will remain so until their 1108 seniority will allow them to bid an NJI Captain slot under the LOU or they choose to bid an NJA slot on another fleet after the expiration of their seat lock. Meanwhile, the guy hired off the street in their class at NJI will be a Gulfstream Captain 24-36 months from now.

The earliest any integration could possibly take place is late 2009.

And yes, they will still be Captains IF there is ever an integration because the training costs alone will require a fence of existing position.

Meanwhile, the first NJA pilots under the LOU are on the property, from all reports having a blast, and will fly from the right seat until at least their first recurrent (6 months). Upon completion of the NJI upgrade process (per NJI FOM), the NJA Captains will be released as PIC. When flying with another Captain, date of upgrade in the Gulfstream will determine who is PIC.

Last I heard, Gulfstream F/O is going pretty junior (around 1800). So come on over, get a valuable type, and have a good time.

 

[AA717driver]

Seat Grab Alert!!!

They just can't hide their true feelings... TC

 

[jppt2000]

No, you didn't misunderstand and it is no fantasy.

NJA pilots coming over to NJI under the letter of understanding are covered by the NJA CBA and 1108 seniority. If they come over as First Officers, they will remain so until their 1108 seniority will allow them to bid an NJI Captain slot under the LOU or they choose to bid an NJA slot on another fleet after the expiration of their seat lock. Meanwhile, the guy hired off the street in their class at NJI will be a Gulfstream Captain 24-36 months from now.

Where did you get this info? The folks that go over to NJI are placed on inactive status with the union. They live under the same rules as everyone else at NJI does, for now. They start over with vacation accrual, and no more sick day balance to name a few things.

I remember vividly listening to more than a few NJI crews using the same logic around the same time the G200's were introduced. It's a Gulfstream, it's gotta come to NJI.


IMHO, either NJI gets sold off, or an integration occurs where everyone feels they got taken advantage of. I believe someone on here said that's a sign of a equitable integration, where everyone feels equally mistreated.

 

[jppt2000]

Very interesting.

So....any predictions as to what will happen to a NJA pilot that slides over to NJI next week? You're saying that he will be a Capt on the G-IV long before any integration of seniority lists take place?

Let's say 3 years from now the seniority lists are combined.....and this NJA turned NJI pilot has an original date of hire in...say....2003. You think that he will remain a G-IV Capt when there are 1800 guys senior to his original date of hire over here on the gold tie side? This has got ugly written all over it, and would go over like a turd in a punchbowl with NJA pilots.

Archie, didn't you say you were a newhire?

Why are you concerned about what hypothetically, will happen in a few years?

How about let the pitbulls we elected to represent us, sort it out.
They have much more information and experience than we do.
I'm sure they have a plan that will treat everyone fairly.

One prediction that will come true, is that our representatives will not be influenced by what is posted on an anonymous messageboard.

How about a prediction that we all become one strong group of pilots?

IMO I doubt any captain will lose their seat at NJI.
From what I hear, the folks at NJI treat the NJA folks with upmost respect and are warmly welcomed by them.

How about we offer them the same respect and not try to engage in flame threads.

 

[RNObased]

The earliest any integration could possibly take place is late 2009.

And yes, they will still be Captains IF there is ever an integration because the training costs alone will require a fence of existing position.

Meanwhile, the first NJA pilots under the LOU are on the property, from all reports having a blast, and will fly from the right seat until at least their first recurrent (6 months). Upon completion of the NJI upgrade process (per NJI FOM), the NJA Captains will be released as PIC. When flying with another Captain, date of upgrade in the Gulfstream will determine who is PIC.

Last I heard, Gulfstream F/O is going pretty junior (around 1800). So come on over, get a valuable type, and have a good time.

So Gutshot, You are telling me that if someone got hired this summer as a G whiz FO, they will be in the left seat in less then 3 years??

Are you losing that many pilots??? Or are you guys getting that many jets??? Seem like a short time in the right seat at NJI.

I'm not talking about NJA going over there, I'm talking about a guy walking in the door at NJI.

 

[gutshotdraw]

So Gutshot, You are telling me that if someone got hired this summer as a G whiz FO, they will be in the left seat in less then 3 years??

In a word, yes.

Upgrade time had stretched to as long as 4.5 years and has now shrunk back to almost exactly 2 years. NJI will take delivery of three more aircraft this year, as many as six more next year (good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise), and we have a couple dozen Captains well into their 60's and more than a handful in their 70's. Some of them have announced their intentions to retire in the next year or two.

Anyone hired since November will be slowed down on upgrade a little bit because of the NJA LOU Captains. Every time an aircraft is delivered, 4 Captains are promoted. Any F/O on property prior to the LOU will upgrade on that schedule (60% PIC / 40% SIC) and the NJA Captains will be considered "extra" staffing. The ratios will probably stretch to about 70% / 30%. Post LOU street hires will have their upgrade slowed down to bring that ratio back to 60-40.

As for time line: Petition filed November 2008. Legal blah blah back and forth. Presidential election and maybe new NMB board. Delay delay. Decision summer 2009 (in my opinion, union loses). Appeal appeal. New section six negotiations. Delay delay. Foot drag foot drag. Well into 2010 now.

JPPT- After the seat lock, an NJA pilot may return to an NJA fleet if they choose and the LOU specifically says they continue to accrue seniority within NJA while flying at NJI. Yes, they are subject to NJI's FOM regarding operations, overtime, vacation, sick days, holidays, and the like while at NJI.

I haven't flown with any of the four yet but I hear they are enjoying themselves, have been warmly welcomed, and are glad to be at NJI.

Hopefully that will continue to be the case as this little drama plays itself out.

 

[CastofThousands]

Hopefully that will continue to be the case as this little drama plays itself out.

I concur with that sentiment. I hope to see NetJets Inc. (NJA, NJI, EJM, & NJE) pilots treat one another with professional courtesy while the powers to be work the issues.

One thing is certain, it won't be worked out overnight - this will take years.


Respectfully,

 

[Archie Bunker]

Archie, didn't you say you were a newhire?

Why are you concerned about what hypothetically, will happen in a few years?

Yes, I am a new-hire....how is that relevant to this discussion? Your above quoted text comes across to me as arrogant and condescending. In your infinite wisdom, because I'm a new-hire, I'm not supposed to have an opinion?

I am concerned about this situation because it may affect my seniority some time in the future at NetJets. Is that a good enough reason for you?

How about let the pitbulls we elected to represent us, sort it out. They have much more information and experience than we do.
I'm sure they have a plan that will treat everyone fairly.

I wasn't aware that I was hindering our elected representatives from doing their jobs. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure that they will continue to do a fine job, regardless of what "Archie" posts here.

One prediction that will come true, is that our representatives will not be influenced by what is posted on an anonymous messageboard.

Well, there ya go. Am I off the hook now?

How about we offer them the same respect and not try to engage in flame threads.

I was having a civil discussion with Gutshot....there was no flaming (intended, given, or received). We were exchanging OPINIONS concerning a hypothetical situation that may or may not happen at OUR company in a few years. If there is a difference of opinion, I have no problem with that. In fact, I like reading the different scenarios/opinions expressed here, and I don't take it personally if I don't happen to agree with one person's scenario. The fact remains that nobody knows with 100% certainty what will happen to the two seniority lists in a couple of years. At this point, it's all conjecture. My opinion is just as valid as the next guy's opinion, and vice versa.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I was having a civil discussion with Gutshot....there was no flaming (intended, given, or received). We were exchanging OPINIONS concerning a hypothetical situation that may or may not happen at OUR company in a few years. If there is a difference of opinion, I have no problem with that. In fact, I like reading the different scenarios/opinions expressed here, and I don't take it personally if I don't happen to agree with one person's scenario. The fact remains that nobody knows with 100% certainty what will happen to the two seniority lists in a couple of years. At this point, it's all conjecture. My opinion is just as valid as the next guy's opinion, and vice versa.

Archie, no flame intended, given, or received on this end either. I've always tried to keep the posts informative, hopefully humorous now and then, and perhaps thought provoking. Your posts are much the same. I also like to read where NJA guys are at in the dialogue as well.

I also think this discussion is important for a new hire like yourself since the NJI F/O positions have been going fairly junior (around 1800 according to a friend thinking about the bid). Any information on NJI working conditions and relevant sections of the LOU might help someone make a decision on bidding the slot.

 

[jppt2000]

I am concerned about this situation because it may affect my seniority some time in the future at NetJets. Is that a good enough reason for you?


I apologize Archie, not trying to be arrogant or condescending.
I should have known you read the CBA before you came to NJA.
I should have known you took the time to understand the impact of the CBA with NJI and you didn't get an answer from valid sources such as a steward or P2P rep. Getting information from anonymous sources on the internet is much better .


I wasn't aware that I was hindering our elected representatives from doing their jobs. I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm pretty sure that they will continue to do a fine job, regardless of what "Archie" posts here.

Never said you were a hindrance to them.

Well, there ya go. Am I off the hook now?

Never said you were on the hook.

My opinion is just as valid as the next guy's opinion, and vice versa.

Preaching to the choir Archie.

 

[Ultra Grump]

jppt - Try using the quote function when quoting someone, or at least use quotation marks (" "). It makes what you're writing much easier to read.

 

[Archie Bunker]

I apologize Archie, not trying to be arrogant or condescending.
I should have known you read the CBA before you came to NJA.
I should have known you took the time to understand the impact of the CBA with NJI and you didn't get an answer from valid sources such as a steward or P2P rep. Getting information from anonymous sources on the internet is much better .

There you go again....you really like sarcasm, don't you?

Tell me.....what "answers" am I going to get from a P2P rep or an 1108 steward concerning the issue of single carrier status, and the integration of seniority lists?? Let me take a guess....."we will pursue all legal remedies to ensure that single carrier status is achieved in late 2008.....we will also fight to ensure an equitable merging of our seniority lists.....beyond that, we're not prepared to comment." Not exactly the in-depth answer I was hoping for from my union. Or how about: "That's almost 3 years from now, we really don't know what will happen". At least that is honest, and to the point....but again, not the answer or explanation that I seek.

Either way, I don't think that soliciting opinions on these message boards as to what might happen to the seniority list at NJA is harmful. Maybe you consider Gutshot an "anonymous" internet source, but I believe that he is a line pilot at NJI with valid opinions, and interesting input on the subject at hand.

BTW, the "quote" function on these message boards is your friend.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Spot on, Archie.

 

[jppt2000]

There you go again....you really like sarcasm, don't you?

Either way, I don't think that soliciting opinions on these message boards as to what might happen to the seniority list at NJA is harmful. Maybe you consider Gutshot an "anonymous" internet source, but I believe that he is a line pilot at NJI with valid opinions, and interesting input on the subject at hand.

BTW, the "quote" function on these message boards is your friend.

I went from condescending and arrogant to sarcastic.

Never meant to be either of the first two.

I am amazed at how passionate you are about protecting your seniority integration rights being so new. If that's condescending and arrogant, then , I apologize.

 

[Ultra Grump]

It doesn't matter how new someone is. If he's at NJA he's got a stake in the outcome, and therefore has a right to be passionate about it.

 

[Archie Bunker]

It doesn't matter how new someone is. If he's at NJA he's got a stake in the outcome, and therefore has a right to be passionate about it.

Thanks Grump. I don't understand why jppt2000 is having such a hard time understanding this point.

 

[jppt2000]

Archie says:
It doesn't matter how new someone is. If he's at NJA he's got a stake in the outcome, and therefore has a right to be passionate about it.

Jppt2000 says:
Where did I say you don't have a right to be passionate about about seniority rights?
I tried to say you'll get better information, although it's not what you want to hear, from your union leadership.
If posting about hypothetical situations, which you and I have at best anecdotal information, makes you feel better, all the best.

And paraphrasing Cast of 1000's:
I hope to see NetJets Inc. (NJA, NJI, EJM, & NJE) pilots treat one another with professional courtesy while the powers to be work the issues.

One thing is certain, it won't be worked out overnight - this will take years.


Respectfully,

 

[Archie Bunker]

Archie says:
It doesn't matter how new someone is. If he's at NJA he's got a stake in the outcome, and therefore has a right to be passionate about it.

jppt,

You really need to learn how to use the quote function on these message boards. You've quoted me as stating the above text, when it was actually Ultra Grump that said it. It's really not that tough.

Where did I say you don't have a right to be passionate about about seniority rights?
I tried to say you'll get better information, although it's not what you want to hear, from your union leadership.

The tone of your original post suggested that since I was a "newguy," I shouldn't worry myself with things like seniority integration, and such....at least that's how I interpreted your words. Your subsequent sarcastic post seemed to confirm my interpretation. Am I missing something here?

As for getting better information from my union reps......how do you know I haven't already asked someone at 1108 about this very issue, and got the "it's too early, we don't know" answer?

Since you're a big advocate of consulting with our P2P reps and union stewards, why don't you share with us the cutting edge news they told you concerning this subject (besides the "it's too early, we don't know" response).

Thanks, and have a nice day.

 

[Fozzy]

(besides the "it's too early, we don't know" response).

Maybe it is because it is to early. Damn Archie, take a pill and enjoy a year or two some well deserved R & R. The fight will resume. Don't worry about that.