NJI and NJA Merger Official

[RNObased]

I feel sorry that those hired at NJI with the expectation of making Capt on a Gulfstream will not reach their expectations.

Maybe it is time for them to adjust their expectations??? That is like saying you feel sorry for eveyone that has had their aviation dreams dashed by the continued upheaval in the airlines. You can't fix it for everyone and make everyting better. Aviation is a crap shoot, is the long and short of this.

When I started this flying for a living gig, I was kind of looking forward to being a 747 capt., flying 12 days a month. Things change, adapt or don't it is their choice. If they are too good to captain a X or a Falcon that is their issue, not yours.

 

[Cavpilot]

Your use of the number 3 is not a way to win friends or influence people.

I have had the opportunity to fly with people that I didn't particularly like, only to find out later that they were scabs. It all fit in with their behavior during the tour. Crossing a picket line is merely a manifestation of a character flaw. This thread is not about scabs though.

An inhouse NetJets Pilot Union is not a matter of if but when. This same discussion came up 3 years ago when we gave Local 284 the boot. When it does come about, I'll bet those flying the Gulfsteams will be represented in the leadership.

 

[Diesel]

Some of the interesting things are that nja pilots that come over will now be in a 5 year Gulfstream lock with a 2 year equipment lock. Those are substantial locks.

This will change a lot of pilots minds from coming over if they are even within 4 years of a chance to upgrade.

Then the minimums still apply though of 5000hrs but I think the 2 years with the company is gone. I can't remember.

 

[gutshotdraw]

GSD,

Well I have fought with you many times and agreeded with you many times on this web site. However, I have to say that is one of the most well put together and thoughtful interpretations of the LOA and hell the IBB that I have yet seen.

I just have one statement and a question for you.

The quote from you above I believe is correct, however the people who helped write it are several pay grades above the people you mention.

My question is this, why if CMH took over operations would you bail??? Are they that screwed up?? Or what is the issue, I seriously would like to know. I have heard that you guys have some good mangers down there, is this true also??

RNO, we never fought. Just agreed to disagree

The people I mentioned are the highest pay grade on our side of the house and they were out of the loop. Given the enormous potential impact of the LOA, I would have thought they would be included.

As to CMH, I think any of the crossovers will tell you that, in general, we enjoy a better QOL on the road because of a far more cooperative atmosphere between the operations center and the crew members (do you agree Diesel?). We can call and actually speak to a scheduler about problems, potential problems, solutions, or suggestions and usually agree on a plan that benefits the client, the company, and the crew. Back when CMH was running our show it was "talk to the hand: shut up and fly the jet." I would really have to consider my options before going back to such a poisonous relationship. We have many great people in Okatie and RTS has said specifically that they will stay where they are, doing what they're doing regardless of the pilots' representation situation. Like the rest, time will tell if that holds true.

 

[FLYLOW22]

These posts are among the best I have seen in a long time! However, has anyone thought about the fact that what is being discussed here is forcing NJI pilots to join a union when they do not want to? Force is an ugly word. Having asked that, the tone of this thread has been very collegial, which is very much appreciated by us NJI folks.

Nah. You don't have to join the Union (pay dues). Of course, there is a service fee to pay instead then. If I were going to pay the service fee (which is equal to dues) I would want the full representational power of the Union working for me... for one of those rainy days.

 

[FLYLOW22]

All they want are numbers and money, to support the truckers and ground support people, The airline side of the Teamsters is such a small piece of the pie, they couldn't care less about NJA pilots. ...:laugh:

Haha. Funny you should mention this.

NJA pilots (IBT 1108) is the 3rd largest dues producing unit in the division. Having said that, I think IBT is too stupid to figure out what they will lose if/when we walk till we're gone.

IBT has been an ends to a means and a means to an end.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I feel sorry that those hired at NJI with the expectation of making Capt on a Gulfstream will not reach their expectations. WGFP48

It's funny how these "career expectations" get worked out.

In another life, I was forecast (be retirements) to upgrade to Captain after 6 years, be on the Intl Widebody fleet as a Captain for the last 11 years of my career. I was supposed to retire #1 after 3 yeaqrs in that position. It was a beautiful thing to dream about.

The fact is, expectations are a wish, a dream, a might be. I feel far more secure here (NJA) than at that 121 dream job (nightmare) in my former life.

Expectations are real in this business after they occur.

I am sure that if this integration went before an arbitrator, his view of "career expecations" might shock and awe all of us into depression.

Just ask the US Airways guys.

D.O.H. is fair. We will all have stable, predictable jobs based on system seniority. I'll take stable and secure anyday over pipe dreams.

 

[FLYLOW22]

When it does come about, I'll bet those flying the Gulfsteams will be represented in the leadership.

They had better step up for elected positions! I am hoping for it!

The more the merrier.

 

[Diesel]

As to CMH, I think any of the crossovers will tell you that, in general, we enjoy a better QOL on the road because of a far more cooperative atmosphere between the operations center and the crew members (do you agree Diesel?). We can call and actually speak to a scheduler about problems, potential problems, solutions, or suggestions and usually agree on a plan that benefits the client, the company, and the crew. Back when CMH was running our show it was "talk to the hand: shut up and fly the jet." I would really have to consider my options before going back to such a poisonous relationship.

Yup. Not saying there is bad people in CMH just that there is no mutual respect for scheduling at CMH. That respect is earned and developed. NJI and schedulers in Okatie have a very good balance. I still can't believe that I talk to them. But I've been able to work out every issue with them directly. So i see their point and they see mine.

 

[RNObased]

RNO, we never fought. Just agreed to disagree

The people I mentioned are the highest pay grade on our side of the house and they were out of the loop. Given the enormous potential impact of the LOA, I would have thought they would be included.

As to CMH, I think any of the crossovers will tell you that, in general, we enjoy a better QOL on the road because of a far more cooperative atmosphere between the operations center and the crew members (do you agree Diesel?). We can call and actually speak to a scheduler about problems, potential problems, solutions, or suggestions and usually agree on a plan that benefits the client, the company, and the crew. Back when CMH was running our show it was "talk to the hand: shut up and fly the jet." I would really have to consider my options before going back to such a poisonous relationship. We have many great people in Okatie and RTS has said specifically that they will stay where they are, doing what they're doing regardless of the pilots' representation situation. Like the rest, time will tell if that holds true.

Fair enough it was agreeing to disagree, I can live with that.

I have said this before this LOA thing is a way for RTS to save face in the grand scheme of things. Right or wrong, that is the word on the street.

I truely wish that we were still able to speak with a scheduler sometimes, now we have a Air Boss or something like that, all kind of crazy actually. But you are correct with our scheduling, respect is earned, not given just because you have a title. I believe it starts at the top in CMH, I just about had the VP of Scheduling and etc, stroke out on me in recurrent when asking him questions about the new schedules. Very defensive. Afterward all of us got a good laugh out it though.

 

[hunkerdown]

My 2cents says that if the NJA boys send the truckers packing, there should be no reason why a in-house group(union)would not go over BIG with the NJI group

Hey DD
I am curious as to if this is really an option. I am not familiar with union stuff, but how easy is it for NJA to vote them out and start an in house union? I was told that it takes a majority vote to get a union in, but 100% vote to remove them.....kinda like a mother-in-law coming to stay with you because your wife said it was so, but she isn't leaving until you both kick her out.

 

[netjetwife]

I can't imagine that a handful of workers could stop the plans of a majority. That doesn't seem fair, but I wouldn't be surprised if a two-thirds majority was required. I'm sure those interested will do the research and follow all of the rules if de-certification of the Teamsters is supported by the NJA pilots. A long period free of labor strife would be good timing for the establishment of an in-house union.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Can someone please post the pay scales for NJA cross overs in G aircraft after this LOA goes into effect? (if you tell me to hit the search button FlyLow I'm kicking your *ss)

I must apologize, I've been preoccupied with other things to much to focus on this never ending topic. But I think GSD and I share the same view... for the most part.

Devil is in the details... and only time will tell how things will or will not workout.

 

[x402]

Hey DD
I am curious as to if this is really an option. I am not familiar with union stuff, but how easy is it for NJA to vote them out and start an in house union? I was told that it takes a majority vote to get a union in, but 100% vote to remove them.....kinda like a mother-in-law coming to stay with you because your wife said it was so, but she isn't leaving until you both kick her out.

A little history lesson might be in order, when the SU group took over from the old Fab 5, the IBT got on the wagon. Part of the SU platform was, out of 284 and/or the IBT if necessary.
The international got on board, but they had and have their own agenda.
The 2005 CBA set the merger in motion and it appears the 2007 TA has all but sealed the integration of NJA and NJI.
So, it really doesn't matter what the status of the IBT is in the future with regard to the integration will proceed as laid out in the recent LOA.
Can we live without the IBT, yes and we would be in better financial shape without them going forward.
First things first. Let's see how the IBB vote goes on 11-20.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

One other quick note to add. If our operation system is shut down (Okatie that is) and we have to deal with CMH... This double rated G pilot will most likely look for other employment.

This statement has nothing to do with unions or NJA pilots, and everything to do with our operations people. They are far far superior to CMH, most were hand picked and plucked from that side anyway... they are a pleasure to work with, and that better never change.

We have schedulers with MA's in Aviation Management (of course they are working their way up the ladder)! Our daily contact with the company is completely different than that of the A side operation. No airport standby, no hanging out at the FBO's, no middle man, etc etc.

 

[CA1900]

Wolf -- it'd be an integration, which is a two-way street. With that in mind, it'd be nice to see that aspect of NJI's culture spread over to this side, not vice-versa!

 

[x402]

One other quick note to add. If our operation system is shut down (Okatie that is) and we have to deal with CMH... This double rated G pilot will most likely look for other employment.

This statement has nothing to do with unions or NJA pilots, and everything to do with our operations people. They are far far superior to CMH, most were hand picked and plucked from that side anyway... they are a pleasure to work with, and that better never change.

We have schedulers with MA's in Aviation Management (of course they are working their way up the ladder)! Our daily contact with the company is completely different than that of the A side operation. No airport standby, no hanging out at the FBO's, no middle man, etc etc.

I'm sure that our senior guys lament the days when they could call the schedulers and chat, it's a growth and numbers game. Hell, even when I showed up, 7 years ago, a pizza delivery went a long way.
Times change and flight manager in CMH is an entry level position.

 

[Mountain Troll]

Just a quick reminder, NJA pilots were promised that NJI was going to be part of their group many years ago. NJI pilots were promised that there would NEVER be a union on property or that NJI would NEVER fold into NJA. NJA pilots were upset about the many empty promises and now, NJI pilots are pissed that they were lied to. The working environment is much more relaxed, responsive and respectful in Okatie than CMH. Would you want to loose that? NJI Management will always take time to listen, offer suggestions and try to help you, not screw you. Would you want to loose that? How often have you been apprehensive about the unknown or undertaking of a big step in your life?

Now, I will respectfully point out the money thing again. First year Capt. At NJI which is about year number 3 or 4 in service is 110K. NJA year 3 pay for over 40,000lb is 93,732. RTS has a goal to get NJA to fly the Gulfstreams cheaper. Don’t ever believe RTS isn’t doing this for gain. Large corporations lie to their stockholders, employees, management and customers. Don’t ever believe that this is a gift or that you or your union earned it. There is any underlying reason. This is a good deal for RTS, with a deal in-place that will lock everyone up for the next 8 years means that a stable labor force is very attractive to any prospective buyers. (speculation not fact)

On a last note, it is impossible to make everyone happy. Not you, me, RTS or the union is going to make everbody peaceful, content or even slightly happy. The deal before us is to the benefit of RTS, but, it also seems to keep all involved thinking it is a good deal for them. No one can guarantee that this deal is going to be great, or how it really is going to effect us and our families. Lets give it a try, if it doesn’t work, lets get in to the catering business for aircraft…….

 

[imacdog]

Now, I will respectfully point out the money thing again. First year Capt. At NJI which is about year number 3 or 4 in service is 110K. NJA year 3 pay for over 40,000lb is 93,732. RTS has a goal to get NJA to fly the Gulfstreams cheaper. Don’t ever believe RTS isn’t doing this for gain.

And the odds of a year-3 NJA pilot flying a Gulfstream as captain would be........

 

[NJApilot]

First year Capt. At NJI which is about year number 3 or 4 in service is 110K. NJA year 3 pay for over 40,000lb is 93,732.

The figure you provide for Year 3/CAPT at NJA is correct. As was somewhat alluded to in a subsequent post, assuming that a merger takes place, YR3 Captain on a Gulfstream is not likely. It would take a period of several years for everything to "shake out" in terms of equipment/seat position, relative to overall seniority. After the initial shake out, the Gulfstream awards will go much senior (stating the obvious I know).

Granted, I do not know what the NJI payscales look like....but my guess is that the NJA wages are less than NJI in the earlier years (say YR 1 to YR 5) then cross in later years (say, YR 10+) -- meaning the NJA pay might be higher than NJI in the later years (when, again, most captains will see a Gulfstream award). Just a wild-*ss guess on my part.

Also worth mentioning, the 18-day fixed schedule at NJA pays $114,025 at YR 3 CAPT (for a/c greater than 40,000 LBS). I'm not sure how (or if) this figure compares to a similar reserve schedule at NJI. YEAR 10 CAPT (18-D) pays $145,072. YEAR 17 CAPT (18-D) pays $187,260.