NJI and NJA Merger Official

[Hogprint]

What say you Gutshot, Wolfpack?

What is the feeling down SC way? Did this take anyone by surprise, or has the writing been on the wall?

Just wondering. I haven't seen any NJI'ers post here and this threads been here a few days.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

What say you Wolfpack?

At this point I don't think my opinion matters much.

 

[Mountain Troll]

OK, so now my question is since all the F.O.s are going to come from NJA, the time line for the crossovers to initiate and control a vote of bringing the union in is about three years, why would 1108 spend any money on the single carrier lawsuit? The difference of lawsuit filed in Fall of 2008 verses infusion of NJA pilots to reach a majority will be about a year difference. Is that worth the money spent?

 

[notaNJApilot]

maybe the single carrier is the only way to force NJI to unionize. (just an uneducated guess)

 

[gutshotdraw]

What say you Gutshot, Wolfpack?

What is the feeling down SC way? Did this take anyone by surprise, or has the writing been on the wall?

Just wondering. I haven't seen any NJI'ers post here and this threads been here a few days.

Been out making the donuts and don't drag a laptop with me. Still digesting though....burp....I'll get back to ya

 

[CE750Driver]

Guys, the merger is complete. Eventually, there will only be NJA FOs to upgrade. When the fleet about doubles, and there are more NJA pilots, than original NJI guys, how do you think a union vote will go?

The merger is complete, what isn't is the timetable. And I would guess that will be before 2010. Your company bought insurance that the NMB wasnt going to staple you at the bottom of the list. The price is that all FO positions are filled by NJA. Thus your company will, at some point in the future, be entirely NJA.

 

[Dirty Dingus]

Any of you NJI guys think, you would be more receptive to going over to NJA, (without a fight) if they had their own in-house group(union)? I can see this being modeled after SWA. In other words send the truck drivers packing.

 

[Dirty Dingus]

Hey Gut, You and Wolf fly the G for NJI?

 

[notaNJApilot]

hey if NJA has an in-house Union, they'll be able to lower the dues since that money isn't going to IBT. haha

 

[x402]

Any of you NJI guys think, you would be more receptive to going over to NJA, (without a fight) if they had their own in-house group(union)? I can see this being modeled after SWA. In other words send the truck drivers packing.

Why do you care? The handwriting is on the wall. Both groups will have to deal with it, good and bad.

Go back and read so of the other posts, you'll see who WP and GSD work for.

 

[hunkerdown]

Here is some info that may help clear things up.
Why the Nov 2008 deadline? RTS is waiting for the '08 elections. Bottom line is that if the Republicans retain office, an NMB review stands a chance....If the Democrats get in (we all know who SHE will be) then the NMB would most likely be a union supported vote. Thus the LOA gives RTS the right to at any time say "OK, we are one company, no need for a common carrier lawsuit". The wording in the LOA protects current NJI G seats. It will be a minimum of 2.5 years before any of the current NJA crossovers can bid a G5 slot, and after that they will slowly trickle into the G5 fleet at a rate of 1/3 at first, and then in Nov 2012, the majority if not all will be NJA pilots. The G4 fleet will eventually diminish and be replaced entirely by G450 aircraft, but at current usage that could be up words of 10 to 15 years down the road....Plenty of time for a new contract or two.
NJI will retain its 135 Certificate in S. Carolina, a "right to work" state, meaning that a union cannot force itself on an employee. Voting NJI into the union when more than 50% pilots are there is not an option either. NJA crews come over under NJI work rules, with union representation, mediation, and protection, but can not just vote to absorb NJI. That would take a new contract. RTS is trying to run the current contract to 6 or more years without having to re-work it ever 3 years

Benefits for NJI:
Just a few of the benefits that will trickle down to NJI along with the seat protection are first and foremost, the current salary for a Gulfstream Captain is considerably higher than the new TA Captain pay. NJI crews should be seeing a change in overtime pay policy to match NJA and word is that holiday and hourly pay are just around the corner.

 

[NJApilot]

NJI will retain its 135 Certificate in S. Carolina, a "right to work" state, meaning that a union cannot force itself on an employee. Voting NJI into the union when more than 50% pilots are there is not an option either.

...the current salary for a Gulfstream Captain is considerably higher than the new TA Captain pay.

In an effort to understand what you're saying (regarding SC being a "right to work" state): assuming that the the single-carrier lawsuit is filed by 1108 and is adjudicated, is it your opinion that the NMB will rule against single-carrier status given SC's nature as a "right to work" state?

Also, concerning your statement regarding current captain salaries at NJI, my sources may be wrong or I may have misunderstood, but I've been lead to believe that this is not the case -- that, rather, only a small minority of captains at NJI are making more than the compensation provided for in the recent TA. I believe that our (NJA) union leadership has been provided up-to-date NJI W2 information to support this position. Having not seen this data with my own two eyes, I will submit that I may be wrong.

In the end - and this is in no way directed at you personally - it is my hope that over the coming months the pilots of NJI will undertake an honest measure of due diligence in regard to the NJA TA and associated NJI LOA. My belief is that many (certainly not all) of those that do so will be pleasantly surprised with what they see in these documents. Analyzing this as a personal "business decision" is also beneficial - at least it has been for me in recent years.

I also want to point out that a very large degree of consideration - both professional and personal - has been given to the NJI pilots by the NJA union leadership throughout the negotiations of this LOA, in particular. I hope that this, too, will not go unnoticed by the NJI pilots.

Personally, I happen to believe that a merger of the two pilot groups benefits both sides in very, very large ways -- and for the record, this is not because I wish to fly a GIV or GV (I have zero interest in doing so - I've been in the Ultra for 6 years and wish to stay here for as long as they let me). I simply believe that a merger would, first and foremost, be a smart business decision for our company. Secondarily, it would also benefit BOTH pilot groups in numerous ways, and as a result, further the pilot profession as a whole (as our 2005 CBA has clearly done).

 

[hunkerdown]

NJApilot - The "right to work state" issue is just a guess on my part. Too many factors can change things. If NJI moved headquarters to CMH, then yes, all would have to be in the union. If NJI/NJA were recognized as one, but with let's say different work rules and the 135 certificate stayed in SC, then I believe U.S. law would prevent the union from forcing anybody to join provided they were employed by the SC NetJets. I really don't know if the "right to work" rule would have an effect on the NMB as far as a decision.

I base the salary statement on 7/7 schedule and 5-7 years Captain pay. It could be higher or lower depending on length of time here. I think it would be great to see those high level 4 salaries stick around and transition over to NJI pay.....more money is always nice.

The NJA pilots that have come over so far (99 out of 100) have been fantastic. Professional, courteous, team players, I can't say enough. I'm sure that others to follow will join with the same upbeat attitude. I look forward to working with all.

My post here is generally to help answer some of the questions and concerns of the NJI pilots. I know much information has been dropped on us over the past few weeks and it can be mind boggling as well as stomach turning.

IMO, I think RTS has given, and taken to make a better total system for all. Not all will agree with everything. Naturally if it was that easy, none of this would be an issue. I truly hope the TA if ratified is a good deal for all.

 

[netjetwife]

NJApilot and HD, I believe there is far more common ground than there are differences among the two groups, and that both I and A pilots want the same thing-- job security, professional compensation and a career they enjoy. HD, I'm not surprised that you have liked almost all the NJA pilots new to NJI. I anticipate the NJI pilots will be likewise welcomed and respected.

I agree that the IBB proposal will be a good deal for all; I see that as part of the master plan. The concept of one contract, one company is far easier to implement when the contract is good for all involved. When NJA/I pilots have mentally accepted the idea of integration (as the two of you have)--even before the physical steps are taken--It bodes well for the future.

 

[G4dude]

These posts are among the best I have seen in a long time! However, has anyone thought about the fact that what is being discussed here is forcing NJI pilots to join a union when they do not want to? Force is an ugly word. Having asked that, the tone of this thread has been very collegial, which is very much appreciated by us NJI folks.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Okay. I have read and re-read the IBB TA. I have read and re-read the LOA. I have read and re-read the many e-mails from NJI management and RTS. And I have talked with many of our crewmembers and even a few NJA crews. Here are my conclusions:

1. The eventual integration of NJA and NJI seniority lists is now all but a foregone conclusion. 750 is correct that the LOA was written to protect NJI pilots but it also buys RTS time to see where the political and economic winds are blowing before he makes an irrevocable decision. I have posted many times that I believe it will be late '09 or early '10 before this issue is definitively settled and I stand by that prediction.

2. The LOA does a pretty decent job of protecting NJI pilots. NJI F/O's hired prior to the 2005 CBA will make PIC as they were promised. The junior guys hired since the CBA won't do as well and I feel for them but they knew (or should have known) about the crossover agreement when they were hired and that this was a possibility and made their decision accordingly. Date of hire is the only fair way to integrate since the primary single-carrier argument has always been that we work for the same company. Fortunately, the 1108 leadership and the vast majority of 1108 pilots I have talked to agree.

3. I think the company is being foolish by waiting until next November to fill new NJI F/O slots with 1108 transfers. If this is going to happen anyway, let's get on with it starting January 1. NJI will hire 15 or so "off the street" F/O's next year. How many do you think will stick around long-term once they get on the line and discover they will NEVER make PIC in a Gulfstream? Happy trails to a half million in training dollars.

4. RTS has re-stated that, no matter the outcome of the single-carrier issue, NJI will remain a separate operation with its own scheduling, dispatch, uniforms, etc. The pilot group may be represented by the same union and CBA as NJA but NJI will maintain a separate identity. I'm 50-50 on whether this will be the case but I hope so. The idea of CMH controlling the operation again will send more pilots packing than the idea of joining a union, yours truly included.

As to a few points raise earlier, as I understand it, right to work laws can't influence the outcome of a single-carrier petition but do prevent a person from being forced to join a union. Regardless, if the shop becomes unionized, an "administration fee" equal to dues can be collected from the employee for collective bargaining services.

Hog, we have been told that our President and the Bradley Boss had no idea this was coming and did not participate in the writing of the LOA. Based on an e-mail exchange I had, I believe that.

This is a long bumpy road and although I think I know where the map says we're going, I can't see around the next hill to know for sure.

Back to making the donuts.....

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Hey Gut, You and Wolf fly the G for NJI?

Thats correct.

 

[Diesel]

No not just a G.... a GV

 

[gutshotdraw]

Haven't touched one yet Diesel, just the 450.

BTW, woo-hoo 3-0. Tito and company chilling the bubbly.......

 

[Diesel]

Yeah i stayed up way past my bed time to watch it on slingbox.

Of course the only thing they have here is cricket. 700 to 3 on day 4 of a game. WTF.

One more game and its riot time in the city.

 

[YankeeEcho]

Okay. I have read and re-read the IBB TA. I have read and re-read the LOA. I have read and re-read the many e-mails from NJI management and RTS. And I have talked with many of our crewmembers and even a few NJA crews. Here are my conclusions:

As to a few points raise earlier, as I understand it, right to work laws can't influence the outcome of a single-carrier petition but do prevent a person from being forced to join a union. Regardless, if the shop becomes unionized, an "administration fee" equal to dues can be collected from the employee for collective bargaining services.
s.....

Gut . . . I'm still analyzing the whole thing as you are - and agree with most of what you have concluded - BUT as I read the right-to-work stuff, it is not only based on where you 'live' (not where the company is located) but the 'airline' industry (anything governed by the railway act) is exempt from right-to-work laws. That removes the option to be a non-member-member of the union.

I continue to be very disturbed by the power of the union rhetoric on both the company and popular perspective - it is so flawed.

Has anyone thought to ask us what we think?

 

[Cavpilot]

Great post Gutshot. I think you may have a firmer grasp on the LOA than some of our guys. You make some great observations and raise some points that I had not considered.

Date of hire is the only fair way to integrate since the primary single-carrier argument has always been that we work for the same company. Fortunately, the 1108 leadership and the vast majority of 1108 pilots I have talked to agree.

NJA pilots have nothing to fear with "date of hire" integration. It will have absolutely zero impact on our career progression. With this TA, the brass ring has just become >40,000 lb. aircraft. With regards to pay nothing else matters. Since, by default, all NJI guys are in that category of aircraft my place in line for a >40,000 lb. aircraft has not been infringed upon.

3. I think the company is being foolish by waiting until next November to fill new NJI F/O slots with 1108 transfers. If this is going to happen anyway, let's get on with it starting January 1. NJI will hire 15 or so "off the street" F/O's next year. How many do you think will stick around long-term once they get on the line and discover they will NEVER make PIC in a Gulfstream? Happy trails to a half million in training dollars.

Good point. I never considered this.

The idea of CMH controlling the operation again will send more pilots packing than the idea of joining a union, yours truly included.

Can't blame you one bit on this one. We have some real gems in CMH.

I understand that for some NJI guys, there is a true aversion to union membership. I can only think of three reasons why this would be an issue:

1. They have never been a union member before and don't see the need to start now.
2. They have been union members before and the experience left a bad taste in there mouth.
3. They are scabs.

Group 1 and 2 I think would be encouraged and won over once they saw the quality of out leadership and the positive relationship the union has with management. As far as group 3 goes, who cares what they think, they have proven that they can't play well with other anyhow.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Has anyone thought to ask us what we think?

They didn't ask BN or JJ what they thought. Why should they ask, or care, what line pilots think?

 

[Dirty Dingus]

My 2cents says that if the NJA boys send the truckers packing, there should be no reason why a in-house group(union)would not go over BIG with the NJI group!!!! I think no one wants to be associated with those, (for lack of a better term) crooks!!!! All they want are numbers and money, to support the truckers and ground support people, The airline side of the Teamsters is such a small piece of the pie, they couldn't care less about NJA pilots. My guess is, if that is put on the table, watch what happens on the NJI side of the house. You better not be standing in the doorway, YOU may just get trampled...:laugh:

 

[NJApilot]

Gutshotdraw:

Thanks for the response and for the perspective from an "NJI" point-of-view. I agree with much of what you say in your analysis of the situation. I hope that the constructive dialog can continue.

 

[NJApilot]

My 2cents says that if the NJA boys send the truckers packing, there should be no reason why a in-house group(union)would not go over BIG with the NJI group!!!!

I agree -- an in-house union would probably be easier for the NJI pilots to accept and embrace. Eventually giving them a seat at the head table (on the Exec Board / MEC) will help even more.

After reading a few of the other posts in this thread from this morning, I find it worth pointing out that some of our NJI brothers feel that their voice is not being heard by the company. Hmmmm....

 

[RNObased]

Hog, we have been told that our President and the Bradley Boss had no idea this was coming and did not participate in the writing of the LOA. Based on an e-mail exchange I had, I believe that.

This is a long bumpy road and although I think I know where the map says we're going, I can't see around the next hill to know for sure.

Back to making the donuts.....

GSD,

Well I have fought with you many times and agreeded with you many times on this web site. However, I have to say that is one of the most well put together and thoughtful interpretations of the LOA and hell the IBB that I have yet seen.

I just have one statement and a question for you.

The quote from you above I believe is correct, however the people who helped write it are several pay grades above the people you mention.

My question is this, why if CMH took over operations would you bail??? Are they that screwed up?? Or what is the issue, I seriously would like to know. I have heard that you guys have some good mangers down there, is this true also??

 

[WGFP48]

I understand that for some NJI guys, there is a true aversion to union membership. I can only think of three reasons why this would be an issue:

1. They have never been a union member before and don't see the need to start now.
2. They have been union members before and the experience left a bad taste in there mouth.
3. They are scabs.

Group 1 and 2 I think would be encouraged and won ovI er once they saw the quality of out leadership and the positive relationship the union has with management. As far as group 3 goes, who cares what they think, they have proven that they can't play well with other anyhow.[/quote]

Your use of the number 3 is not a way to win friends or influence people. I fall into the number 2 category. I lost most of my retirement from an airline job thanks to a union. Today if we integrate the seniority lists, I will end up with a number well under 200 in seniority. So what ever happens here will not affect me in any manner. I won't be taking a pay cut. And I will continue to live at home with my HBA. I feel sorry that those hired at NJI with the expectation of making Capt on a Gulfstream will not reach their expectations. I for one do not see any need for unionization, either in-house or "in bed with thugs".

I do think it's very interesting how few NJI guys have posted on this thread...I am like many others still digesting what has happened and how it will affect me.

WGFP48

 

[Dirty Dingus]

WGFP, Great post, But if the union goes to NJI, which it looks like its going to happen, In-house would be MUCH BETTER, than dealing with, as you put it "The THUGS" Don't you think????

 

[YankeeEcho]

I do think it's very interesting how few NJI guys have posted on this thread...I am like many others still digesting what has happened and how it will affect me.

WGFP48

Standby. . . . . . . .