NJA TA...What's your bet?

[netjetwife]

I've noticed that senior pilots complaining about getting left out in the IBB proposal usually fail to mention the $25,000 signing bonus, $10,000 longevity bonus, and the 4% annual bonuses. That is on top of excellent benefits. Many pilots would be quite happy to trade places and would consider themselves lucky to be so "ignored"...

 

[NJA Capt]

I've noticed that senior pilots complaining about getting left out in the IBB proposal usually fail to mention the $25,000 signing bonus, $10,000 longevity bonus, and the 4% annual bonuses.

Let's see: For the duration of the contract, a 12 Year 7/7 Captain will see an additional $15K (with a pay cut for the last 4 years. A newhire FO will see an additional $158K. I'll let you rethink that bonus money idea.

The senior guys aren't blinded by the neon lights of the pay and the domiciles. They are looking beyond those things at the "bigger picture" if you will. Some of us aren't in the 14+ range yet, but we will be when the end of the contract rolls around. $25k isn't going far to offset the loss of retiree medical and the dozens of other givebacks.

You have to ask yourself if the pay and the bases were not part of the equation, would you still vote to approve it? I doubt it. Remember, one day the junior guys will be the senior guys. The benefits we give up will be your own.

Less than 78% turnout
Less than 65% if it passes

 

[hopalong]

I bet at least 75% pass.

 

[T-1GUY]

Think of this TA as a catch up for the FO's. It would seem some greedy falcon pilots left us out in the cold during the 2005 CBA. If I here one more guy bitch about how he got left out in the cold while he is making $150K plus easy I will scream. I know.. I know.. we didn't walk the line in 2005 in the snow up hill both ways... Give me a Fu**ing break with your whining....

 

[Diesel]

Give me a Fu**ing break with your whining....

Then T-1 Give us a break with your bitching about having to commute to your domicle and the pay.... Both of which you knew about BEFORE coming here.

The rules didn't change on you. You just don't like the rules.

100 percent pass if NJW had her way.

62 to 68% pass is my over under.

 

[T-1GUY]

Nevermind..

 

[Dr Pepper]

I'll bet that all but 4 Falcon PICs vote no. Some will brainwash 1 or 2 Falcon SICs to vote their way. The majority of the rest of the FOs will vote yes, another me vote, because they cannot afford not too. The real vote will be decided by the rest of the pilot group. Reserve PICs might do more fence sitting and lean towards no. My guess is a low passing margin of 57% yeah, 40% neigh, 3% no vote.

Does anyone know why the timeline says on or about 20 Nov? Why is the date not definitive?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Hey Falcon guy..... Im with you, its a no vote for me...just waaay to many givebacks to the company. the noobies scored really big and the rest of us get the crumbs. Most of us realize they need it but at our big time expense????

I've never been accused of being hasty or stupid. I just don't see the give backs.

For my sake.... please list the many givebacks for me to review.

I just don't see the overall loss. Help me help you help me...

 

[Fozzy]

and the dozens of other givebacks.

Lets hear them. Give me 13.
Edit. You said dozens. Give me 24.

 

[ce750drvr]

Then T-1 Give us a break with your bitching about having to commute to your domicle and the pay.... Both of which you knew about BEFORE coming here.

The rules didn't change on you. You just don't like the rules.

100 percent pass if NJW had her way.

62 to 68% pass is my over under.

Agreed. If I hear one more guy bitch about the commute or pay, I'm gonna f*ckin break somebody. I drove 6.5 hours one way for 5 years and started out at $27,108. But I knew what I was getting into and dealt with it. BO said himself that we should discuss it with our family and vote what is best for us. Therefore making it a "I" vote. So that is what I'm going to do. I'm going to vote what is best for ME AND MY FAMILY. "I", "ME", not anyone else. I'm tired of being frowned upon for not being a "team player" or what is best for the group. Bite me, what is best for "you" might not be best for "me"

 

[hopalong]

Agreed. If I hear one more guy bitch about the commute or pay, I'm gonna f*ckin break somebody. I drove 6.5 hours one way for 5 years and started out at $27,108. But I knew what I was getting into and dealt with it. BO said himself that we should discuss it with our family and vote what is best for us. Therefore making it a "I" vote. So that is what I'm going to do. I'm going to vote what is best for ME AND MY FAMILY. "I", "ME", not anyone else. I'm tired of being frowned upon for not being a "team player" or what is best for the group. Bite me, what is best for "you" might not be best for "me"

I am the first one to agree that seniority has privelages and not once have I compained about the commute or pay. Let me ask all of you this. When do us newbees earn, yes I said EARN the right to have a voice???? Is it 1 year, 2 years, 3, 4 when???? I'm guessing NEVER because we weren't here to fight the fight with you. Don't get me wrong. It is greatly appreciated and I extend my thanks to those that had the guts to stand up and fight. If I was working at NJA at the time I'd be fighting right alongside you. But man, the more I read the more I think
that some, NOT ALL of the pre-rats have a superiority complex. I try to be respectful as I can but it is disappointing to know how soon some of you may have forgotten what it was like when you started. How quickly one forgets.
It seems that all this condescending patroninzing is getting on OUR nerves. Most of you guys have the same stock answer, "Now, you go be good little ugly red headed stepchhildren locked in the basement and we'll let you know when you can come on up and get something to eat you little post-rat. Afterall you knew whatchy'all got yourselves into!" (banjo playing deliverence in the background)

 

[gunfyter]

Actually, if you point out anything you don't like in the TA... those are the people told to shut up and sit in the corner... with a dunce cap on.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Actually, if you point out anything you don't like in the TA... those are the people told to shut up and sit in the corner... with a dunce cap on.

No gun. I think those with "grave concern" ove the TA are painfully silent when asked to discuss (or even list) their reasons for voting no.

A vote is important and should be made after sound reasearch (including talking to the people who negotiated the document), reflection and thought.

I hear many no voters voting no because "they heard" this or they try to connect the dots themselves and come up short.

A CBA is written by lawyers to be interpreted by lawyers and those who interpret the law. Pilots are a second thought. We get caught in the middle.

I have YET to hear REAL concrete information that proves this TA is worthy of a NO. For the record, I started, by default, as a no until I learned enoug about the document to warrant a yes.

That did not occur for me until I read the document twice, highlighted every question I had and then called 3 of the folks that negotiated the TA to find out the rest of the story.

 

[fly4funcrj]

Maybe it's not about the commute. Maybe it's about the fact that we are stuck at a domicile until the company allows us to switch to another. The commute sux, most of you guys have done it and know what it entails. I bet most of you bitched as well about the commute. None of you though had to watch your fellow pilot airline HOME while you airlined to a DUMBICILE just because.
Lets get past the commute bs and look at the difference in rules. So many domicile guys here have commuted longer then most nja guys have worked at nja.
What I do like to hear is the fact that there have been some very avid NO voters who have ACTUALLY read the document and have since reconsidered their vote. Some will still vote no, sure, but others have been able to filter out the bs they hear or read online.
Maybe if everyone stopped posting bs on the board and read the document from cover to cover, there would be less misinformation.

 

[netjetwife]

....
Does anyone know why the timeline says on or about 20 Nov? Why is the date not definitive?

Teamsters has strict rules which govern the voting process. I believe one of them (going from memory) is the amount of days that the group has had to study the proposal. So the date is dependent upon the actual mailing date the document was sent out. Leadership has a plan and tries to follow it but saying "on or about" allows them some room in the schedule. The date set for counting votes is also determined by the rules. NJW

 

[gunfyter]

See 22,

I never said I was voting no. All I did was complain about the loss of the Reserve schedule ... but told to shut up and bid the 18 day fixed... here's your dunce cap.

Just because I point out things I don't like does not mean I am against bases for domicilees and raises for FOs.

 

[acaTerry]

Not happy about losing the H days. The current reserve schedule is great and I hate to see it go.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Not happy about losing the H days. The current reserve schedule is great and I hate to see it go.

True BUT... the new payscale is nicer than the old one too.

Give n take.

Win-win.

IBB.

 

[gunfyter]

Imagine how nice it would be if it were a 27 day Fixed schedule!

I believe any schedule that works more than the 7&7 should pay all days worked beyond the 7&7 at an Extended days rate. Its overtime. ie 34 extended days per year for the 18 day schedule

 

[TheTruthCMH]

See 22,

I never said I was voting no. All I did was complain about the loss of the Reserve schedule ... but told to shut up and bid the 18 day fixed... here's your dunce cap.

Just because I point out things I don't like does not mean I am against bases for domicilees and raises for FOs.

Too much.

Probably going to have to vote no.

Now that's funny.

 

[gunfyter]

Now that's funny.

Probably going to have to does not equal definitely voting no.


I will be surprised to see too many people bid the new 18 day schedule. I kinda like to see it flop.

 

[netjetwife]

....100 percent pass if NJW had her way. 62 to 68% pass is my over under.

I don't recall asking you to be my spokesman, Diesel... but thanks for pointing out that I hadn't posted my guesstimate yet... While 100% agreement would be an amazing show of cohesion in a group so large, it is totally unrealistic. Therefore my optimistic, but possible, guess is low 80s. I think that in the end most will realize that the proposal does a good job --overall--of moving the pilot group forward and pulling FO wages up to a decent salary.

Those who complain that the FOs and/or post-rats are "whining" made very similar posts during the pre CBA contract battle. At that time it was called standing up for one's self, and for the frac industry in general. Those pilots who didn't demand better were told that they have no self-worth. Now a new group of NJ FOs are advocating a change for the very same reasons and should be commended according to the prevailing logic during the contract battle.

Working to raise sub par wages is the right thing to -- irrespective of when the fight takes place. Apparently, the EBoard, the MEC and the Union Training Committee Chairman all agree, judging by their unanimous endorsements of the IBB proposal. Many in that group worked on the present CBA. Obviously they understand the Union's objectives and have experience working with management to strike a bargain the pilots will find acceptable. Given their track record, an endorsement will carry lots of clout--at least 80% one would think.

 

[its me]

I think the highest percentage I've seen so far is 82% which is very optomistic, not willing to look back to see if it's correct. The sad part of all this is, according to the wilson research survey, 92% liked the contract as is.

 

[netjetwife]

Liking the contract "as is" was in comparison to what it previously had been, not what it possibly could be.

 

[its me]

netjetwife,

I've been a lurker on this board for the better part of 9 years under different names. I've watched and learned but this issue has me concerned, much more than our previous fight after the fab 5 left us high and dry. "what could possibly be", seems a bit risky when we're only 2 years into a 5 year contract and it appears we are already giving back. Granted, I've never been given a peek at the big picture but I would certainly give a little bit for just a glimpse. I know there's something brewing, I just hate voting on something not knowing what it is. It seems there are some behind the door deals being made. Just my opinion.

 

[netjetwife]

The idea of "giving back" is subjective and so is the perception of risk. Those involved with IBB report that positive progress was made--on the whole. It's not realistic that the pilots would get everything their own way in IBB. One has to compromise unless the other side has no interests at all. Knowing that was not the case, it looks like the final deal was quite fair.

I think the big picture changes frequently so you'd need more than a glimpse to stay current... Many just make educated guesses and even those who are in charge of drawing the big picture have to deal with their own share of uncertainties. After all, the final outcome won't be known until the last ballot has been counted. To my way of thinking, that makes every NJ pilot a part of the picture--a mosaic if you will.

I understand your concern is higher now. Last time the pilots voted there was a common "enemy", but this time the pilots are pitted against each other as different interest groups compete for their ideal of the better contract. A bit unsettling for sure.

As to speculation about behind the door deals, I find the idea of it intriguing and promising. Those following along have heard talk/rumors that some of the NJ pilots may want to leave Teamsters and that there could be an integration with NJI sooner, rather than later. I don't see either possibility as a negative event. In trying to connect the dots, speculated swaps (if true) can help explain much of the IBB proposal, especially the duration. I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that IF deals were made then that means that both sides had achieved a new level of trust and cooperation not previously obtained. Surely that bodes well for all NJA employees.

I think the NJ pilots should trust their SU leaders (who haven't disappointed them so far) and give positive reinforcement to a process that seeks fair solutions arrived at respectfully and in a reasonable time frame. A vote of confidence now will help to establish a new way of doing business that benefits all involved. In my opinion, by far the greater risk would be in turning your back on those (from both sides) who have gone to considerable effort to increase the job security and bring improvements to the overall pilot group you're a member of. Best of luck with your decision making process, IM.
Netjetwife

 

[Archie Bunker]

I am the first one to agree that seniority has privelages and not once have I compained about the commute or pay. Let me ask all of you this. When do us newbees earn, yes I said EARN the right to have a voice???? Is it 1 year, 2 years, 3, 4 when???? I'm guessing NEVER because we weren't here to fight the fight with you. Don't get me wrong. It is greatly appreciated and I extend my thanks to those that had the guts to stand up and fight. If I was working at NJA at the time I'd be fighting right alongside you. But man, the more I read the more I think
that some, NOT ALL of the pre-rats have a superiority complex. I try to be respectful as I can but it is disappointing to know how soon some of you may have forgotten what it was like when you started. How quickly one forgets.
It seems that all this condescending patroninzing is getting on OUR nerves. Most of you guys have the same stock answer, "Now, you go be good little ugly red headed stepchhildren locked in the basement and we'll let you know when you can come on up and get something to eat you little post-rat. Afterall you knew whatchy'all got yourselves into!" (banjo playing deliverence in the background)

Great post Hoppy! It's about time you guys got paid a decent wage, and were able to have the same home basing options as the more senior pilots there. Good luck with your vote.

 

[FL450]

I"m a 14 year class 4 guy and I have to be honest when I say I"m just not feelin the love.

Our leadership going into this IBB stated and RE-stated how important it was to secure higher, more competitve salaries for first officers and the most senior captains. The first officers scored big.

The 14 year+ guys were not just overlooked, we were sacrificed. I understand business and demographics, but understandably this feels like a really hard punch to the gut considering how long we long haulers have been waiting for this job to "pay off". My no vote really won't matter much considering the large amount of people this proposal will benefit. The hardest thing for me right now is trying to figure out how I explain to my family that "daddy isn't going to make the money he thought he was in the 2005 contract". I guess I shouldnt have bought the big house and put my kids in private school when this 5 year contract turned into a 2 year contract. I appreciate the hard work of all involved, I'm just really dissapointed.

Most senior pilots are not in a Class IV. No openings in that Class any time soon. When they finally get to bid it, starting salary would end up being 120K as they would start in year 1 and not be able to hold the Reserve. So the longer you're here and NOT in a Class IV, the worse it gets. Not so good for most.

 

[acaTerry]

True BUT... the new payscale is nicer than the old one too.

Give n take.

Win-win.

IBB.

Yeah, but would just giving us even 2 H days have hurt anything? I don't think so. I mean come on, the 8 day tour was enough of a win for them in itself.

 

[CA1900]

I believe once the Preferential Bid System gets built and brought on-line, you'll get the benefits of H-days plus a whole lot more. (The ability to strategically place H-day pairs so as to work fewer than 18 days will go away, yes. But you'll still be able to bid around days you want off.)