NJA size

[fischman]

As an individual within the threat segment of the seniority list, these yearly quasi threats are falling upon deaf ears. I think it is highly unlikely that additional furlough will transpire at NJA. At this point in time, it is merely a political tool wielded at the pilot group over 1.5c. I understand that they are attempting to dispose of some worn out iron but eventually crews will be needed to staff the training pipeline on incoming fleets in late 2012. It's conceivable that they could furlough, but IMHO it would not serve the company well.

You can believe that if you like. Let's wait and see what happens when management takes the gloves off. They aren't even slapping us yet. Just taunts so far.

I don't like being taunted.

 

[BentOver]

Blueridge hit the nail on the head......

Are we going to go through this every year? Every time management wants something? Timing of sell-offs, 1.5.4, Globals and Phenoms, is all way too coincidental.


Sadly, management thinks that dangling some Phenoms/Globals in front of the pilot group and then threatening to take them away, is going to accomplish anything....... Works at the regionals with a bunch of 20 somethings. Not gonna work at NJA...

 

[LAZYB]

... eventually crews will be needed to staff the training pipeline on incoming fleets in late 2012. It's conceivable that they could furlough, but IMHO it would not serve the company well.

Yeah it seems like they'd have to train for the a/c before they come on property...

Butt who knows how this new genre of fractional management, "trained" by Sokol, will prepare for success. Or not.

 

[rajflyboy]

Loss of overtime was a function of the flying decreasing due to the ecomony. There was no vacation loss; it was either credited to pilots during the bid period change, or was paid out.

$5000 more salary in hotel points than what pilots make now? Puh-lease. Give me cash and I'll determine how to spend it, thanks.

Time to step back into reality, Raj.

This is the exact lies and bullcrap that pissed me off about IBB. What you wrote is a pure lie. Paid out in money does not = a vacation day that someone wants.

This again is pure SHEEP Mentality. Vacation was lost. Some want the time off and don't care about the money. Pilots getting their vacation days back wasn't even considered in IBB >> that happened because of the economy at a later date.

We lost the vacation because of the bid period change. Get the facts straight before you speak.

I don't follow SHEEP!

Pretty obvious we need a proper election real SOON.

 

[rajflyboy]

Some think we are all sheep and will follow the alpha sheep no matter what.

Wake up. Don't let this crap happen anymore.

 

[imacdog]

What I said wasn't a lie. It is what happened.

 

[realityman]

PIC's basically took a pay cut if you consider overtime and then add in vacation that was lost.

you apparently have no clue how many credit card points we used to collect? I'm guessing easily $5000 bucks more per year than a pilot is getting now.

Well, I'm a PIC who has been with the company since '97. I am on the 7/7 schedule. Have always been. And I can tell you that even with the loss of O/T (which, by the way, is a result of reduced flying, NOT anything in the IBB. How on earth did you reach THAT conclusion?!), I'm still making more than prior to IBB.

I guess we have to be careful what we wish for. Since I've been with this company, all I've heard is pilots screaming that scheduling needed to be more efficient. They used to send you out well before 0800 on day 1 just because they could, not because they actually NEEDED you out that early. Lots of extra coin in our pockets because of that. Now, I rarely go out early on day 1, and the schedule seems to work just fine for them, but it does remove that extra money form my pocket. They also used to bring you on very early in the rest of the tour just because, and you'd frequently go over 12 hours, even if they didn't really need you, which resulted in more O/T for us. Now they are watching it much more closely and I find myself mysteriously working right up to 12 hours, but not often beyond it.

We can make fun of scheduling all we want, but they HAVE become more efficient, and now we don't like it because it took O/T away from us. But I fail to see how that's related to IBB.

Everyone got a pay raise with IBB, and although I realize no one really saw it coming, we would NEVER have gotten (yes, I feel secure with this statement) if we had to negotiate in this economic environment, and especially with this/Sokol management team.

Yes, the contract could be extended. Is that really such a bad thing given the current economic environment? Not having to worry about paying for medical is worth quite a bit to me alone!

Greatly expanded basing for all! Seriously, your biggest concern is with AMEX points? By the way, how did you arrive at a loss of $5K in credit card benefits? Have you ever done the math on ANY of those benefits programs? Typically, the benefit is equivalent to 1% of the purchases. So a loss of $5K in benefits means we somehow lost $500,000 in purchases? What the heck are you buying at home?! Even if you're talking about the value of things in rewards programs, typically the credit card companies value their stuff at maximum retail value, when often you can find the same stuff for less money at most stores. Ask me how I know this. So they inflate prices to provide less value for your rewards points.

Anyway, no way would I trade the other gains made in IBB for some credit card benefits. Thank goodness you aren't on our negotiating committee!

There are so many other benefits to the IBB it's hard to list them all!

Yes, there are some problems with it too. I have no problem admitting that. I guess the REAL question is, can you point to ANY contract that could be said to be perfect? We will NEVER have a CBA that will make every single pilot happy simultaneously.

You may not like the IBB, and that's great. You have your reasons. So do some others. Each to his own. I understand. What I don't understand is how you figure we'd actually be better off right now if we had passed on it.

One thing I do know is that it was voted in by a vast majority, and while I read a lot of hyperbole from a few folks who are disgruntled with it, it seems most do not have 'buyer's remorse' about it. We can all ( I do it myself) pick out sections that need improvement, but to take that as an endorsement that most folks are dissatisfied with the document as a whole, or that the document as a whole is bad, is a big stretch.

I read the IBB before the vote. The whole thing, not just section 27. I even pointed out a few things that I didn't like. And I can tell you that at least for me, I'm doing much better than if we had passed on it. Most of the SIC's I fly with seem happy with it. There is a little more discontent among the captains with it, but not in any significant numbers.

Okay, we know you don't like it. Now enlighten us on how you think we'd be better off if we had voted no on it. This I gotta hear. And don't color it with colors that don't exist. In other words, don't tell me we could've gotten bigger raises if we had held out without telling me HOW we could have gotten those raises. Remember, it was a cooperative effort, We weren't in section 6, so we had very little leverage. The company wanted something, we wanted something. We worked PEACEABLY to reach an agreement. So, Raj, how would we be better if we had voted no, and what methods could we have used to get it?

 

[Helmsalee]

Very well thought out and written, rman. Too bad that we don't see more posts like that here. If we did maybe the posters would actually have a chance to change some minds. I interviewed before IBB but was hired after it passed, so I did not vote on it. I must admit that it was great to be hired for a much better job than the one applied for.
Helm

 

[LAZYB]

realityman, well said. Have a nice Thanksgiving. Helmsalee too.

 

[G4dude]

Well, I'm a PIC who has been with the company since '97. I am on the 7/7 schedule. Have always been. And I can tell you that even with the loss of O/T (which, by the way, is a result of reduced flying, NOT anything in the IBB. How on earth did you reach THAT conclusion?!), I'm still making more than prior to IBB.

I guess we have to be careful what we wish for. Since I've been with this company, all I've heard is pilots screaming that scheduling needed to be more efficient. They used to send you out well before 0800 on day 1 just because they could, not because they actually NEEDED you out that early. Lots of extra coin in our pockets because of that. Now, I rarely go out early on day 1, and the schedule seems to work just fine for them, but it does remove that extra money form my pocket. They also used to bring you on very early in the rest of the tour just because, and you'd frequently go over 12 hours, even if they didn't really need you, which resulted in more O/T for us. Now they are watching it much more closely and I find myself mysteriously working right up to 12 hours, but not often beyond it.

We can make fun of scheduling all we want, but they HAVE become more efficient, and now we don't like it because it took O/T away from us. But I fail to see how that's related to I

Everyone got a pay raise with IBB, and although I realize no one really saw it coming, we would NEVER have gotten (yes, I feel secure with this statement) if we had to negotiate in this economic environment, and especially with this/Sokol management team.

Yes, the contract could be extended. Is that really such a bad thing given the current economic environment? Not having to worry about paying for medical is worth quite a bit to me alone!

Greatly expanded basing for all! Seriously, your biggest concern is with AMEX points? By the way, how did you arrive at a loss of $5K in credit card benefits? Have you ever done the math on ANY of those benefits programs? Typically, the benefit is equivalent to 1% of the purchases. So a loss of $5K in benefits means we somehow lost $500,000 in purchases? What the heck are you buying at home?! Even if you're talking about the value of things in rewards programs, typically the credit card companies value their stuff at maximum retail value, when often you can find the same stuff for less money at most stores. Ask me how I know this. So they inflate prices to provide less value for your rewards points.

Anyway, no way would I trade the other gains made in IBB for some credit card benefits. Thank goodness you aren't on our negotiating committee!

There are so many other benefits to the IBB it's hard to list them all!

Yes, there are some problems with it too. I have no problem admitting that. I guess the REAL question is, can you point to ANY contract that could be said to be perfect? We will NEVER have a CBA that will make every single pilot happy simultaneously.

You may not like the IBB, and that's great. You have your reasons. So do some others. Each to his own. I understand. What I don't understand is how you figure we'd actually be better off right now if we had passed on it.

One thing I do know is that it was voted in by a vast majority, and while I read a lot of hyperbole from a few folks who are disgruntled with it, it seems most do not have 'buyer's remorse' about it. We can all ( I do it myself) pick out sections that need improvement, but to take that as an endorsement that most folks are dissatisfied with the document as a whole, or that the document as a whole is bad, is a big stretch.

I read the IBB before the vote. The whole thing, not just section 27. I even pointed out a few things that I didn't like. And I can tell you that at least for me, I'm doing much better than if we had passed on it. Most of the SIC's I fly with seem happy with it. There is a little more discontent among the captains with it, but not in any significant numbers.

Okay, we know you don't like it. Now enlighten us on how you think we'd be better off if we had voted no on it. This I gotta hear. And don't color it with colors that don't exist. In other words, don't tell me we could've gotten bigger raises if we had held out without telling me HOW we could have gotten those raises. Remember, it was a cooperative effort, We weren't in section 6, so we had very little leverage. The company wanted something, we wanted something. We worked PEACEABLY to reach an agreement. So, Raj, how would we be better if we had voted no, and what methods could we have used to get it?

What he said. Great post.

 

[rajflyboy]

I love it. Come on here and lie to argue the points you make.

Great!

 

[realityman]

I love it. Come on here and lie to argue the points you make.

Great!

Not sure what you're talking about. Are you referencing my post? If so, everything I posted can be verified with a little research. The exception being what I make. Sorry, not going to post my W2 for your edification.

But you can compare 14th year captain pay now vs. what it was pre-IBB. If you don't believe me then nothing I say will convince you. Best I can do is give you my word that I wasn't making anywhere near the difference in pay with O/T than what my pay is now. I stand by my claim that I make more now without the O/T than I did with it pre-IBB. But as already mentioned, IBB had nothing to do with the loss of O/T.

People are not happy with various sections of the IBB. As a whole, most are glad we have it. Same as you, I have no way of providing a scientific poll to prove my point. Just my interactions with other pilots. Not sure how that would qualify as a lie.

Anyway, if you weren't referencing my post, please accept my apologies and disregard this whole thing. If you were, make your points, don't throw out accusations or call names. PROVE where I am lieing.

 

[imacdog]

If Raj had his way you guys would still be under the pre-2005 contract.

 

[realityman]

Oh, it doesn't bother me. Nothing he or I says on here makes any difference in the world anyway. This is FI after all. Good entertainment (sometimes), nothing more.

Just thought it interesting for him to call me (or whoever) a liar, but offers up no intelligent rebuttal. Just name calling. The very last paragraph of my long post asked some direct questions of him. Will be interesting to see how/if he answers any of them.

 

[BentOver]

offers up no intelligent rebuttal. Just name calling.

Ahhh here is where you went wrong... Raj and intelligent cannot be used in the same sentence when it comes to IBB....:beer:

 

[rajflyboy]

Ahhh here is where you went wrong... Raj and intelligent cannot be used in the same sentence when it comes to IBB....:beer:

People who say we lost no vacation and no credit card points and say the G wiz merger was great are simply not telling the facts. Why even argue with people who won't deal in the facts.

 

[realityman]

People who say we lost no vacation and no credit card points and say the G wiz merger was great are simply not telling the facts. Why even argue with people who won't deal in the facts.

Raj, you still aren't dealing entirely with facts either. The credit card thing had nothing to do with IBB. Nothing. It was a change made by the company outside of any negotiated contract. Now, if you're mad at the union for not pursuing action more aggressively against the company in regards to the credit card change, then fine. Maybe they should have. But it is NOT related to anything that was negotiated, or negotiated away, in the IBB.

As far as the Gulfstream integration, we're dealing with opinions here. Hard to call someone a 'liar' when expressing a very objective opinion. If I disagree with your opinion about if the integration was fair or not, does that make you a liar? But as far as opinions go, it seems like it was a fair integration. I'm sure you believe it should have been more slanted towards the NJA side, but if you review the history of most aviation integrations and mergers, we pulled ours off with the least amount of hassle and heartburn for everyone. Even some of our smartest folks who haven't been big supporters of our union, have pointed to many examples where if we had tried taking the hard line route (a seniority staple to the bottom for the NJI folks, for example) would have most likely worked out even worse for us if put in the hands of an arbitrator, as it most suredly would have been had we gone that route. Just curious, what about the integration is so awful that you feel it denigrates the entire IBB?

About the lost vacation. I know you'll have a heart attack when I say this, but I agree with you. Some folks DID lose vacation with the IBB. It wasn't right, and I was one of the people saying so at the time. As I said, it's not a perfect document. But what is? The difference between us is, I'm willing to admit it has flaws, but believe when taken as a whole, we benefitted a great deal from it, while you won't even acknowledge there's anything good in it, and seem to believe we're worse off now because of it, and even calling those of us who like it 'sheep' and 'liars'. Sorry, I'm neither a sheep nor a liar. I read the ENTIRE document. I discovered there were some parts I didn't like, but when looking at the ENTIRE document, it was going to be an overall win for the group.

Yes, it's all my personal opinion. Nothing more, and I don't pretend to represent it as anything else. One thing I'm SURE of, if we had passed on the IBB there is no way in hell we'd be doing better now. Just with pay alone, we 'd have been trying to get raises ON TOP OF recouping the money we passed on with the IBB, and doing it while the company was floundering and with a very hostile management team.

 

[BentOver]

If anyones a "sheep" it's the current EMT...

They are following the playbook of a disgraced former executive who was humiliated by Berkshire, had no friends at NJA, and probably was the worst CEO/President I have ever seen.

Why they continue down his path is a mystery we may never know.. Maybe Sokol had special brainwashing powers over other executives??

 

[G4dude]

Raj, you still aren't dealing entirely with facts either. The credit card thing had nothing to do with IBB. Nothing. It was a change made by the company outside of any negotiated contract. Now, if you're mad at the union for not pursuing action more aggressively against the company in regards to the credit card change, then fine. Maybe they should have. But it is NOT related to anything that was negotiated, or negotiated away, in the IBB.

As far as the Gulfstream integration, we're dealing with opinions here. Hard to call someone a 'liar' when expressing a very objective opinion. If I disagree with your opinion about if the integration was fair or not, does that make you a liar? But as far as opinions go, it seems like it was a fair integration. I'm sure you believe it should have been more slanted towards the NJA side, but if you review the history of most aviation integrations and mergers, we pulled ours off with the least amount of hassle and heartburn for everyone. Even some of our smartest folks who haven't been big supporters of our union, have pointed to many examples where if we had tried taking the hard line route (a seniority staple to the bottom for the NJI folks, for example) would have most likely worked out even worse for us if put in the hands of an arbitrator, as it most suredly would have been had we gone that route. Just curious, what about the integration is so awful that you feel it denigrates the entire IBB?

About the lost vacation. I know you'll have a heart attack when I say this, but I agree with you. Some folks DID lose vacation with the IBB. It wasn't right, and I was one of the people saying so at the time. As I said, it's not a perfect document. But what is? The difference between us is, I'm willing to admit it has flaws, but believe when taken as a whole, we benefitted a great deal from it, while you won't even acknowledge there's anything good in it, and seem to believe we're worse off now because of it, and even calling those of us who like it 'sheep' and 'liars'. Sorry, I'm neither a sheep nor a liar. I read the ENTIRE document. I discovered there were some parts I didn't like, but when looking at the ENTIRE document, it was going to be an overall win for the group.

Yes, it's all my personal opinion. Nothing more, and I don't pretend to represent it as anything else. One thing I'm SURE of, if we had passed on the IBB there is no way in hell we'd be doing better now. Just with pay alone, we 'd have been trying to get raises ON TOP OF recouping the money we passed on with the IBB, and doing it while the company was floundering and with a very hostile management team.

I agree with this guy.

 

[rajflyboy]

If anyones a "sheep" it's the current EMT...

They are following the playbook of a disgraced former executive who was humiliated by Berkshire, had no friends at NJA, and probably was the worst CEO/President I have ever seen.

Why they continue down his path is a mystery we may never know.. Maybe Sokol had special brainwashing powers over other executives??

yep yep yep

 

[G4dude]

yep yep yep

What specifically are they doing wrong?

 

[fischman]

What specifically are they doing wrong?

Maybe they should return emails from upset customers...

 

[G4dude]

Maybe they should return emails from upset customers...[/QUOTE

Ya think?

 

[BentOver]

Maybe they should return emails from upset customers...

Besides not selling shares, they also cancelled a/c orders that should be arriving already, giving them more of a chance to sell said shares..

They are also wasting way too much time trying to Union bust. Who knows how much they are paying the "Employee Relations Man"!

They are also spreading their FUD campaign. One day saying things are going good, all is well. The next they are spreading rumors of furloughs.. To top it off they are tying said furloughs in with scope concessions. I, and many of us, have seen this tactic before. We see right through it.

Management is being deceitful in the way they are trying to get things done. The sad part is, if they would make an attempt to truly work with the Union, and if they would show some actual gains, they would have the cooperation of many many more pilots. (Not breaking the CBA, but they'd have a little more give and take, akin to the "tell me to jump and I'll ask how high".)

Using jobs, furloughed or otherwise, as political pawns, is no way to get things done. Just think, if they would actually do something to precipitate recalls, they'd have 495 or so more cooperative employees. People tend to work with and trust those who provide a non-hostile, productive, environment.

Finally, I'm on my 9th CEO/President over the last 11 years.... And besides Sokol, these guys are the next worst. This includes regional CEO's, mom-and pop operation owners etc...

The absolute worst CEO's/Presidents I have ever seen are the last 2 at Netjets.

It has nothing to do with me being laid off either, that was an economic faultn that occurred 3 YEARS AGO. although Sokol didn't help things there either.

 

[G4dude]

Besides not selling shares, they also cancelled a/c orders that should be arriving already, giving them more of a chance to sell said shares..

They are also wasting way too much time trying to Union bust. Who knows how much they are paying the "Employee Relations Man"!

They are also spreading their FUD campaign. One day saying things are going good, all is well. The next they are spreading rumors of furloughs.. To top it off they are tying said furloughs in with scope concessions. I, and many of us, have seen this tactic before. We see right through it.

Management is being deceitful in the way they are trying to get things done. The sad part is, if they would make an attempt to truly work with the Union, and if they would show some actual gains, they would have the cooperation of many many more pilots. (Not breaking the CBA, but they'd have a little more give and take, akin to the "tell me to jump and I'll ask how high".)

Using jobs, furloughed or otherwise, as political pawns, is no way to get things done. Just think, if they would actually do something to precipitate recalls, they'd have 495 or so more cooperative employees. People tend to work with and trust those who provide a non-hostile, productive, environment.

Finally, I'm on my 9th CEO/President over the last 11 years.... And besides Sokol, these guys are the next worst. This includes regional CEO's, mom-and pop operation owners etc...

The absolute worst CEO's/Presidents I have ever seen are the last 2 at Netjets.

It has nothing to do with me being laid off either, that was an economic faultn that occurred 3 YEARS AGO. although Sokol didn't help things there either.

Thanks for that info, bent. I have a couple of observations. I fly for NJA too, and I have heard of NONE of this. I am not clueless, I work here too, and have for a long time. Are you sure your sources are good? Also, Noe and Eyer ran a VERY good ship at NJI, so questioning their management ability seems a little-questionable- to me, no offence intended. Isn't it possible the problem is Luthi and the union radicals? And I really don't intend to offend anybody here. Except brokeflyer of course.

 

[BentOver]

Thanks for that info, bent. I have a couple of observations. I fly for NJA too, and I have heard of NONE of this. I am not clueless, I work here too, and have for a long time. Are you sure your sources are good? Also, Noe and Eyer ran a VERY good ship at NJI, so questioning their management ability seems a little-questionable- to me, no offence intended. Isn't it possible the problem is Luthi and the union radicals? And I really don't intend to offend anybody here. Except brokeflyer of course.

No offense taken...

As far as sales, I think we can all agree they are missing their targets..... For whatever reason.. I deduce it is because they have no new a/c to sell. Along with reducing passenger care via longer wait times to Owner services, cheapened ammenities. And by far the worst is going from Santulli, to a CEO like Sokol and Hansel. I would bet my right throwing arm that Santulli was much better at customer care... Heck, Hansell hasn't even said a peep to his employees.

As far as FUD.... Not one month after the famous recalls in the next couple of years announcement, hiring by around 2016.... We had a guy come from recurrent and provided a word for word account of how he was basically lambasted with" if you all don't give in to scope concessions, we can't guarantee your job, or that new a/c will arrive.." I would say that is pretty deceiftful, and downright rude bullying....

Something tells me that Eyer wasn't pulling all the strings at NJI... Any improvements or sales came from Santulli's doing and/or word of mouth via NJA customers..... From the looks of it, a monkey could have sold a share at NJA in 2006-2007.... It's like real estate... Every agent looked like the best in 2002-2007...The good ones still remain, the bad are no longer selling....Anybody can lead during the good times...

 

[fischman]

Thanks for that info, bent. I have a couple of observations. I fly for NJA too, and I have heard of NONE of this. I am not clueless, I work here too, and have for a long time. Are you sure your sources are good? Also, Noe and Eyer ran a VERY good ship at NJI, so questioning their management ability seems a little-questionable- to me, no offence intended. Isn't it possible the problem is Luthi and the union radicals? And I really don't intend to offend anybody here. Except brokeflyer of course.

In everyone's own mind there is a perception that is reality. Here is mine.

Luthi and the other "union radicals" were in office before the poop hit the fan. Everything was going great! Noe and Eyer are NOT leaders. They are "yes men" who do whatever the boss at the time says. (Did you get a chance to ask Noe how Santulli got ousted yet?) So what is the variable? What has changed? Sokol and Hansell.

And please try to not take offense to this, but I do think you are ignorant of the history and politics of the company, but I do admire you asking questions and TRYING to get the whole picture instead of the lopsided views in the GLC cockpits.

 

[G4dude]

In everyone's own mind there is a perception that is reality. Here is mine.

Luthi and the other "union radicals" were in office before the poop hit the fan. Everything was going great! Noe and Eyer are NOT leaders. They are "yes men" who do whatever the boss at the time says. (Did you get a chance to ask Noe how Santulli got ousted yet?) So what is the variable? What has changed? Sokol and Hansell.

And please try to not take offense to this, but I do think you are ignorant of the history and politics of the company, but I do admire you asking questions and TRYING to get the whole picture instead of the lopsided views in the GLC cockpits.

But, if I understand correctly, NJI was more profitable than NJA. Doesn't that speak well for Noe and Eyer? I have worked with both of them, and was very impressed. Our ops under NJI were smoother and more efficient, with better customer service and employee morale, even with no union to protect us. I see the same set of facts as y'all do, but come to vastly different conclusions.

 

[G4dude]

No offense taken...

As far as sales, I think we can all agree they are missing their targets..... For whatever reason.. I deduce it is because they have no new a/c to sell. Along with reducing passenger care via longer wait times to Owner services, cheapened ammenities. And by far the worst is going from Santulli, to a CEO like Sokol and Hansel. I would bet my right throwing arm that Santulli was much better at customer care... Heck, Hansell hasn't even said a peep to his employees.

As far as FUD.... Not one month after the famous recalls in the next couple of years announcement, hiring by around 2016.... We had a guy come from recurrent and provided a word for word account of how he was basically lambasted with" if you all don't give in to scope concessions, we can't guarantee your job, or that new a/c will arrive.." I would say that is pretty deceiftful, and downright rude bullying....

Something tells me that Eyer wasn't pulling all the strings at NJI... Any improvements or sales came from Santulli's doing and/or word of mouth via NJA customers..... From the looks of it, a monkey could have sold a share at NJA in 2006-2007.... It's like real estate... Every agent looked like the best in 2002-2007...The good ones still remain, the bad are no longer selling....Anybody can lead during the good times...

Selling shares in this economy is a tough thing. Ordering planes and hoping to sell shares? Suicidal. I have been through recurrents too, and haven't had ANY of the stuff thrown at me that you describe. NOTHING. I work here too, as do my friends at the former NJI, and we don't understand any of this acrimony. Its not that we just disagree on the fixes, we don't even agree about the facts on the ground. NJA is the best run company I ever worked for, except for NJI, and I worked for 23 of them. It is not perfect, nothing in this world is. Which company are y'all comparing NetJets to?

 

[gutshotdraw]

TRYING to get the whole picture instead of the lopsided views in the GLC cockpits.

As compared to the "fair and balanced" views in the gold tie cockpits? Please.

The amount of disinformation, distortion, and obfuscation about NJI's creation, history, operations, pay, upgrade policy, and the like that has been floating around this place for years could fill a library wing at Harvard.

Trying to correct the errors has been like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

As with all things, including the statements from Luthi and Hansell, the truth is somewhere in the MIDDLE and ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder.