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[rajflyboy]

I love it. Come on here and lie to argue the points you make.

Great!

 

[realityman]

I love it. Come on here and lie to argue the points you make.

Great!

Not sure what you're talking about. Are you referencing my post? If so, everything I posted can be verified with a little research. The exception being what I make. Sorry, not going to post my W2 for your edification.

But you can compare 14th year captain pay now vs. what it was pre-IBB. If you don't believe me then nothing I say will convince you. Best I can do is give you my word that I wasn't making anywhere near the difference in pay with O/T than what my pay is now. I stand by my claim that I make more now without the O/T than I did with it pre-IBB. But as already mentioned, IBB had nothing to do with the loss of O/T.

People are not happy with various sections of the IBB. As a whole, most are glad we have it. Same as you, I have no way of providing a scientific poll to prove my point. Just my interactions with other pilots. Not sure how that would qualify as a lie.

Anyway, if you weren't referencing my post, please accept my apologies and disregard this whole thing. If you were, make your points, don't throw out accusations or call names. PROVE where I am lieing.

 

[imacdog]

If Raj had his way you guys would still be under the pre-2005 contract.

 

[realityman]

Oh, it doesn't bother me. Nothing he or I says on here makes any difference in the world anyway. This is FI after all. Good entertainment (sometimes), nothing more.

Just thought it interesting for him to call me (or whoever) a liar, but offers up no intelligent rebuttal. Just name calling. The very last paragraph of my long post asked some direct questions of him. Will be interesting to see how/if he answers any of them.

 

[BentOver]

offers up no intelligent rebuttal. Just name calling.

Ahhh here is where you went wrong... Raj and intelligent cannot be used in the same sentence when it comes to IBB....:beer:

 

[rajflyboy]

Ahhh here is where you went wrong... Raj and intelligent cannot be used in the same sentence when it comes to IBB....:beer:

People who say we lost no vacation and no credit card points and say the G wiz merger was great are simply not telling the facts. Why even argue with people who won't deal in the facts.

 

[realityman]

People who say we lost no vacation and no credit card points and say the G wiz merger was great are simply not telling the facts. Why even argue with people who won't deal in the facts.

Raj, you still aren't dealing entirely with facts either. The credit card thing had nothing to do with IBB. Nothing. It was a change made by the company outside of any negotiated contract. Now, if you're mad at the union for not pursuing action more aggressively against the company in regards to the credit card change, then fine. Maybe they should have. But it is NOT related to anything that was negotiated, or negotiated away, in the IBB.

As far as the Gulfstream integration, we're dealing with opinions here. Hard to call someone a 'liar' when expressing a very objective opinion. If I disagree with your opinion about if the integration was fair or not, does that make you a liar? But as far as opinions go, it seems like it was a fair integration. I'm sure you believe it should have been more slanted towards the NJA side, but if you review the history of most aviation integrations and mergers, we pulled ours off with the least amount of hassle and heartburn for everyone. Even some of our smartest folks who haven't been big supporters of our union, have pointed to many examples where if we had tried taking the hard line route (a seniority staple to the bottom for the NJI folks, for example) would have most likely worked out even worse for us if put in the hands of an arbitrator, as it most suredly would have been had we gone that route. Just curious, what about the integration is so awful that you feel it denigrates the entire IBB?

About the lost vacation. I know you'll have a heart attack when I say this, but I agree with you. Some folks DID lose vacation with the IBB. It wasn't right, and I was one of the people saying so at the time. As I said, it's not a perfect document. But what is? The difference between us is, I'm willing to admit it has flaws, but believe when taken as a whole, we benefitted a great deal from it, while you won't even acknowledge there's anything good in it, and seem to believe we're worse off now because of it, and even calling those of us who like it 'sheep' and 'liars'. Sorry, I'm neither a sheep nor a liar. I read the ENTIRE document. I discovered there were some parts I didn't like, but when looking at the ENTIRE document, it was going to be an overall win for the group.

Yes, it's all my personal opinion. Nothing more, and I don't pretend to represent it as anything else. One thing I'm SURE of, if we had passed on the IBB there is no way in hell we'd be doing better now. Just with pay alone, we 'd have been trying to get raises ON TOP OF recouping the money we passed on with the IBB, and doing it while the company was floundering and with a very hostile management team.

 

[BentOver]

If anyones a "sheep" it's the current EMT...

They are following the playbook of a disgraced former executive who was humiliated by Berkshire, had no friends at NJA, and probably was the worst CEO/President I have ever seen.

Why they continue down his path is a mystery we may never know.. Maybe Sokol had special brainwashing powers over other executives??

 

[G4dude]

Raj, you still aren't dealing entirely with facts either. The credit card thing had nothing to do with IBB. Nothing. It was a change made by the company outside of any negotiated contract. Now, if you're mad at the union for not pursuing action more aggressively against the company in regards to the credit card change, then fine. Maybe they should have. But it is NOT related to anything that was negotiated, or negotiated away, in the IBB.

As far as the Gulfstream integration, we're dealing with opinions here. Hard to call someone a 'liar' when expressing a very objective opinion. If I disagree with your opinion about if the integration was fair or not, does that make you a liar? But as far as opinions go, it seems like it was a fair integration. I'm sure you believe it should have been more slanted towards the NJA side, but if you review the history of most aviation integrations and mergers, we pulled ours off with the least amount of hassle and heartburn for everyone. Even some of our smartest folks who haven't been big supporters of our union, have pointed to many examples where if we had tried taking the hard line route (a seniority staple to the bottom for the NJI folks, for example) would have most likely worked out even worse for us if put in the hands of an arbitrator, as it most suredly would have been had we gone that route. Just curious, what about the integration is so awful that you feel it denigrates the entire IBB?

About the lost vacation. I know you'll have a heart attack when I say this, but I agree with you. Some folks DID lose vacation with the IBB. It wasn't right, and I was one of the people saying so at the time. As I said, it's not a perfect document. But what is? The difference between us is, I'm willing to admit it has flaws, but believe when taken as a whole, we benefitted a great deal from it, while you won't even acknowledge there's anything good in it, and seem to believe we're worse off now because of it, and even calling those of us who like it 'sheep' and 'liars'. Sorry, I'm neither a sheep nor a liar. I read the ENTIRE document. I discovered there were some parts I didn't like, but when looking at the ENTIRE document, it was going to be an overall win for the group.

Yes, it's all my personal opinion. Nothing more, and I don't pretend to represent it as anything else. One thing I'm SURE of, if we had passed on the IBB there is no way in hell we'd be doing better now. Just with pay alone, we 'd have been trying to get raises ON TOP OF recouping the money we passed on with the IBB, and doing it while the company was floundering and with a very hostile management team.

I agree with this guy.

 

[rajflyboy]

If anyones a "sheep" it's the current EMT...

They are following the playbook of a disgraced former executive who was humiliated by Berkshire, had no friends at NJA, and probably was the worst CEO/President I have ever seen.

Why they continue down his path is a mystery we may never know.. Maybe Sokol had special brainwashing powers over other executives??

yep yep yep

 

[G4dude]

yep yep yep

What specifically are they doing wrong?

 

[fischman]

What specifically are they doing wrong?

Maybe they should return emails from upset customers...

 

[G4dude]

Maybe they should return emails from upset customers...[/QUOTE

Ya think?

 

[BentOver]

Maybe they should return emails from upset customers...

Besides not selling shares, they also cancelled a/c orders that should be arriving already, giving them more of a chance to sell said shares..

They are also wasting way too much time trying to Union bust. Who knows how much they are paying the "Employee Relations Man"!

They are also spreading their FUD campaign. One day saying things are going good, all is well. The next they are spreading rumors of furloughs.. To top it off they are tying said furloughs in with scope concessions. I, and many of us, have seen this tactic before. We see right through it.

Management is being deceitful in the way they are trying to get things done. The sad part is, if they would make an attempt to truly work with the Union, and if they would show some actual gains, they would have the cooperation of many many more pilots. (Not breaking the CBA, but they'd have a little more give and take, akin to the "tell me to jump and I'll ask how high".)

Using jobs, furloughed or otherwise, as political pawns, is no way to get things done. Just think, if they would actually do something to precipitate recalls, they'd have 495 or so more cooperative employees. People tend to work with and trust those who provide a non-hostile, productive, environment.

Finally, I'm on my 9th CEO/President over the last 11 years.... And besides Sokol, these guys are the next worst. This includes regional CEO's, mom-and pop operation owners etc...

The absolute worst CEO's/Presidents I have ever seen are the last 2 at Netjets.

It has nothing to do with me being laid off either, that was an economic faultn that occurred 3 YEARS AGO. although Sokol didn't help things there either.

 

[G4dude]

Besides not selling shares, they also cancelled a/c orders that should be arriving already, giving them more of a chance to sell said shares..

They are also wasting way too much time trying to Union bust. Who knows how much they are paying the "Employee Relations Man"!

They are also spreading their FUD campaign. One day saying things are going good, all is well. The next they are spreading rumors of furloughs.. To top it off they are tying said furloughs in with scope concessions. I, and many of us, have seen this tactic before. We see right through it.

Management is being deceitful in the way they are trying to get things done. The sad part is, if they would make an attempt to truly work with the Union, and if they would show some actual gains, they would have the cooperation of many many more pilots. (Not breaking the CBA, but they'd have a little more give and take, akin to the "tell me to jump and I'll ask how high".)

Using jobs, furloughed or otherwise, as political pawns, is no way to get things done. Just think, if they would actually do something to precipitate recalls, they'd have 495 or so more cooperative employees. People tend to work with and trust those who provide a non-hostile, productive, environment.

Finally, I'm on my 9th CEO/President over the last 11 years.... And besides Sokol, these guys are the next worst. This includes regional CEO's, mom-and pop operation owners etc...

The absolute worst CEO's/Presidents I have ever seen are the last 2 at Netjets.

It has nothing to do with me being laid off either, that was an economic faultn that occurred 3 YEARS AGO. although Sokol didn't help things there either.

Thanks for that info, bent. I have a couple of observations. I fly for NJA too, and I have heard of NONE of this. I am not clueless, I work here too, and have for a long time. Are you sure your sources are good? Also, Noe and Eyer ran a VERY good ship at NJI, so questioning their management ability seems a little-questionable- to me, no offence intended. Isn't it possible the problem is Luthi and the union radicals? And I really don't intend to offend anybody here. Except brokeflyer of course.

 

[BentOver]

Thanks for that info, bent. I have a couple of observations. I fly for NJA too, and I have heard of NONE of this. I am not clueless, I work here too, and have for a long time. Are you sure your sources are good? Also, Noe and Eyer ran a VERY good ship at NJI, so questioning their management ability seems a little-questionable- to me, no offence intended. Isn't it possible the problem is Luthi and the union radicals? And I really don't intend to offend anybody here. Except brokeflyer of course.

No offense taken...

As far as sales, I think we can all agree they are missing their targets..... For whatever reason.. I deduce it is because they have no new a/c to sell. Along with reducing passenger care via longer wait times to Owner services, cheapened ammenities. And by far the worst is going from Santulli, to a CEO like Sokol and Hansel. I would bet my right throwing arm that Santulli was much better at customer care... Heck, Hansell hasn't even said a peep to his employees.

As far as FUD.... Not one month after the famous recalls in the next couple of years announcement, hiring by around 2016.... We had a guy come from recurrent and provided a word for word account of how he was basically lambasted with" if you all don't give in to scope concessions, we can't guarantee your job, or that new a/c will arrive.." I would say that is pretty deceiftful, and downright rude bullying....

Something tells me that Eyer wasn't pulling all the strings at NJI... Any improvements or sales came from Santulli's doing and/or word of mouth via NJA customers..... From the looks of it, a monkey could have sold a share at NJA in 2006-2007.... It's like real estate... Every agent looked like the best in 2002-2007...The good ones still remain, the bad are no longer selling....Anybody can lead during the good times...

 

[fischman]

Thanks for that info, bent. I have a couple of observations. I fly for NJA too, and I have heard of NONE of this. I am not clueless, I work here too, and have for a long time. Are you sure your sources are good? Also, Noe and Eyer ran a VERY good ship at NJI, so questioning their management ability seems a little-questionable- to me, no offence intended. Isn't it possible the problem is Luthi and the union radicals? And I really don't intend to offend anybody here. Except brokeflyer of course.

In everyone's own mind there is a perception that is reality. Here is mine.

Luthi and the other "union radicals" were in office before the poop hit the fan. Everything was going great! Noe and Eyer are NOT leaders. They are "yes men" who do whatever the boss at the time says. (Did you get a chance to ask Noe how Santulli got ousted yet?) So what is the variable? What has changed? Sokol and Hansell.

And please try to not take offense to this, but I do think you are ignorant of the history and politics of the company, but I do admire you asking questions and TRYING to get the whole picture instead of the lopsided views in the GLC cockpits.

 

[G4dude]

In everyone's own mind there is a perception that is reality. Here is mine.

Luthi and the other "union radicals" were in office before the poop hit the fan. Everything was going great! Noe and Eyer are NOT leaders. They are "yes men" who do whatever the boss at the time says. (Did you get a chance to ask Noe how Santulli got ousted yet?) So what is the variable? What has changed? Sokol and Hansell.

And please try to not take offense to this, but I do think you are ignorant of the history and politics of the company, but I do admire you asking questions and TRYING to get the whole picture instead of the lopsided views in the GLC cockpits.

But, if I understand correctly, NJI was more profitable than NJA. Doesn't that speak well for Noe and Eyer? I have worked with both of them, and was very impressed. Our ops under NJI were smoother and more efficient, with better customer service and employee morale, even with no union to protect us. I see the same set of facts as y'all do, but come to vastly different conclusions.

 

[G4dude]

No offense taken...

As far as sales, I think we can all agree they are missing their targets..... For whatever reason.. I deduce it is because they have no new a/c to sell. Along with reducing passenger care via longer wait times to Owner services, cheapened ammenities. And by far the worst is going from Santulli, to a CEO like Sokol and Hansel. I would bet my right throwing arm that Santulli was much better at customer care... Heck, Hansell hasn't even said a peep to his employees.

As far as FUD.... Not one month after the famous recalls in the next couple of years announcement, hiring by around 2016.... We had a guy come from recurrent and provided a word for word account of how he was basically lambasted with" if you all don't give in to scope concessions, we can't guarantee your job, or that new a/c will arrive.." I would say that is pretty deceiftful, and downright rude bullying....

Something tells me that Eyer wasn't pulling all the strings at NJI... Any improvements or sales came from Santulli's doing and/or word of mouth via NJA customers..... From the looks of it, a monkey could have sold a share at NJA in 2006-2007.... It's like real estate... Every agent looked like the best in 2002-2007...The good ones still remain, the bad are no longer selling....Anybody can lead during the good times...

Selling shares in this economy is a tough thing. Ordering planes and hoping to sell shares? Suicidal. I have been through recurrents too, and haven't had ANY of the stuff thrown at me that you describe. NOTHING. I work here too, as do my friends at the former NJI, and we don't understand any of this acrimony. Its not that we just disagree on the fixes, we don't even agree about the facts on the ground. NJA is the best run company I ever worked for, except for NJI, and I worked for 23 of them. It is not perfect, nothing in this world is. Which company are y'all comparing NetJets to?

 

[gutshotdraw]

TRYING to get the whole picture instead of the lopsided views in the GLC cockpits.

As compared to the "fair and balanced" views in the gold tie cockpits? Please.

The amount of disinformation, distortion, and obfuscation about NJI's creation, history, operations, pay, upgrade policy, and the like that has been floating around this place for years could fill a library wing at Harvard.

Trying to correct the errors has been like Don Quixote tilting at windmills.

As with all things, including the statements from Luthi and Hansell, the truth is somewhere in the MIDDLE and ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder.