NJA size

[Pervis]

So you guys are amending in 2013???

Unknown. Management needs to provide specific data to extend till 2016, or may simply decide to open negotiations in 2012. We'll know in less than a year for sure.

 

[jetlag7]

It doesn't end, but rather becomes ammendable, as early as 2013, or as late as 2016. That is one of the concerns I had about IBB. Possibly a 9 year agreement with zero COLA and small longevity increases that don't keep up with the modaest inflation we have now.

As imacdog mentioned, there is in fact COLA for the duration of the extension period.

If upgrades continue to elude us, there will be a large number of SICs that will get zero increases until a new CBA is agreed to, which is likey to be well beyond the ammendable date.....

Typically I'm an optimistic person, but I strongly feel there will no longer be SIC's before this problem manifests. (I'm talking about "true" SIC's -- people who have never held enough seniority to bid Captain)

I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it's looking like from my point of view.

 

[G4dude]

As imacdog mentioned, there is in fact COLA for the duration of the extension period.



Typically I'm an optimistic person, but I strongly feel there will no longer be SIC's before this problem manifests. (I'm talking about "true" SIC's -- people who have never held enough seniority to bid Captain)

I hope I'm wrong, but that's what it's looking like from my point of view.

Why will there no longer be SICs?

 

[CA1900]

Why will there no longer be SICs?

Because if our Chief Executive Lawyer follows through on his furlough threat, there won't be any of us left.

 

[ultrarunner]

Why will there no longer be SICs?

because the thought is the next furlough will go all the way to the most most senior person that could hold captain and hasn't bid it.

 

[BentOver]

how long has this furlough threat been going on? Lets see.. Spring 2010..then poof, DS alerts everyone no furloughs.....

Spring 2011.....furlough threat, DS leaves NO FURLOUGHS

FALL 2011, dumbass management announces no planned furloughs for 10 years. 3 weeks later "oh we may furlough"...

How long is this stupid threat going to rattle the cages??

During management meetings I strongly suggest a sit out. Or eat and run.... If it hasn't already been happening.

 

[G4dude]

Because if our Chief Executive Lawyer follows through on his furlough threat, there won't be any of us left.

We are still overstaffed?

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Because if our Chief Executive Lawyer follows through on his furlough threat, there won't be any of us left.

As an individual within the threat segment of the seniority list, these yearly quasi threats are falling upon deaf ears. I think it is highly unlikely that additional furlough will transpire at NJA. At this point in time, it is merely a political tool wielded at the pilot group over 1.5c. I understand that they are attempting to dispose of some worn out iron but eventually crews will be needed to staff the training pipeline on incoming fleets in late 2012. It's conceivable that they could furlough, but IMHO it would not serve the company well.

 

[OPECJet]

As an individual within the threat segment of the seniority list, these yearly quasi threats are falling upon deaf ears. I think it is highly unlikely that additional furlough will transpire at NJA. At this point in time, it is merely a political tool wielded at the pilot group over 1.5c. I understand that they are attempting to dispose of some worn out iron but eventually crews will be needed to staff the training pipeline on incoming fleets in late 2012. It's conceivable that they could furlough, but IMHO it would not serve the company well.

I think management has already proved they will happily make decisions that don't serve the company well.

 

[fischman]

We are still overstaffed?

Well management has claimed that we are 300 overstaffed for years now. We have had a net loss of owners in the past year making us more overstaffed.

Now come the Globals and Phenoms. Are you seeing the carrot yet?

 

[fischman]

As an individual within the threat segment of the seniority list, these yearly quasi threats are falling upon deaf ears. I think it is highly unlikely that additional furlough will transpire at NJA. At this point in time, it is merely a political tool wielded at the pilot group over 1.5c. I understand that they are attempting to dispose of some worn out iron but eventually crews will be needed to staff the training pipeline on incoming fleets in late 2012. It's conceivable that they could furlough, but IMHO it would not serve the company well.

You can believe that if you like. Let's wait and see what happens when management takes the gloves off. They aren't even slapping us yet. Just taunts so far.

I don't like being taunted.

 

[BentOver]

Blueridge hit the nail on the head......

Are we going to go through this every year? Every time management wants something? Timing of sell-offs, 1.5.4, Globals and Phenoms, is all way too coincidental.


Sadly, management thinks that dangling some Phenoms/Globals in front of the pilot group and then threatening to take them away, is going to accomplish anything....... Works at the regionals with a bunch of 20 somethings. Not gonna work at NJA...

 

[LAZYB]

... eventually crews will be needed to staff the training pipeline on incoming fleets in late 2012. It's conceivable that they could furlough, but IMHO it would not serve the company well.

Yeah it seems like they'd have to train for the a/c before they come on property...

Butt who knows how this new genre of fractional management, "trained" by Sokol, will prepare for success. Or not.

 

[rajflyboy]

Loss of overtime was a function of the flying decreasing due to the ecomony. There was no vacation loss; it was either credited to pilots during the bid period change, or was paid out.

$5000 more salary in hotel points than what pilots make now? Puh-lease. Give me cash and I'll determine how to spend it, thanks.

Time to step back into reality, Raj.

This is the exact lies and bullcrap that pissed me off about IBB. What you wrote is a pure lie. Paid out in money does not = a vacation day that someone wants.

This again is pure SHEEP Mentality. Vacation was lost. Some want the time off and don't care about the money. Pilots getting their vacation days back wasn't even considered in IBB >> that happened because of the economy at a later date.

We lost the vacation because of the bid period change. Get the facts straight before you speak.

I don't follow SHEEP!

Pretty obvious we need a proper election real SOON.

 

[rajflyboy]

Some think we are all sheep and will follow the alpha sheep no matter what.

Wake up. Don't let this crap happen anymore.

 

[imacdog]

What I said wasn't a lie. It is what happened.

 

[realityman]

PIC's basically took a pay cut if you consider overtime and then add in vacation that was lost.

you apparently have no clue how many credit card points we used to collect? I'm guessing easily $5000 bucks more per year than a pilot is getting now.

Well, I'm a PIC who has been with the company since '97. I am on the 7/7 schedule. Have always been. And I can tell you that even with the loss of O/T (which, by the way, is a result of reduced flying, NOT anything in the IBB. How on earth did you reach THAT conclusion?!), I'm still making more than prior to IBB.

I guess we have to be careful what we wish for. Since I've been with this company, all I've heard is pilots screaming that scheduling needed to be more efficient. They used to send you out well before 0800 on day 1 just because they could, not because they actually NEEDED you out that early. Lots of extra coin in our pockets because of that. Now, I rarely go out early on day 1, and the schedule seems to work just fine for them, but it does remove that extra money form my pocket. They also used to bring you on very early in the rest of the tour just because, and you'd frequently go over 12 hours, even if they didn't really need you, which resulted in more O/T for us. Now they are watching it much more closely and I find myself mysteriously working right up to 12 hours, but not often beyond it.

We can make fun of scheduling all we want, but they HAVE become more efficient, and now we don't like it because it took O/T away from us. But I fail to see how that's related to IBB.

Everyone got a pay raise with IBB, and although I realize no one really saw it coming, we would NEVER have gotten (yes, I feel secure with this statement) if we had to negotiate in this economic environment, and especially with this/Sokol management team.

Yes, the contract could be extended. Is that really such a bad thing given the current economic environment? Not having to worry about paying for medical is worth quite a bit to me alone!

Greatly expanded basing for all! Seriously, your biggest concern is with AMEX points? By the way, how did you arrive at a loss of $5K in credit card benefits? Have you ever done the math on ANY of those benefits programs? Typically, the benefit is equivalent to 1% of the purchases. So a loss of $5K in benefits means we somehow lost $500,000 in purchases? What the heck are you buying at home?! Even if you're talking about the value of things in rewards programs, typically the credit card companies value their stuff at maximum retail value, when often you can find the same stuff for less money at most stores. Ask me how I know this. So they inflate prices to provide less value for your rewards points.

Anyway, no way would I trade the other gains made in IBB for some credit card benefits. Thank goodness you aren't on our negotiating committee!

There are so many other benefits to the IBB it's hard to list them all!

Yes, there are some problems with it too. I have no problem admitting that. I guess the REAL question is, can you point to ANY contract that could be said to be perfect? We will NEVER have a CBA that will make every single pilot happy simultaneously.

You may not like the IBB, and that's great. You have your reasons. So do some others. Each to his own. I understand. What I don't understand is how you figure we'd actually be better off right now if we had passed on it.

One thing I do know is that it was voted in by a vast majority, and while I read a lot of hyperbole from a few folks who are disgruntled with it, it seems most do not have 'buyer's remorse' about it. We can all ( I do it myself) pick out sections that need improvement, but to take that as an endorsement that most folks are dissatisfied with the document as a whole, or that the document as a whole is bad, is a big stretch.

I read the IBB before the vote. The whole thing, not just section 27. I even pointed out a few things that I didn't like. And I can tell you that at least for me, I'm doing much better than if we had passed on it. Most of the SIC's I fly with seem happy with it. There is a little more discontent among the captains with it, but not in any significant numbers.

Okay, we know you don't like it. Now enlighten us on how you think we'd be better off if we had voted no on it. This I gotta hear. And don't color it with colors that don't exist. In other words, don't tell me we could've gotten bigger raises if we had held out without telling me HOW we could have gotten those raises. Remember, it was a cooperative effort, We weren't in section 6, so we had very little leverage. The company wanted something, we wanted something. We worked PEACEABLY to reach an agreement. So, Raj, how would we be better if we had voted no, and what methods could we have used to get it?

 

[Helmsalee]

Very well thought out and written, rman. Too bad that we don't see more posts like that here. If we did maybe the posters would actually have a chance to change some minds. I interviewed before IBB but was hired after it passed, so I did not vote on it. I must admit that it was great to be hired for a much better job than the one applied for.
Helm

 

[LAZYB]

realityman, well said. Have a nice Thanksgiving. Helmsalee too.

 

[G4dude]

Well, I'm a PIC who has been with the company since '97. I am on the 7/7 schedule. Have always been. And I can tell you that even with the loss of O/T (which, by the way, is a result of reduced flying, NOT anything in the IBB. How on earth did you reach THAT conclusion?!), I'm still making more than prior to IBB.

I guess we have to be careful what we wish for. Since I've been with this company, all I've heard is pilots screaming that scheduling needed to be more efficient. They used to send you out well before 0800 on day 1 just because they could, not because they actually NEEDED you out that early. Lots of extra coin in our pockets because of that. Now, I rarely go out early on day 1, and the schedule seems to work just fine for them, but it does remove that extra money form my pocket. They also used to bring you on very early in the rest of the tour just because, and you'd frequently go over 12 hours, even if they didn't really need you, which resulted in more O/T for us. Now they are watching it much more closely and I find myself mysteriously working right up to 12 hours, but not often beyond it.

We can make fun of scheduling all we want, but they HAVE become more efficient, and now we don't like it because it took O/T away from us. But I fail to see how that's related to I

Everyone got a pay raise with IBB, and although I realize no one really saw it coming, we would NEVER have gotten (yes, I feel secure with this statement) if we had to negotiate in this economic environment, and especially with this/Sokol management team.

Yes, the contract could be extended. Is that really such a bad thing given the current economic environment? Not having to worry about paying for medical is worth quite a bit to me alone!

Greatly expanded basing for all! Seriously, your biggest concern is with AMEX points? By the way, how did you arrive at a loss of $5K in credit card benefits? Have you ever done the math on ANY of those benefits programs? Typically, the benefit is equivalent to 1% of the purchases. So a loss of $5K in benefits means we somehow lost $500,000 in purchases? What the heck are you buying at home?! Even if you're talking about the value of things in rewards programs, typically the credit card companies value their stuff at maximum retail value, when often you can find the same stuff for less money at most stores. Ask me how I know this. So they inflate prices to provide less value for your rewards points.

Anyway, no way would I trade the other gains made in IBB for some credit card benefits. Thank goodness you aren't on our negotiating committee!

There are so many other benefits to the IBB it's hard to list them all!

Yes, there are some problems with it too. I have no problem admitting that. I guess the REAL question is, can you point to ANY contract that could be said to be perfect? We will NEVER have a CBA that will make every single pilot happy simultaneously.

You may not like the IBB, and that's great. You have your reasons. So do some others. Each to his own. I understand. What I don't understand is how you figure we'd actually be better off right now if we had passed on it.

One thing I do know is that it was voted in by a vast majority, and while I read a lot of hyperbole from a few folks who are disgruntled with it, it seems most do not have 'buyer's remorse' about it. We can all ( I do it myself) pick out sections that need improvement, but to take that as an endorsement that most folks are dissatisfied with the document as a whole, or that the document as a whole is bad, is a big stretch.

I read the IBB before the vote. The whole thing, not just section 27. I even pointed out a few things that I didn't like. And I can tell you that at least for me, I'm doing much better than if we had passed on it. Most of the SIC's I fly with seem happy with it. There is a little more discontent among the captains with it, but not in any significant numbers.

Okay, we know you don't like it. Now enlighten us on how you think we'd be better off if we had voted no on it. This I gotta hear. And don't color it with colors that don't exist. In other words, don't tell me we could've gotten bigger raises if we had held out without telling me HOW we could have gotten those raises. Remember, it was a cooperative effort, We weren't in section 6, so we had very little leverage. The company wanted something, we wanted something. We worked PEACEABLY to reach an agreement. So, Raj, how would we be better if we had voted no, and what methods could we have used to get it?

What he said. Great post.