NJA size

[G4dude]

That would have to fall under a cost analysis..... and what managment decided to do.Furlough active guys before, then recalling them OR just recalling from the current furloughed list...

If they furloughed some guys first, they would owe them 2 months of pay and benefits.. Then upon recall they may have to pay for training on a different a/c maybe?? Two months of pay is probably about$15K or so. And then whatever costs are to train at FSI..

If they decided to flat out suck it up and recall some of the 495, they would definitely face the costs of Indoc, FSI, IOE etc....

My opinion is that even if these costs are in the $40K range for a recall. That is definitely less of a burdon than farming out the flying to an outside vendor..

I don't have numbers BUT what is the value of even 1 owner getting pissed and leaving (because of avoidable subcontracting) VS. incurring a $40K cost/pilot for a recall.

I would think that a multi million diollar contract is costlier in the end...

Hmmm. Good info, but I suspect management knows the comparative costs. Interesting thoughts, though.

 

[BentOver]

I understand your intent on having the company be as financially viable as possible.(I am not a Union crazy, I feel they have their agendas too) Unfortunately I feel you are missing the big picture on what giving in on scope will truly mean for the current pilots at Netjets. It is a transferring of flying away from Netjets and giving it to someone else.

If anything I think the current language is too lax. At the moment they can sell-off an unlimited amount on 11 days scott free. 11 days is more than 12% of a fiscal quarter. So on 12% of the year NJA can sell-off an unlimited number of flights. That is more than adequate to cover the busiest time like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Presidents day weekends etc...

 

[BentOver]

Hmmm. Good info, but I suspect management knows the comparative costs. Interesting thoughts, though.

The costs are the easy thing to put a finger on. What management (nor pilots) can quantify is the costs on the owners in terms of how many times will an owner be sold off until he/she says this place isn't worth the $$. Getting put on a brokered flight is no different than going out and flying charter....In the end, why not just charter a flight if your gonna be put on one.

Luckily the pilots are out there every day mixing it up with the owners. We, as pilots, see what the owners generally like and dislike. Sometimes the owners tell us, sometimes we can see it in their faces. We see what some of the catering orders look like, we see if an owner is upset if their car isn't at an FBO, the car is wrong etc.. It's stuff managment cannot see.

Typical for management, they see nothing but numbers and charts and think everything is great. They don't see the differences in a Netjets crew in an FBO vs. some mom and pop outfit NJA has hired to do some flying.

 

[gutshotdraw]

G4, why don't you seek insight from the union board, rather than a public sight? Yea, you may get hammered by a few, as do I, but you will get far more insight and background there when you ask direct questions that should not be shared in public. Those of us from the "A" side don't suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, although I will admit your "captor" was far more generous with you than with us until a short time ago.

You're kidding, right? Hammered by a few? ANYONE that expresses an opinion on that board that isn't 100% pro-union dogma is DESTROYED unmercifully.

It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or sincere the viewpoint. The merits of the argument are totally dismissed and the politics of personal destruction, derision, and name-calling begin. A civil disagreement over important issues is IMPOSSIBLE and more poo gets flung than by 100 crack-addicted monkeys at the San Diego Zoo.

This site is much the same although the presence of outsiders somewhat tempers the discussion.

In my best Andy Rooney imitation: "Ever notice how few people actually post on the message board anymore? Maybe it's because they're sick of being called stupid by people that don't know the difference between to, too, and two just because they have a different opinion..."

 

[gret]

You're kidding, right? Hammered by a few? ANYONE that expresses an opinion on that board that isn't 100% pro-union dogma is DESTROYED unmercifully.

It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or sincere the viewpoint. The merits of the argument are totally dismissed and the politics of personal destruction, derision, and name-calling begin. A civil disagreement over important issues is IMPOSSIBLE and more poo gets flung than by 100 crack-addicted monkeys at the San Diego Zoo.

This site is much the same although the presence of outsiders somewhat tempers the discussion.

In my best Andy Rooney imitation: "Ever notice how few people actually post on the message board anymore? Maybe it's because they're sick of being called stupid by people that don't know the difference between to, too, and two just because they have a different opinion..."

You're a smart man (woman)...and I mean that.

 

[G4dude]

You're kidding, right? Hammered by a few? ANYONE that expresses an opinion on that board that isn't 100% pro-union dogma is DESTROYED unmercifully.

It doesn't matter how well-reasoned or sincere the viewpoint. The merits of the argument are totally dismissed and the politics of personal destruction, derision, and name-calling begin. A civil disagreement over important issues is IMPOSSIBLE and more poo gets flung than by 100 crack-addicted monkeys at the San Diego Zoo.

This site is much the same although the presence of outsiders somewhat tempers the discussion.

In my best Andy Rooney imitation: "Ever notice how few people actually post on the message board anymore? Maybe it's because they're sick of being called stupid by people that don't know the difference between to, too, and two just because they have a different opinion..."

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I was feeling kinda outnumbered! The union guys feel they are in the vast majority mainly because we free market types avoid the personal attacks and stay off the boards, ESPECIALLY the non-anonymous ones. There are a whole lot more of us that the union people realize. So, thank you again, Gutshot.

 

[Pervis]

And finally, I never stated what you had or had not done..... It's up to you if you feel it was an indescretion or not.

A quote from your post #212-the last sentence:

"Unfortunately your indiscretion was both easy to discover and pretty public in the NJA world."

Twisting the truth is another common tactic used by some on the union boards. Most simply skim over multiple threads and miss the manipulations so common to the more aggressive attack dogs. But not because they don't pay attention. They've come to expect it.

 

[G4dude]

A quote from your post #212-the last sentence:

"Unfortunately your indiscretion was both easy to discover and pretty public in the NJA world."

Twisting the truth is another common tactic used by some on the union boards. Most simply skim over multiple threads and miss the manipulations so common to the more aggressive attack dogs. But not because they don't pay attention. They've come to expect it.

I don't think they realize how many of us wouldn't dream of spending time on the ASAP board, because it is too unpleasant. Differences are not treated as honest, but as attacks on the Working Class, per Karl Marx. I am exaggerating of course.

 

[Pervis]

Gutshot, you're right. But those attacks come from the same few and are seen by the majority for what they are. Those few hang in a tight little circle where everyone agrees with each other, and when on the road, they intimidate to the point few will disagree for fear of creating an unpleasant work environment.

A few of us stand up to the bullies, and many more silently support us. I'm not asking anyone else to join the frey, so to speak, but am asking more to stay informed with some very important decisions that are being made. The Eboard members frequently respond to questions and concerns, and do so without emotion for the most part. While I don't always agree with them, they stand apart from the more aggressive types.

 

[OPECJet]

G4, what concerns you more. A union that won't cave on concessions that will only make improvements to a member of management's image in the eyes of a senile old SOB, or a management team who will willingly deny an owner access to his aircraft in order to circumvent the scope section of the CBA?

Cry "bad economy" all you want. The other fracs seem to be selling shares and replacing aircraft while NJA isn't. In the meantime, you think giving up scope will save your job by saving the company. Stop being scared.