nja owner tell me this ?

[netjetwife]

Gee, thanks for the lesson, Prof! I said I hated it, not that I did poorly in it... I guess I must have missed the day they discussed utopian society though: When we start living in Neverland, that might happen. Last I checked, we weren't there. All other factors being equal, the lowest price wins. That is the nature of competition. Strive to provide a better product at a better price. And what exactly is the point of competition? Oh yeah, to WIN, and hope to be the last standing, as a monopoly in a competition-free environment.

I understand Thurston and Lovey aren’t shopping in the bargain basement, but they also didn’t get rich by being stupid with their money.

One thing you said rings true - though you probably didn't intend it exactly this way, since it's the flip-side of your point: Lack of competition, while it may result in higher salaries (a la regulation-era airlines), most likely will result in complacency and a degredation of service. However, if you're the only game in town that won't really matter, will it (until another upstart comes along - deja vu)?

By the way, what exactly in what you quoted of me was incorrect? I need to go back and correct my notes...

The incorrect part, which I had quoted for you, was your focus on product price as the only area (by implication since you left out everything else) of competition. Utopian society? That has no bearing on my post. I didn't say those practices aren't out there. All one has to do is look at frac salaries to see that companies are exploiting the labor force. You took my words out of context, UG. I was pointing out the type of competition that the pilots can look upon favorably. I meant exactly what I said about competition keeping the pilots on their toes in delivering quality service. All other factors being equal? With all the variables there are? To quote you, "Last I checked we weren't there".

 

[gunfyter]

Interesting statistics but what do they prove? Compare NJ to CS. Based on aircraft, NJ is roughly 5 times the size of CS.

According to your stats CS has 13 flying and NJ has 68. Roughly 5 times as many.
CS 74 aircraft. It think NJ has between 350 and 375.
CS has about 325 pilots. By a factor of 5 that should equate to 1625 NJ pilots. But NJ has 2400 pilots. The prices are roughly the same but NJ's ratio of pilots to aircraft is about 50% higher. The ration of owners to pilots is a better gage but I don't have that info.

What's my point? The job is only worth so much. Can NJ afford the contract they have with the pilots without ignificantly raising their rates? I am just offering this as food for thought. UAL set the bar for pay and Delta used that as a base barganing position. Neither could afford it and we all know the rest of the story. Not that pilot pay was the cause of their demose, it certainly played a role. Only time will tell what the net result will be in the Fraq industry.

I believe NJ has over 600 aircraft and just over 3000 pilots.

I have already burned over $250,000 in jet fuel SO FAR this yr. My salary so far is a fraction of just the fuel costs. And the difference between my salary and the lowest paid Fractional jet captain in the industry is far smaller fraction. And the fuel cost is a small fraction of the overall costs to the owners.

 

[Ultra Grump]

NJW -

I never said price was the only area of competition. Want me to write a textbook and spell out every one? But you said (by implication as well) essentially that there is no price pressure in the fractional competition equation. I say you are wrong.

...healthy ( as in no tactics of exploiting the labor force) competition...

Where exactly does this condition exist? Utopia, if anywhere. That's the bearing on your post.

I know you meant exactly what you said. I said I thought what you had posted was true, but for a reason other than your original intent. Hence my take on the same idea. Same point, from a different angle. You might want to read more closely before commenting.

Regarding "all other factors being equal," you might want to go back to your econ classes. Pretty much the only way to gauge the effect of just one given factor is to hold all other factors equal.

This entire discussion really is moot, since there are way too many factors involved to truly measure the effect of just one, and we really aren't talking about just one. Regardless, more competition in our marketplace will not result in higher pilot salaries. You can count on that.

 

[netjetwife]

Ohhh UG, you are missing the whole point of the conversation, which was never a purely economic discussion to begin with. It was originally a frac rivalry issue started by Hammer 2 saying that Flex was better than NJA. After a few pages of it I tried to lend a balanced perspective to the thread with my post from page 3--copied here for your convenience.

I,personally, am pleased to hear when the other frac companies are getting along fine. That must surely be an indicator of a strong market for your services and that bodes well for all of us. Productive pilots are justified in their demands for professional wages. Industry standards benefit all pilots. Healthy, respectful competition keeps you all on your toes, but when it comes to fighting for fairness in the fractional industry I hope y'all remember that you're all on the same side.

The business side of the job isn't something that the pilots have direct control over. Service, however, is and that's where I think they should focus their urge to compete with one another. My point was that friendly competition....in this context meaning rivalry....can be a good thing, but the ugly kind just divides pilots whose time would be better spent working together to improve the lot of all pilots in the industry. Frac pilots can't control the economy but they certainly are responsible for their attitudes and treatment of their peers in the industry. Those who are underpaid can join forces and win a fair/good contract so that their low wages (my reference to exploitation) aren't used to hold down salaries at other companies. I'd like to see frac pilots pull each other up--not down.

 

[Ultra Grump]

No NJW, you are missing the point. I did not enter this thread responding to you. I responded to a post Gunfyter made about more fractional competitors = competition for pilots = higher pilot salaries. Here it is again, since you seem to have forgotten:

We want competition for pilot jobs. Which will occur if demand outstrips supply of fractional jets ... but not if ONE provider has a monopoly on the jobs.

we want a monopoly on pilot labor.... ie a Cartel of Pilot labor ... a union.

But whereas I am a consumer of pilot jobs... I want competition.

Like the ELOAN.com commercial.

When employers compete for your services... you win.

I disagree with that opinion. It had nothing to do with you, or your points, until you decided to jump in and try to take that tangent (admittedly) off on another tangent. Your post above has nothing to do with my original point.

Apparently you think I'm an idiot. I know what the thread was about. I was not commenting on the thread as a whole. I was specifically reacting to one particular
point made by one particular individual (not you). Every comment made on this board that you disagree with somehow becomes an attack on unionism and the injustice we fractional pilots are suffering. Please - give it a rest.

I will respond to your last point, though. The goal in business is to win. In order to win, others have to lose. I do not work for Flight Options. I do not work for FlexJet, nor CitationShares. I work for NetJets, and NetJets is the only fractional company I wish to see succeed. The more success NetJets has, the better off we, NetJets employees, will be. If that means the failure of Flight Options, or any other fractional, so be it. If other fractionals fail, that makes us stronger. Their owners will go somewhere for their shiny jets, and it's better for us if they come here. Growth, upgrade, and job security would be the result. I am going to do my job to the best of my ability, to do my part to see that that ultimately is the end result. To wish otherwise is foolish.

 

[netjetwife]

Don't put words in my mouth, UG. Everyone knows that I'm more than capable of doing that for myself. I did use those smiles in my posts to you. I have noticed that you write intelligently, even if we don't always agree. I do remember Gunfyter's posts. I read carefully. Many times there are numerous points being made and it is necessary (if you are trying to be fair) to go back and reread the thread before responding so that you have a complete understanding of where that person is coming from. I was merely pointing out that you had overlooked other variables in your focus on price alone. I had been consistent in discussing service.

This would become a very boring place if one only spoke/posted when directly spoken to. That said, if you are asking me never to respond to your posts, I will honor that request. As to unions--I advocate the pilots standing up for their right to a professional contract. If they have a better way to go about it that will produce the needed result, fine. I haven't seen it and NJ does have the best deal in the frac industry. I think the other frac pilots deserve professional compensation, as well. It is human nature to get stuck in a rut and need encouragement to climb out. There are more who read than post here and I am more aware of that than others, it seems. I post to the larger audience, and with a card drive taking place and Options getting ready to negotiate their first contract, this is a critical time for lots of frac families. Therefore, I won't be "giving it a rest". I will not be offended if you put me on your ignore list.

Speaking of foolish--I think it is a short-sighted view to ignore the very real possibility that low wages in the industry can be used to pull down the salaries of the NJ pilots. Same thing applies to benefits and QOL issues. If you want to keep those things secure you'd be better off seeing them become industry standards that NJA would have no justification in denying to their pilots. As things stand they have the logical argument--the others don't so why should we?--to use against the pilots.

It saddens me to see the "got mine" attitude among the NJ pilots. I can tell you that all of the pilots and their families would be much worse off if not for those in volunteer and leadership positions that don't share your mentality. It often goes hand in hand that those willing to right a wrong feel that it should apply to everyone facing an injustice, not just their own circle of friends. There's that word again...injustice. That's what the low wages are. Perhaps you were satisfied with your pay. Most were not before the new CBA that my husband, and other SU volunteers, helped bring about.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I was merely pointing out that you had overlooked other variables in your focus on price alone. I had been consistent in discussing service.

Price alone was not my focus, merely a shining example.

This would become a very boring place if one only spoke/posted when directly spoken to. That said, if you are asking me never to respond to your posts, I will honor that request.

That is not what I was asking, nor what I was saying. My point was that I responded directly to someone else, about a specific point, and you responded to me about something else entirely.

Speaking of foolish--I think it is a short-sighted view to ignore the very real possibility that low wages in the industry can be used to pull down the salaries of the NJ pilots. Same thing applies to benefits and QOL issues.

You're right, and I made no comment on that issue.

If you want to keep those things secure you'd be better off seeing them become industry standards that NJA would have no justification in denying to their pilots. As things stand they have the logical argument--the others don't so why should we?--to use against the pilots.

The best way to ensure "industry standards" is to be the industry - to drive the others out of business, eliminate the competition. This has been my point all along. Having more competition does NOT lead to higher pilot wages.

It saddens me to see the "got mine" attitude among the NJ pilots. I can tell you that all of the pilots and their families would be much worse off if not for those in volunteer and leadership positions that don't share your mentality. It often goes hand in hand that those willing to right a wrong feel that it should apply to everyone facing an injustice, not just their own circle of friends. There's that word again...injustice. That's what the low wages are. Perhaps you were satisfied with your pay. Most were not before the new CBA that my husband, and other SU volunteers, helped bring about.

Again, you are responding to something I did not comment on. I made no comment about "I got mine, screw the rest." I said nothing about "I'm happy with what I have, why fight for more?" I am very grateful for everything 1108 has done for us. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I was discussing, so why do you bring it up? Again, my point is that more competition in the fractional industry will not help to increase the "industry standard" more than having no competition. It is not my job, nor my worry, to see that Flight Options, FlexJet, or CitationShares succeed. It is my job to help NetJets succeed, as that is who puts money in my bank account and food on my plate.

Yes, if the other fracs' pilots get "industry standard" (i.e. NetJets) contracts, that is better for us than if they're bottom-feeders. Why, aside from the obvious "race-to-the-bottom" aspects? Because if they are on par with NJA, their costs will be higher, pricing will necessarily be higher, they'll be less competitive, and with the notoriously bad management practices in aviation, might help speed their demise. I think we are both fighting the same battle, but different wars. The immediate tactical objective is to improve frac salary and qol across the board. We both agree on this. However, your long-term strategy seems to be to have all the frac families well-taken-care-of. Mine is to see our (NJA) families best-taken-care-of.

 

[netjetwife]

A few "shining" examples of your attitude, UG

The best way to ensure "industry standards" is to be the industry - to drive the others out of business, eliminate the competition. This has been my point all along. You are reinforcing the attitude that you deny having. Having more competition does NOT lead to higher pilot wages. Though you state later that it will even if you think it will only be temporary.

Again, you are responding to something I did not comment on. I made no comment about "I got mine, screw the rest." The words above just prove me right (sadly) but you don't like the image so you deny having it. Again, my point is that more competition in the fractional industry will not help to increase the "industry standard" more than having no competition. It is not my job, nor my worry, to see that Flight Options, FlexJet, or CitationShares succeed. It is my job to help NetJets succeed, as that is who puts money in my bank account and food on my plate. Attitudes aren't jobs. Supporting a good cause doesn't require more than a sense of concern and the ability to empathize. This rationalization was example # 2 of the attitude you claim not to have.

Yes, if the other fracs' pilots get "industry standard" (i.e. NetJets) contracts, that is better for us than if they're bottom-feeders. Because if they are on par with NJA, their costs will be higher, pricing will necessarily be higher, they'll be less competitive, What if they offered better service or some other convenience that was attractive to owners? and with the notoriously bad management practices in aviation, might help speed their demise. Or management would be forced to get their act together and increase efficiency. Another possibility is that the owners would be educated about the need to pay pilots like the professionals they are and part of the expense would be passed on. The immediate tactical objective is to improve frac salary and qol across the board. We both agree on this. However, your long-term strategy seems to be to have all the frac families well-taken-care-of. Mine is to see our (NJA) families best-taken-care-of.

That last is example # 3 and leads me to declare that the emperor has no clothes. As much as you might wish to deny it, your attitude comes through loud and clear. Not only is your objective extremely selfish, but it is unrealistic as well. In the absence of competition comes complacency which results in decreased service. There is no incentive to treat customers well when they have no place to go. (Ditto for NJ and its pilots) That would be the only opening an entrepreneur needed to enter the market. As long as the demand exists there will be other companies interested in the industry. Labor is an integral part of that economic picture. Professional wages for pilots must become a cost of doing business just like the fuel that powers the planes.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Wow, are you blind to anything but your own self-righteous objective.

Having more competition does NOT lead to higher pilot wages.

Though you state later that it will even if you think it will only be temporary.

You seem to think I am stating causality. I am not. Therefore your point is invalid. Where did I say the competition resulted in higher wages? I didn't.

What if they offered better service or some other convenience that was attractive to owners?

Do they? I don't think so. Simply from our sheer size and ability to get an aircraft to them quickly, we have them beat.

Or management would be forced to get their act together and increase

efficiency.

Uh huh.

Another possibility is that the owners would be educated about the need to pay pilots like the professionals they are and part of the expense would be passed on.

As higher prices - my point exactly.

In the absence of competition comes complacency which results in decreased service. There is no incentive to treat customers well when they have no place to go. (Ditto for NJ and its pilots) That would be the only opening an entrepreneur needed to enter the market. As long as the demand exists there will be other companies interested in the industry.

If you were truly paying attention to what I've been saying, you'd know that I've already said that. Something about cycles...

Labor is an integral part of that economic picture. Professional wages for pilots must become a cost of doing business just like the fuel that powers the planes.

Um, yeah. When have I said otherwise?

None of what you said has addressed the fact that having more competition in the industry will not, just by its existence, result in higher pilot wages. Just because competition exists does not mean wages will rise - you might want to call your local econ professor to check on that. The Flops pilots may or may not get industry-standard pay. And what if they don't? Then what if Flex matches Flops' substandard pay? What then? How has the sheer existence of that competition then resulted in higher pay for frac pilots?

You are reinforcing the attitude that you deny having...example # 2...example # 3...

So in your world, wanting one's company to beat the competition equals having an "I got mine, so screw you" attitude? If so, I guess I do, and I would never hire someone with your point of view. Your husband gets his pay, and as a result you get your time to spend here, and your kids get fed, because NetJets exists and pays him to do his best for them. He does not get paid to help the competitors' pilots improve their lots in life. He does not get paid to empathize with our competition. Unions have their place, but in the end the company exists to make money, and to beat the competition. It is our solemn duty as employees of NetJets to do our very best to help that goal come to fruition. Period.

 

[hammer2]

I really just wanted nja owners opinion. I couldn't tell anybody who is better. I can tell who has a better product. I think the pricing is so close, that the product COULD make a difference. recovery time is an issue. Regardless of who is better, a good sales staff doesn't hurt. I just hope this gig last 15 more years then I'm retiring, and you will never have to read my post again!!!!!!!!!

 

[netjetwife]

I don't mind reading your posts and I hope the frac jobs, at NJ and elsewhere, remain viable for many years to come. NJW

 

[NJAowner]

Hammer/NJW

As I have said ont his board many times, frax will be around in some shape or form for a long time. Now that many of us have been introduced to and have become reliant upon general aviation, we will not go back. This does not mean prices can go wherever. I still fly commercial quite often. If I had half of the $$ posters think that all owners have, I would buy a few more shares! The simple fact is that frax fills the void between flying commercial and the great expenses and time commitment and headache of owning your own plane (and assuming we do not like playing Russian Roulette with the charters -- no offense to the Russians on this board).

Also, as could be inferred by a post on another thread, until the frax come up with a way to fly without pilots, there will always be demand for frax pilots. Middle level management can be cut easily; they do not fly. But as far as pilot salaries, it will always be a supply & demand issue. Finally, one poster has been looking at controlling the supply side.

Fly safe.

 

[netjetwife]

'Owner, I also believe that the frac business is here to stay. My post above was meant as one of my less obvious forms of support for pilots from other companies. It was an indirect response to UG's stated desire to see their "demise", as competitors.

I think there are sufficient factors involved to keep things dynamic, motivate pilots to deliver excellent service, and provide opportunities for other companies to stay in business. I want to see the other frac pilots get to keep their jobs and remain where they live. I don't think a frac monopoly--with no other place for owners or pilots to go--serves anyone but BH. I'm pulling for a strong industry, not just a strong company. People like to have choices. Whether we're talking about a mode of transportation or the company a pilot works for, having the option of going elsewhere gives that person more control over the situation.

 

[Ultra Grump]

...UG's stated desire to see their "demise", as competitors...I'm pulling for a strong industry, not just a strong company.

Any employee of a company who has his competitors' best interests at heart ought not to be long for that company. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, and for that reason I'm glad you're not an NJA employee.

 

[netjetwife]

Everyone knows that the economy runs in cycles, but most don't wish to see companies fall on hard times. If it turns out that a business had to close its doors, most people sympathize with those who lost their jobs. Pilots have little or no control over how the frac companies are run. Why not wish each other well? Since when does philosophical outlook affect job performance?

If I were a pilot I'd make an exemplary NJ employee. I'm very hard working, polite, and would look good in the uniform I'd hand over the plane clean and well stocked. At the same time, I would wish Options pilots well in their negotiations and encourage Flex pilots to turn in their cards. There are NJ pilots out there doing what I just described. The two attitudes are independent of each other. Withholding camaraderie might make life less pleasant out on the road for your fellow pilots in the industry, but it won't make or break the companies they fly for.

NJA is improved by how pilots perform on duty, not what they post in their free time.