NJA announces 1000 applications for pilot positions

[realityman]

Man, you just have a comeback for everything don't ya.

Okay, try reading what's written. I know a couple of those places already have unions. That's why I tried to cover all the bases by saying, "....more, AND BETTER, unions.".

 

[pilotyip]

Man, you just have a comeback for everything don't ya.

Okay, try reading what's written. I know a couple of those places already have unions. That's why I tried to cover all the bases by saying, "....more, AND BETTER, unions.".

only speaking in the reality I have experienced man, it is like reality man. Are you saying not all unions are BETTER unions?

 

[BentOver]

Those all seem like really great companies

 

[ghostrider64]

I've always enjoyed the ridiculousness of pilots buying into managements claims that the reason you are working harder and longer, is due to a few outliers. That's a complete fabrication. The reality is you are working longer and harder because we are busier than ever, bookings through the roof, with too few pilots and planes on the property.

One who feels they are working too hard, perhaps are in fact doing so. Perhaps that crew should self evaluate if they are themselves too tired to complete their late assignment. Perhaps they might find they too are fatigued and should pull the plug.

I LOVE doing recoveries, because I know that a CREW actually did the PROFESSIONAL thing and pulled the plug, rather than pushed a maintenance issue, or their own personal limits, which could have resulted in a fatality. Or perhaps I'll go out on a limb, and say SCHEDULING really was the cause of the "recovery" in the first place. Every single day they have major errors, that are FIXED by crews.

For some reason those TACP, ACP and CP, never seem to say, "we have schedulers" that are the problem. Maybe you should ask yourself why that is? Maybe it's because they all went to the same school, and are infallible? As long as we have pilots "calling in" and LISTENING to ONE SIDE of a story, we'll continue to be led down the managements path of concession and firings. Pathetic.

 

[pilotyip]

Those all seem like really great companies

They were, great people, great airplanes, I didn't mention the other one that I did not work for like Ford, GM, Dana, Eastern, Pam am Braniff, Airborne, ATA, I could go on, but there lots of places that airline careers have died. NJ is not one of them.

 

[doh]

They were, great people, great airplanes, I didn't mention the other one that I did not work for like Ford, GM, Dana, Eastern, Pam am Braniff, Airborne, ATA, I could go on, but there lots of places that airline careers have died. NJ is not one of them.

I'm gonna agree with yip on this one. Careers don't die at NJ.

 

[G4dude]

I'm gonna agree with yip on this one. Careers don't die at NJ.

NJ was the best thing to happen to my career.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Nutjets is a career stop for the RJ F/Os who think they'll move on from there.

Agreed: NJA is where careers die.

 

[Some guy]

So just so I'm following you correctly, the handful of pilots that are "problem children" are the reason that pilots at Netjets are working fourteen hour days? 2700 pilots on the payroll what is three percent? Ok, my math says 81 pilots. So we should expect 81 pilots to be fired with no discipline? 81 troublemakers are the SOLE reason the other 2,619 pilots are working fourteen hour days?? It wouldn't have anything to do with managements bad decisions like: Whipping the horse till it bleeds? (125% out of your workforce at all times), recalling too late?, hiring too late,creating a work environment where over 800 pilots put their applications out? Not seeing the macro picture of a shortage of well qualified pilots and hiring demand in the industry? I could go on all day. Its like shooting ducks in a barrel

I think no matter what is said, you'll find a way to make it negative just to show you oppose anything I say. You do not work 7 straight 14 hour days. Do you have a few every rotation? Probably so. I never said those who don't like to work or have a vendetta against the company are the SOLE reasons you work a 14 hour day. If there are 40 pilots every rotation not wanting to fly, there are sure to be some of the good guys asked to cover extra trips. I'm beginning to wonder if you work for the company. You deny that these types exist. That or you're extremely naive although I think you're smarter than that. No they don't deserve to be fired. Contrary to your belief, the company just wants you all to do your job. That's it. It costs too much money and resources to terminate. Be one of the 3%ers and you're name becomes known fairly quick. I can't tell you if those who were let go were disciplined first. You may be told there was no discipline, but as far as I know the company doesn't publicise actions taken against employees.

There isn't a shortage of qualified pilots. Someone earlier said the majors have 10k apps on file. We have 1000 within a couple of weeks. You stated 800 of our pilots put their apps out and aren't getting hired. Where is this shortage?

I agree, the recalls and hiring were started way too late. It hurt you on the road the most, but those of us at the mothership also struggled. These decisions are made at the very top; not anyone you deal with through the normal course of business.

SG

 

[CRAWDADDY]

There isn't a shortage of qualified pilots. Someone earlier said the majors have 10k apps on file. We have 1000 within a couple of weeks. You stated 800 of our pilots put their apps out and aren't getting hired. Where is this shortage?


SG

Unfortunately, it will be a long time before the majors start giving serious consideration to pilots at NJ. But, you'll never get hired unless you apply

 

[T-1GUY]

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a private pilot license puts their application in. 10,000 applications doesn't mean 10,000 qualified pilots. Netjets is a demanding job. The pager never stops buzzing with schedule changes. It's true some days you don't work 14 hours. The normal schedule is to work twelve hours. Anything over twelve hours costs overtime and scheduling has gotten really good at avoiding overtime. The average rest from engine shutdown to show time tends to be ten to twelve hours. This time includes the time you spend waiting for the taxi or shuttle driver that takes 30 minutes to show, the 20 minute plus ride to the hotel, the line you wait in to check in, and finally the time to actually get to your room. You are lucky to get 6.5 hours of sleep a night. Do this for the first three or four days in a row along with am to pm swaps, time zone changes, etc and you are spent. You are labeled the bad guy because you call in fatigue. But the good guys can be called to cover your trip? Food poisoning on the road? If you haven't got it yet, you will. Page in sick and you have to wonder if management will call you in for one of their special "were here to help you meetings". If you are in management, you know how many requests you are receiving for pilot records. I don't believe for a minute that my 800 pilots looking and applying for other positions is out of line. The pilots have always just wanted to do their jobs for a professional wage and be treated with respect. The current management has destroyed this relationship. I could go on and on. You get the contract that you are willing to fight for. You are seeing just the beginning of this fight....

PS Say hello to Twinkie for me...

 

[ghostrider64]

NJ was the best thing to happen to my career.

And you represent everything that's ever gone wrong with 3000 others.

 

[Some guy]

Twinkie?

Why would the majors keep private pilot resumes on file? Why are commuters paying their pilots $20k if there are no qualified pilots out there? I see a shortage coming, but I don't think we're there to the extent it's hurting anyone.

I never said your job was easy and I agree 12 hour days are the norm rather than the exception. There is nothing wrong with the fatigue. Most of the time it's easy to tell why a crew is fatigued. I'd rather you fatigue than do something risky. I get a little confused when on day 1, on standby at their home base, someone fatigues when called for a trip after being on duty for 2 hours at noon. Yes it happens, along with other similarly silly scenarios. The rate of fatigues has actually dropped a little recently. Likely because the sell offs and those recalled are getting back in the seat are easing the pain slightly.

If you read my past posts, you'll see I've agreed you deserve more. As far as I know salary isn't the primary topic, it was concessions. The big one being healthcare. We used to get it free too. Now I pay less than $100. I could go elsewhere, but I have a pretty good feeling I still have it better than most in the industry.

SG

 

[realityman]

Contrary to your belief, the company just wants you all to do your job. That's it.

Be one of the 3%ers and you're name becomes known fairly quick.

SG

SG,

Most of your points are well thought out and salient. You seem to have a pretty good handle on most of the technical aspects of our jobs on the road. T-1 has it pegged about what's going on its us, and in fact he was being kind. He's left out an awful long list of things this EMT has been doing or cutting to intentionally make our lives miserable out there. And scheduling is just plain off the hook crazy. Mostly they are just trying to keep up and fill holes in the schedule, but I've been here too long and experienced too much not to also be able to recognize punitive scheduling as well.

But I wanted to focus on what you wrote above. I do believe there is a misunderstanding with that. In fact, the company does NOT want us to just do our jobs. Why? Because part of our jobs is following the regulations, and in fact is REQUIRED by the law to do so. Unfortunately, there is HUGE pressure from the company to not do that. Wish you could be out here when I go to write up a problem with the plane and get massive pushback from maintenance about it. The excuses from mx start flying, they invent procedures and standards (yes they do, and they back off quickly on that crap IF you call them on it. "Oh, sure, I'll try xyz if you fax me the FAA APPROVED guidance that says this is legal and acceptable and sign your name with it.". Amazing how fast it always becomes "Just write it up.")
Our current CBA allows for no-questions-asked fatigue calls. Recently, the company has started willfully violating that section by bringing people who fatigue "too much" (I put that in quotes because they REFUSE to clue us in on what they're using as a definition of "too much") into CMH for questioning. Yes, the union is challenging this issue, but it takes time. Meanwhile, it's intimidation, plain and simple, to do something that's A) in violation of the CBA and B) could just as easily be handled by a phone call if they were so worried about our health (as they claim is the reason for bringing folks in for questioning).
And heaven help you if you call in sick just before or after a vacation. Now, before you tell me some may be abusing the sick calls in order to extend their vacations, let me say I agree with that observation. However, please remember that most of our crews have reached the max of 4 weeks of vacation. If you look at it, that means there are 8 tours (out of 22 worked every year) that bracket vacations. That's more than 25% of our tours that touch a vacation period. So isn't it possible that if we come down with an illness there's a decent chance it will impact a tour either before or after a vacation? After vacations are especially vulnerable as we've just spent three straight weeks in contact with our kids who are regular petri dishes. And yet, the company has sent out a very blatant message of intimidation that calling in sick just before or after a vacation will result in being out on NQC status for an investigation, and in fact have already fired someone for a post-vacation sick call.

After having typed all that, my point is that the FAR's REQUIRE we self-evaluate our fitness for flight. Calling in sick and/or fatigued is REQUIRED by the FAR's if we don't feel fit for flight. Yet the company, by it's actions, has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, that they do NOT want us doing that part of our jobs along with the write ups.

Now let's get back to that 3%. Unfortunately, a lot of pilots are caving to the company's intimidation tactics. They carry, or flat out ignore, maintenance issues, and never call in sick or fatigued. So what happens when someone who simply does their job per the FAR's gets a plane after someone who is "just doing their job." (as defined by the company)? I'm not talking negotiation work tactics, as you might call it. I'm just talking about doing the job like the law says it MUST be done. Well, here's what happens. I am almost grounding a plane a day during my tours anymore. Why? Because I'm a union thug? No, because other crews are not writing up planes when they should be, so when I get them I have to do it. I'm not talking about obscure crap that you really have to dig for, I'm talking obvious stuff that you'd have to close your eyes during the preflight to miss. Seriously! I'd take a swag that better than 60% of what I find should have been found by a previous crew. That's sad and scary. So I do what I am REQUIRED to do and the result is I'm probably listed at B'way as one of the 3%'ers. I can't tell you the number of sick days I've burned in the past 2 years because I get paired with idiots who come to work sick and inevitably infect me. So the guy who "gets the job done" (at the expense of his coworkers and pax) is making the company happy while I, who actually call in sick when I'm sick, get to become a 3%'er.

So please don't be so quick to peg the 3%'ers as the folks who like to make waves and just don't want to fly. Like I said, I know there is a very small handful of pilots who are on a vendetta, but statistically are really insignificant.

Furthermore, the company loves it when we focus on the "troublesome 3% who just don't want to fly.". That way, we aren't paying attention to those who are flying when completely fatigued but who NEVER make that call. The ones who NEVER write up planes when it'll impact a pax trip, no matter the problem. The ones who horde sick days to sell back at the expense of infecting everyone around them. These are the guys who make the company happy, right up until they kill someone. These are the folks who worry me far more than the very rare abuser of the system who may cause my day to be a few hours longer.

 

[Some guy]

Reality man,

I sit nearby the schedulers. My time and experience with them with them tells me punitive scheduling doesn't happen, but I'm not in your shoes to say it doesn't feel that way to you. Most of the day they are trying to keep up with the changes and don't have the time to nitpick at people. In the evening as the operation winds down, we get calls from crews on standby asking if they're still needed. This is a good thing. Many times they aren't needed and they get shutdown asap. The reason it took the crew calling is because they're still working on other things and the focus isn't there yet. If they are still needed, they will be told "you're backing up xyz and when it departs, we'll shut you down".

You may be getting questions on maintenance gripes, but you should be getting no pushback. In fact the direction is given that unless a MM reference is available to prove something is still airworthy, they should not and cannot refuse a discrepancy. You hear aggravation in their voice because they too are understaffed and the phone never stops ringing. Escalate to the ACP or the MAB if you're etting pushed.

I'm sure there are significantly more than 3% whom never call off, fly tired, squawk mx, etc. if you're picking up aircraft that have mx issues, that's a problem too. Just because you break an airplane doesn't put you in the 3%. Most of the items are confirmed and repaired. The issues you speak dont put you in 3%. The 3% I speak of create enough waves that affect many people trying to do their jobs. Those who you agree are on a vendetta are the ones I speak of. It's probably not even 3%...and I agree the abusers are rare, but out of 2700 rare can be dozens.

If you agree that there are a select few, are there any ways to 'self police' these guys? It would seem to me that these few would actually hamper the ability for your group to attain its goals. They get the focus while you're getting beat to death on the road.

SG

 

[G4dude]

SG,

Most of your points are well thought out and salient. You seem to have a pretty good handle on most of the technical aspects of our jobs on the road. T-1 has it pegged about what's going on its us, and in fact he was being kind. He's left out an awful long list of things this EMT has been doing or cutting to intentionally make our lives miserable out there. And scheduling is just plain off the hook crazy. Mostly they are just trying to keep up and fill holes in the schedule, but I've been here too long and experienced too much not to also be able to recognize punitive scheduling as well.

But I wanted to focus on what you wrote above. I do believe there is a misunderstanding with that. In fact, the company does NOT want us to just do our jobs. Why? Because part of our jobs is following the regulations, and in fact is REQUIRED by the law to do so. Unfortunately, there is HUGE pressure from the company to not do that. Wish you could be out here when I go to write up a problem with the plane and get massive pushback from maintenance about it. The excuses from mx start flying, they invent procedures and standards (yes they do, and they back off quickly on that crap IF you call them on it. "Oh, sure, I'll try xyz if you fax me the FAA APPROVED guidance that says this is legal and acceptable and sign your name with it.". Amazing how fast it always becomes "Just write it up.")
Our current CBA allows for no-questions-asked fatigue calls. Recently, the company has started willfully violating that section by bringing people who fatigue "too much" (I put that in quotes because they REFUSE to clue us in on what they're using as a definition of "too much") into CMH for questioning. Yes, the union is challenging this issue, but it takes time. Meanwhile, it's intimidation, plain and simple, to do something that's A) in violation of the CBA and B) could just as easily be handled by a phone call if they were so worried about our health (as they claim is the reason for bringing folks in for questioning).
And heaven help you if you call in sick just before or after a vacation. Now, before you tell me some may be abusing the sick calls in order to extend their vacations, let me say I agree with that observation. However, please remember that most of our crews have reached the max of 4 weeks of vacation. If you look at it, that means there are 8 tours (out of 22 worked every year) that bracket vacations. That's more than 25% of our tours that touch a vacation period. So isn't it possible that if we come down with an illness there's a decent chance it will impact a tour either before or after a vacation? After vacations are especially vulnerable as we've just spent three straight weeks in contact with our kids who are regular petri dishes. And yet, the company has sent out a very blatant message of intimidation that calling in sick just before or after a vacation will result in being out on NQC status for an investigation, and in fact have already fired someone for a post-vacation sick call.

After having typed all that, my point is that the FAR's REQUIRE we self-evaluate our fitness for flight. Calling in sick and/or fatigued is REQUIRED by the FAR's if we don't feel fit for flight. Yet the company, by it's actions, has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt, that they do NOT want us doing that part of our jobs along with the write ups.

Now let's get back to that 3%. Unfortunately, a lot of pilots are caving to the company's intimidation tactics. They carry, or flat out ignore, maintenance issues, and never call in sick or fatigued. So what happens when someone who simply does their job per the FAR's gets a plane after someone who is "just doing their job." (as defined by the company)? I'm not talking negotiation work tactics, as you might call it. I'm just talking about doing the job like the law says it MUST be done. Well, here's what happens. I am almost grounding a plane a day during my tours anymore. Why? Because I'm a union thug? No, because other crews are not writing up planes when they should be, so when I get them I have to do it. I'm not talking about obscure crap that you really have to dig for, I'm talking obvious stuff that you'd have to close your eyes during the preflight to miss. Seriously! I'd take a swag that better than 60% of what I find should have been found by a previous crew. That's sad and scary. So I do what I am REQUIRED to do and the result is I'm probably listed at B'way as one of the 3%'ers. I can't tell you the number of sick days I've burned in the past 2 years because I get paired with idiots who come to work sick and inevitably infect me. So the guy who "gets the job done" (at the expense of his coworkers and pax) is making the company happy while I, who actually call in sick when I'm sick, get to become a 3%'er.

So please don't be so quick to peg the 3%'ers as the folks who like to make waves and just don't want to fly. Like I said, I know there is a very small handful of pilots who are on a vendetta, but statistically are really insignificant.

Furthermore, the company loves it when we focus on the "troublesome 3% who just don't want to fly.". That way, we aren't paying attention to those who are flying when completely fatigued but who NEVER make that call. The ones who NEVER write up planes when it'll impact a pax trip, no matter the problem. The ones who horde sick days to sell back at the expense of infecting everyone around them. These are the guys who make the company happy, right up until they kill someone. These are the folks who worry me far more than the very rare abuser of the system who may cause my day to be a few hours longer.

I've never been pressured to do anything illegal or unsafe. And what is all this about sick days before a vacation? If they investigate, show them what the doctor said. What are you, a bunch of 11 year old girls? Your feelings are hurt and you think life is SO UNFAIR.
You should see what the world outside NJA is like. Pretty rough in most cases. Paychecks bouncing, pressure to violate duty and maintenance regs, being on the edge of losing one's job as your company struggles, having your company bought and ravaged by another. Having to pay much of your medical coverage, finding out the company has been cooking the logs to cheat the owner who leases back the plane to your company, having to wing your checkride training because they are too cheap to send you to Flight Safety. Getting no hard days off at all, constantly on call. Being told no paycheck is coming because we are going out of business.
What a bunch of WHINERS. It's embarassing. NJA is bad compared to what?

 

[realityman]

I've never been pressured to do anything illegal or unsafe. And what is all this about sick days before a vacation? If they investigate, show them what the doctor said. What are you, a bunch of 11 year old girls? Your feelings are hurt and you think life is SO UNFAIR.
You should see what the world outside NJA is like. Pretty rough in most cases. Paychecks bouncing, pressure to violate duty and maintenance regs, being on the edge of losing one's job as your company struggles, having your company bought and ravaged by another. Having to pay much of your medical coverage, finding out the company has been cooking the logs to cheat the owner who leases back the plane to your company, having to wing your checkride training because they are too cheap to send you to Flight Safety. Getting no hard days off at all, constantly on call. Being told no paycheck is coming because we are going out of business.
What a bunch of WHINERS. It's embarassing. NJA is bad compared to what?

G4,

Congratulations on the dumbest post of the year! (and we're only 12 days in!)

So, because YOU haven't received any pushback or pressure, the rest of us haven't? The logic of a 5-year-old hard at work.

Sorry, I don't go to the doctor when I just have a cold, but I still call in sick. So what am I supposed to do if the company decides to investigate me? Anyway, you obviously make no real effort to keep up on things, as the blatant ignorance of your post attests to. One of the guys recently fired DID have a very valid excuse from a doctor. But, since it was on the end of a vacation the company chose to ignore it and fired him anyway. Yes, it'll be contested and he'll probably get his job back, but it's a process that can take a couple years. By the way, it's not rumor. Call a steward and talk to them. They'll tell you what they can. It's not good and IS a very valid reason for concern.

The rest of your post is just crap. There are worse jobs out there so we should just suck it up? Stupid reasoning. Why are you comparing us to worse jobs? Why don't you look at BETTER jobs and see how we stack up? I know the majors don't treat their crews like this. I also know of a few corporate gigs who treat their crews better. I'm more interested in looking at the better jobs and saying, "We should try to become more like them." than looking at the worse jobs and saying, "Well, at least we're not them.".

Do you think when a pilot at Delta calls in with a maintenance problem he's told to just go taxi the plane around and see if it goes away? Do you think if that same pilot calls in sick right after a vacation he's put on administrative leave until the investigation is complete?

And lastly, this WAS a good job. If you can't see where the trend is taking us (more and more towards becoming one of those crappy jobs you talk about) then you're not paying attention. You seem to think that because it's not an instantaneous change that the things we talk about here aren't really happening. We're just whining. Or you believe they don't matter. Well, good for you and your rose-colored glasses. The rest of us will still continue the fight to improve things, and even try the (almost) futile attempt to get folks such as yourself to see what's going on, and through education, maybe even save your job here when one of those things you think we're being whiny about should happen to you.

Good luck!

 

[realityman]

PS-You can quit with the condescending attitude. Newsflash buddy, most of us have had plenty of jobs in the "outside world". Been ground up in the shredder of those crappy jobs you mention. Which is exactly why I can see the trend of where we're headed. Good sales, a growing company, and new planes does not equate to a good job.

 

[pilotyip]

You should see what the world outside NJA is like. Pretty rough in most cases. Paychecks bouncing, pressure to violate duty and maintenance regs, being on the edge of losing one's job as your company struggles, having your company bought and ravaged by another. Having to pay much of your medical coverage, finding out the company has been cooking the logs to cheat the owner who leases back the plane to your company, having to wing your checkride training because they are too cheap to send you to Flight Safety. Getting no hard days off at all, constantly on call. Being told no paycheck is coming because we are going out of business.
What a bunch of WHINERS. It's embarassing. NJA is bad compared to what?

This is why you will soon have 2,000 resumes, and after that 3,000 resumes. NJ has only recently announced that it will be hiring. NJ is not bad compared to most other places.

 

[doh]

Reality man,

I sit nearby the schedulers. My time and experience with them with them tells me punitive scheduling doesn't happen, but I'm not in your shoes to say it doesn't feel that way to you. Most of the day they are trying to keep up with the changes and don't have the time to nitpick at people. In the evening as the operation winds down, we get calls from crews on standby asking if they're still needed. This is a good thing. Many times they aren't needed and they get shutdown asap. The reason it took the crew calling is because they're still working on other things and the focus isn't there yet. If they are still needed, they will be told "you're backing up xyz and when it departs, we'll shut you down".

You may be getting questions on maintenance gripes, but you should be getting no pushback. In fact the direction is given that unless a MM reference is available to prove something is still airworthy, they should not and cannot refuse a discrepancy. You hear aggravation in their voice because they too are understaffed and the phone never stops ringing. Escalate to the ACP or the MAB if you're etting pushed.

I'm sure there are significantly more than 3% whom never call off, fly tired, squawk mx, etc. if you're picking up aircraft that have mx issues, that's a problem too. Just because you break an airplane doesn't put you in the 3%. Most of the items are confirmed and repaired. The issues you speak dont put you in 3%. The 3% I speak of create enough waves that affect many people trying to do their jobs. Those who you agree are on a vendetta are the ones I speak of. It's probably not even 3%...and I agree the abusers are rare, but out of 2700 rare can be dozens.

If you agree that there are a select few, are there any ways to 'self police' these guys? It would seem to me that these few would actually hamper the ability for your group to attain its goals. They get the focus while you're getting beat to death on the road.

SG

Pilots don't "break" airplanes. That is negative office rhetoric of the most offensive kind. The airplane has the defect because of use or a defective part. Pilots note the discrepancy and then office people run around saying the "pilots broke the airplane!!" That in itself is subtle intimidation and false blame. It happens at my company too, and it is disgusting.

 

[realityman]

Reality man,

I sit nearby the schedulers. My time and experience with them with them tells me punitive scheduling doesn't happen, but I'm not in your shoes to say it doesn't feel that way to you. Most of the day they are trying to keep up with the changes and don't have the time to nitpick at people. In the evening as the operation winds down, we get calls from crews on standby asking if they're still needed. This is a good thing. Many times they aren't needed and they get shutdown asap. The reason it took the crew calling is because they're still working on other things and the focus isn't there yet. If they are still needed, they will be told "you're backing up xyz and when it departs, we'll shut you down".

You may be getting questions on maintenance gripes, but you should be getting no pushback. In fact the direction is given that unless a MM reference is available to prove something is still airworthy, they should not and cannot refuse a discrepancy. You hear aggravation in their voice because they too are understaffed and the phone never stops ringing. Escalate to the ACP or the MAB if you're etting pushed.

I'm sure there are significantly more than 3% whom never call off, fly tired, squawk mx, etc. if you're picking up aircraft that have mx issues, that's a problem too. Just because you break an airplane doesn't put you in the 3%. Most of the items are confirmed and repaired. The issues you speak dont put you in 3%. The 3% I speak of create enough waves that affect many people trying to do their jobs. Those who you agree are on a vendetta are the ones I speak of. It's probably not even 3%...and I agree the abusers are rare, but out of 2700 rare can be dozens.

If you agree that there are a select few, are there any ways to 'self police' these guys? It would seem to me that these few would actually hamper the ability for your group to attain its goals. They get the focus while you're getting beat to death on the road.

SG

SG,

This is where you and I must part ways. I thought we were having a good discussion, and even getting to see things from each other's perspective. But so far, I have acknowledged that there may be a few problem children amongst our ranks, but you have yet to acknowledge, even once, that there are problems coming from the company side being instigated from the top down.

I say we're getting heavy pushback from maintenance, you say not likely and I'm just misinterpreting the aggravated tone of voice. I say the intimidation factor with things like sick and fatigue calls is incredibly high, you say surely there must be a way to police our own (or the alternate: they're abusers and should be dealt with that way). Even your terminology is ingrained to side with the company. You mention about when I "break" a plane. Uh, I have NEVER broken a plane. I document discrepancies when I find a plane is broken. Maybe it's just semantics, I know you know what's going on, but it is a very subtle subconscious thing that predisposes a person to believe I actively caused the problem.

I like how you write, and it has helped me get a perspective from the other side. But you seem to simply be unable to accept what I tell you is going on. A little G4 syndrome. We used to stay at the Westin in BJC, now it's the Drury Inn. The vast majority of our markets are seeing steady, albeit slow, declines in the quality of hotels we use. The Drury Inn. Really?! But hey, like G4 says, we aren't one of those crappy jobs. Yet.

I understand that most departments are as understaffed and overworked as we are. And I'm not saying most of the problems are coming from the rank and file of B'way workers. But the issues I've brought up are real, and being perpetuated from middle management on up. I used to look forward to going to work. Now I dread it. Will I be fired for writing too many things up? Or fired for not writing something up (both of those have happened)? Fired for or disciplined for calling fatigued too many times? Or sick because the timing wasn't where the company thought it should be? The list goes on and on and on.

Thanks for a civil discourse. No matter what happens, I hope we can get things back on track so you, me, G4, and everyone else can have a great career here.

 

[Some guy]

Pilots don't "break" airplanes. That is negative office rhetoric of the most offensive kind. The airplane has the defect because of use or a defective part. Pilots note the discrepancy and then office people run around saying the "pilots broke the airplane!!" That in itself is subtle intimidation and false blame. It happens at my company too, and it is disgusting.

You are correct. That's the language that's used, but I don't think we mean to imply fault...At least I dont. I've used the language many times without much thought about how offensive it may sound. All of us repeat sayings and cliches in day to day conversation without paying attention to the real meaning.

SG

 

[Some guy]

SG,

This is where you and I must part ways. I thought we were having a good discussion, and even getting to see things from each other's perspective. But so far, I have acknowledged that there may be a few problem children amongst our ranks, but you have yet to acknowledge, even once, that there are problems coming from the company side being instigated from the top down.

I say we're getting heavy pushback from maintenance, you say not likely and I'm just misinterpreting the aggravated tone of voice. I say the intimidation factor with things like sick and fatigue calls is incredibly high, you say surely there must be a way to police our own (or the alternate: they're abusers and should be dealt with that way). Even your terminology is ingrained to side with the company. You mention about when I "break" a plane. Uh, I have NEVER broken a plane. I document discrepancies when I find a plane is broken. Maybe it's just semantics, I know you know what's going on, but it is a very subtle subconscious thing that predisposes a person to believe I actively caused the problem.

I like how you write, and it has helped me get a perspective from the other side. But you seem to simply be unable to accept what I tell you is going on. A little G4 syndrome. We used to stay at the Westin in BJC, now it's the Drury Inn. The vast majority of our markets are seeing steady, albeit slow, declines in the quality of hotels we use. The Drury Inn. Really?! But hey, like G4 says, we aren't one of those crappy jobs. Yet.

I understand that most departments are as understaffed and overworked as we are. And I'm not saying most of the problems are coming from the rank and file of B'way workers. But the issues I've brought up are real, and being perpetuated from middle management on up. I used to look forward to going to work. Now I dread it. Will I be fired for writing too many things up? Or fired for not writing something up (both of those have happened)? Fired for or disciplined for calling fatigued too many times? Or sick because the timing wasn't where the company thought it should be? The list goes on and on and on.

Thanks for a civil discourse. No matter what happens, I hope we can get things back on track so you, me, G4, and everyone else can have a great career here.

As I said in the post a few minutes ago, I didn't mean to imply you were breaking airplanes. Airplanes break and the faults are usually confirmed and repaired. I've also said I'm not in your shoes to know what is being thrown your way. That said, I can't deny what is coming at you from the top or down the ops side of the house. Even things such as hotels or crew meals Im lacking intimate knowledge about. I haven't discounted many of the things you have said because I don't know enough to speak about them. I do know less than 10 have been terminated, and a couple are back. I don't know enough about any of the cases to have an opinion. We run 180k flights per year with 2700 pilots who squawk 33k yearly deferrals and God knows how many AOG items. I have to believe that that if a couple were fired for writing something up or not writing something up, there is more to the story than we both know. We both agree there are a few out there that want to hurt OUR company.

I am somewhat sympathetic to the cause of your group. My fear is tactics by the few that could cause irreversible damage. I mentioned policing your own with these few because I would think preventing them from diluting your cause with shenanigans would be helpful to your cause. Again, I'm not in your shoes.

If you've read any of my posts from long ago you may have figured out I work in MCC. I'm not a controller, but I used to be. I still work with them side by side. We are not permitted to not accept a discrepancy. We get agitated when new rules are put in place such as this: We cannot ask you to "reboot" an aircraft because there is no procedure for it. Going black and starting the checklist over doesn't count. These aircraft are run by computers and many times rebooting fixes the problem. Pulling and resetting a circuit breaker to reset a system also fixes many faults. Even though these practices were done successfully for many many years before the rule was in place, it can no longer be done. I know there are numerous arguments on your side for this and I've heard them all. I'm sure there may be pushback from these types of things, but we cannot tell you not to squawk it. We also ask for more pictures not because we don't believe you, but sometimes the visual aide helps us understand what you're asking of us. Smoking rivets...every aircraft in the world has smoking rivets. But I know the argument there too...they could be unsafe! Erosion tape with a corner peeling? That's unsafe too. And these things take our time away from us taking care of airplanes that are truly having problems. As I've said call your ACP or the MAB for escalation. They can bitch, moan, and complain, but if anyone ever tells you to not write something up, pm me with a name because we cannot do that. I've heard on many occasions that the equipment you fly is actually maintained well.

Agree or disagree makes no difference. We're both in this together. I too enjoy the dialogue and I learn more with every posting. I also can't wait for everyone to be happy again, but I think it will be a couple years before that happens.

SG

 

[Willy21]

Erosion tape that is peeling is in the MEL. Somebody above my pay level must have thought it should be there. Are you asking me to not report something that should be MEL'd?

 

[Some guy]

Erosion tape that is peeling is in the MEL. Somebody above my pay level must have thought it should be there. Are you asking me to not report something that should be MEL'd?

Here we go. No I am not. As far as I know, it's AOG until the loose part is cut off or its removed. Once that is done it can be deferred. I'd have to check the books to verify this. It was an example to make a point.

Waiting for the peeling erosion tape is unsafe argument in 3, 2, 1...

SG

 

[Willy21]

I'm not saying its unsafe. It's in the MEL, if I get ramped and a FED asks me why peeling erosion tape isn't documented I get violated. So if I see it peeling it gets written up. That is a bad example.

 

[G4dude]

PS-You can quit with the condescending attitude. Newsflash buddy, most of us have had plenty of jobs in the "outside world". Been ground up in the shredder of those crappy jobs you mention. Which is exactly why I can see the trend of where we're headed. Good sales, a growing company, and new planes does not equate to a good job.

I just keep wondering about horror stories about the company I fly for, when I haven't heard any of them. I've been here a long time, and am not some outsider being told about some big company called NetJets which does these bad things. As for the other crappy jobs, they comprise a lot of the REAL world out there, and the real world needs to be considered when talking about how bad our jobs are. That's all.

 

[T-1GUY]

You never here about any horror stories at Nutjets, and yet you live on these boards? Try reading someones post once in awhile. This thread is full of negative stories that happen everyday at YOUR place of work. You truly are uniformed,

 

[G4dude]

You never here about any horror stories at Nutjets, and yet you live on these boards? Try reading someones post once in awhile. This thread is full of negative stories that happen everyday at YOUR place of work. You truly are uniformed,

My point is, I shouldn't need to hear about them on these boards. I fly for the company! None of my colleagues talk about, or apparently know, about this stuff. If these stories are true, or at least the whole story. I have heard some stories about some pilots who really need to be fired.

 

[Sky Captain]

I ask the questions I ask so I can see perspective from a different point of view. Your latest post helps me understand (a little) the irritation that is out there. From my point of view, there have been a select few over the years that have caused many problems. These problems have been largely ignored until the last year. If the company is terminating without first trying discipline, then yes there is a problem.

When a new temp ACP has been at the desk for a few weeks, I'll ask him what he thinks. I always get the same response..."I had no idea". They see those of us at the center of the operation do not treat anyone on the road any different from anyone else. They see some of the ridiculousness that we've been seeing for years and they're stunned. Again, it's a small number that cause the problems and maybe (hopefully) you haven't experienced it. These are the guys that turn your 10 hour day into 14 because you're their recovery.

Those of us sitting at the core of the operation can scroll through IJet and usually pinpoint where we're going to have problems based solely on the names assigned to a tail. That's a problem. For the other 97% who bust their asses every day, thank you. We know you're tired.

SG

Oh... You are a management guy. Now your first posts where I thought you were in HR makes sense.

Glad u agree erosion tape coming off the vertical tail is an AOG item. Now, will you tell the CMH CPs that a patch coming off the tail deice boots should also be an AOG instead of a MEL.