NJA 1st QTR Earnings

[CA1900]

Yep... and four years later, I'd still be driving 200 miles to a base I didn't want in the first place, instead of living on the other side of the country where I'm happy!

 

[wacoflyr]

Ya know, we have our own gossip and so on, but I have to say I find NJ gossip endlessly entertaining. Keep it up!

 

[Willy21]

Large families bring many sources of free entertainment. But make no mistake, we know how to pull together when we need to.

 

[gunfyter]

Its like a Reality TV series....

 

[imacdog]

Still waiting on that list, Raj.

 

[rajflyboy]

Still waiting on that list, Raj.

What List?

 

[imacdog]

The list of things the pilots gave away to the company. The list of reasons why IBB was such a loss for the pilot group. The list I keep asking for every single time you make such a remark. That is what I am still waiting for.

 

[rajflyboy]

The list of things the pilots gave away to the company. The list of reasons why IBB was such a loss for the pilot group. The list I keep asking for every single time you make such a remark. That is what I am still waiting for.

We have already hashed that out over and over.

 

[imacdog]

Actually we haven't. Every single time I've asked for specific reasons why the IBB was a failure for the pilots, you've conveniently forgotten to answer.

 

[BentOver]

He's never given one solid piece of proof as to why IBB was a failure. All along, everyone who's voted for it has been very happy with their decision. Yet to meet a person who didn't like their vote outcome.

And the people it was aimed at (SIC's) LIKE MYSELF. Are very happy that it passed.

His arguements hold no merit when the people's lives it was meant to improve, and the people who voted for it, are happy they did vote for it.

He'll argue that it created furloughs. BUT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE FURLOUGHED AND VOTED YES ARE STILL HAPPY THEY VOTED YES. INCLUDING MYSELF. I'd rather be furloughed and come back to an IBB improved contract, than be furloughed and come back to the '05 crap the SIC's had before. Correction, I wouldn't come back to a pre-IBB Netjets. To top that off, I would rather be furloughed and come back to an IBB contract than to have never been furloughed and be making peanuts and commuting 5 hrs. to the nearest base. Or trying to negotiate a contract in these economic times.

 

[rajflyboy]

He's never given one solid piece of proof as to why IBB was a failure. All along, everyone who's voted for it has been very happy with their decision. Yet to meet a person who didn't like their vote outcome.

And the people it was aimed at (SIC's) LIKE MYSELF. Are very happy that it passed.

His arguements hold no merit when the people's lives it was meant to improve, and the people who voted for it, are happy they did vote for it.

He'll argue that it created furloughs. BUT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE FURLOUGHED AND VOTED YES ARE STILL HAPPY THEY VOTED YES. INCLUDING MYSELF. I'd rather be furloughed and come back to an IBB improved contract, than be furloughed and come back to the '05 crap the SIC's had before. Correction, I wouldn't come back to a pre-IBB Netjets. To top that off, I would rather be furloughed and come back to an IBB contract than to have never been furloughed and be making peanuts and commuting 5 hrs. to the nearest base. Or trying to negotiate a contract in these economic times.

So.. screw up the good part of the contract that was worked hard for ... ?? Yeah thats a great idea. You had no patience at all.

 

[rajflyboy]

Actually we haven't. Every single time I've asked for specific reasons why the IBB was a failure for the pilots, you've conveniently forgotten to answer.

Well

Lets start with the one that SIC's complain about the most. The NJI merger. That was my #1 reason for voting against IBB.

 

[imacdog]

I don't know if I've seen a single compaint about the NJI merger from an NJA SIC on this board, nor do I remember seeing any on the union board. In fact, bringing the NJI flying in-house was a huge win for scope. Next please.

 

[Pervis]

I don't know if I've seen a single compaint about the NJI merger from an NJA SIC on this board, nor do I remember seeing any on the union board. In fact, bringing the NJI flying in-house was a huge win for scope. Next please.

Ask every SIC still actively employed at NJA, not to mention a bunch of the PICs, how everyone feels about all the junior PICs upgraded at NJI before the integration. That was an oversight we should have anticipated, and probably would have had we not been in such a big hurry to pass IBB. There are a number of other areas that were poorly worded as well, or omitted from the '05 agreement, and they weren't to the pilot's advanatge.

 

[imacdog]

Ah yes another "numerous givebacks" yet no solid examples. How intriguing and convincing. Of course, there must exist absolutely no possiblity whatsoever that the pilots understood the tradeoffs and decided the overall change was a net gain.

In the end of all this the early NJI upgrades represent the removal of a very small number of upgrade slots that would have been available to the pilot group. With a new long-range aircraft type coming into the mix, the argument becomes one more of emotions than logic. Of course we could talk about the irrational thoughts of some pilots, such as not running DOH integration, but as mentioned, they were irrational.

 

[Pervis]

Ah yes another "numerous givebacks" yet no solid examples. How intriguing and convincing. Of course, there must exist absolutely no possiblity whatsoever that the pilots understood the tradeoffs and decided the overall change was a net gain.

In the end of all this the early NJI upgrades represent the removal of a very small number of upgrade slots that would have been available to the pilot group. With a new long-range aircraft type coming into the mix, the argument becomes one more of emotions than logic. Of course we could talk about the irrational thoughts of some pilots, such as not running DOH integration, but as mentioned, they were irrational.

There is no point in listing all the shortfalls of IBB as we are 4 years into it. There were indeed some good points to it as well. In hindsight, based upon the current economic environment we live in, we are clearly better off with IBB. However, lots of language should have been added/clarified and could have been had we not been in such a hurry.

The massive GIV upgrade began in earnest after IBB. The slots negotiated for NJA pilots were filled per the contract, with one of three PIC slots going to NJA PICs, and SIC slots as well. But that was left seat to left seat, or right to right. The blatant upgrade after the agreement was negotiated and signed was done without regard to seniority. That was a huge oversight. There are quite a number if PICs and SICs senior to the GIV PICs. The most junior GIV PIC was hired in March 2006. You don't have a problem with that?

If you think the GIVs won't suddenly start going into disposal when/if Globals start arriving, you are sorely misguided. Want to bet the majority of Global pilots will be former NJI pilots? We need to include language that ANY new equipment will be open to the entire seniority list for those not seat locked. Another huge oversight.

 

[Willy21]

The integration problems that some people have complained about did not start with IBB. IBB just exposed how big the NJA/NJI issue really was. If you want to know where the issue started, look back into the 1990s when NJI was first formed. This is where the pilots of NetJets let the camel's nose into the tent. The problems with upgrades and integration is the price that is beign paid, which is the downside to the IBB for some, for letting the flying go to another certificate in the first place. I will agree with you that it is a bigger price than what should have to be paid, but "it is what it is."

Fast forward to today and there is another camel trying to make it's way into the tent. It's name is EJM/selloffs. What are the NetJets pilots going to do this time?

Understand what is behind us and focus your attention to the present/future. Maybe we can keep from recreating this mess ten years from now.

 

[imacdog]

Yes I realize that there are NJI captains that would not be captains had the G's always been with the NJA seniority list. But guess what - they haven't been! While the damage has been done, the integration prevented further damage by putting the flying into one seniority list.

 

[BentOver]

"In hindsight, based upon the current economic environment we live in, we are clearly better off with IBB."

And there it is... Case closed.


For the record, I will be willing to bet that there are much more pressing issues on the mind of SIC's than the NJI upgrades issue. Personally, I've yet to talk to an SIC who was very upset about the upgrades of NJI SIC's.. In reality, there would have been no way an NJA SIC would have had the opportunity to upgrade to a GIV....Any upgrades would have went to current NJA PIC's.. It's the PIC's who are upset because they did not get a chance to upgrade from their X to their GIV.

If I recall, there wasn't exactly a plethora of upgrade chances since atleast 2007.

 

[Pervis]

Bent, the ratio of PIC to SIC was about the same across every fleet until the massive GIV upgades post IBB. Currently, there are over 100 PICs and less than 20 SICs in the GIV, or nearly 6:1. No other fleet has that imballance, even the 680, which took a huge hit in the furlough.

Every single SIC I see on the road or recurrent is not happy with that. The integration language could have simply included bypass pay like days of old. Then it wouldn't have mattered how many were upgaded out of seniority. The difference in salary amounts to tens of thousands each and every year.

I could care less if I ever fly a Gulfstream. The fact that seniority means less and less is what bothers me, as it should you. It is done though, and until we negotiate a new CBA, we'll have to live with it.

The lesson is to read every section very carefully and consider the "what if" factor far more than in times past. Pay and basing were mighty big carrots, and made it easy for many to overlook other shortcomings in the agreement. The sad part is the basing situation would have changed anyway. Did you know that 122 pilots came to get their free type rating in 2006 and quit? Do you think the company could have afforded to keep that up? It costs nothing to provide the current basing scheme, other than the fact management knew it was something we wanted very badly.

 

[BentOver]

I agree in that of course they wouldn't like NJI SIC's upgrading, but do NJA SIC's steam over it day in and day out.? Haven't seen one sign of that..

What I disagree with, concerning RAJ, is that all of us yes voters are now feeling remourse for doing so. That is simply not the case. I, and a huge majority seem very happy with the vote outcome.

Could IBB have been better? Of course it could have. Any contract negotiation can tilt more towards one side or the other.

Was I ever concerned about who upgraded at NJI vs. being able to drive 10 minutes to work and make a liveable wage right off the bat. Not at all. Now if those who voted for the '05 contract would have had the foresight to realize that creating a "B" scale basing system and pay disparity would produce negative results. Those of us who voted yes on IBB COULD HAVE read more into other sections of the IBB contract. But since the huge disparity exhisted, a large majority of us focussed in on basing and pay vs. what other sections could have gotten more attention. LESSONED LEARNED..DON'T VOTE FOR A CBA THAT CREATES HUGE "B" SCALES. AND THEN BRAG ABOUT HOW TOUGH EVERYONE WAS DURING '05. AND THEN EXPECT THOSE POST '05 TO FOCUS ON ANYTHING EXCEPT WHAT VASTLY IMPROVES THEIR OWN QOL. (not pointing fingers, just in general.)

NJA hasn't had a single upgrade since 2008+/-.... no NJA SIC would have directly benefitted from the NJI merger even if they didn't upgrade those SIC's early. It stings morally, but it would not have enabled any NJA SIC's to upgrade to even a Beechjet.

What it does effect is those that may have been able to move over to a GIV. Maybe not yourself, but some are bitter that they didn't get a chance to move from an NJA a/c to a GIV. But they certainly shouldn't be NJA SIC's. They would not have had the opportunity either way.

 

[imacdog]

Additionally, the strong pilot-friendly downgrade language in the contract is preventing the company from downgrading a very significant number of PICs.

 

[fischman]

IBB was a good thing. I voted yes for it, and I'd do it again.

It is easy to vote "no" on everything and say "I told you so" whenever someone cries foul.

It takes courage to vote yes.

 

[G4dude]

I don't know if I've seen a single compaint about the NJI merger from an NJA SIC on this board, nor do I remember seeing any on the union board. In fact, bringing the NJI flying in-house was a huge win for scope. Next please.

No complaints? I am definitely surprised. Pleasantly surprised.

 

[G4dude]

There is no point in listing all the shortfalls of IBB as we are 4 years into it. There were indeed some good points to it as well. In hindsight, based upon the current economic environment we live in, we are clearly better off with IBB. However, lots of language should have been added/clarified and could have been had we not been in such a hurry.

The massive GIV upgrade began in earnest after IBB. The slots negotiated for NJA pilots were filled per the contract, with one of three PIC slots going to NJA PICs, and SIC slots as well. But that was left seat to left seat, or right to right. The blatant upgrade after the agreement was negotiated and signed was done without regard to seniority. That was a huge oversight. There are quite a number if PICs and SICs senior to the GIV PICs. The most junior GIV PIC was hired in March 2006. You don't have a problem with that?

If you think the GIVs won't suddenly start going into disposal when/if Globals start arriving, you are sorely misguided. Want to bet the majority of Global pilots will be former NJI pilots? We need to include language that ANY new equipment will be open to the entire seniority list for those not seat locked. Another huge oversight.

I talked with a senior NJA guy, and he said, basically, that hiring into the Global will be DOH from the seniority list subject to seat lock considerations and stuff. Do you have information to the contrary?

 

[G4dude]

Yes I realize that there are NJI captains that would not be captains had the G's always been with the NJA seniority list. But guess what - they haven't been! While the damage has been done, the integration prevented further damage by putting the flying into one seniority list.

I agree.

 

[rajflyboy]

I talked with a senior NJA guy, and he said, basically, that hiring into the Global will be DOH from the seniority list subject to seat lock considerations and stuff. Do you have information to the contrary?

Jury is still out on this. We will find out the truth this spring.

 

[Pervis]

G, from one senior management type I heard seniority based as they know the can of worms a displacement bid would be real nasty. Then, from another senior management type in recurrent, it will be a combination. Based upon the total lack of cooperation and communication I will assume the worst and hope for the best.

 

[G4dude]

G, from one senior management type I heard seniority based as they know the can of worms a displacement bid would be real nasty. Then, from another senior management type in recurrent, it will be a combination. Based upon the total lack of cooperation and communication I will assume the worst and hope for the best.

Same here. I am surprised, however, that there seems to be confusion at the office about how Global staffing will be accomplished. My source is a senior A guy who came over the Gs several years ago, is a PIC, and is not management.

 

[G4dude]

Bent, the ratio of PIC to SIC was about the same across every fleet until the massive GIV upgades post IBB. Currently, there are over 100 PICs and less than 20 SICs in the GIV, or nearly 6:1. No other fleet has that imballance, even the 680, which took a huge hit in the furlough.

Every single SIC I see on the road or recurrent is not happy with that. The integration language could have simply included bypass pay like days of old. Then it wouldn't have mattered how many were upgaded out of seniority. The difference in salary amounts to tens of thousands each and every year.

I could care less if I ever fly a Gulfstream. The fact that seniority means less and less is what bothers me, as it should you. It is done though, and until we negotiate a new CBA, we'll have to live with it.

The lesson is to read every section very carefully and consider the "what if" factor far more than in times past. Pay and basing were mighty big carrots, and made it easy for many to overlook other shortcomings in the agreement. The sad part is the basing situation would have changed anyway. Did you know that 122 pilots came to get their free type rating in 2006 and quit? Do you think the company could have afforded to keep that up? It costs nothing to provide the current basing scheme, other than the fact management knew it was something we wanted very badly.

My understanding about G staffing is that we need more PICs because we tend to need quite a few crews all over the world to swap and continue the long trips. I have been part of several trips that tied up 3 or 4 crews at the same time, basically, between resting, flying, and standing by waiting in the hotel for our arrival. Some of these round the world trips are very complicated.