NJA 1st QTR Earnings

[FLYLOW22]

I see that no one wanted to touch this. I figured that.

IBB was a total CRAP SANDWICH

Just go ahead and admit that right now.

IBB may have elevated us to crap, but we were all wading is juicy blue room crap prior to that.

You can't get it all at once.

Section 6 will return.

 

[imacdog]

I see that no one wanted to touch this. I figured that.

IBB was a total CRAP SANDWICH

Just go ahead and admit that right now.

Basically because it's the same tired crap coming from you.

 

[CA1900]

IBB was a total CRAP SANDWICH

Just go ahead and admit that right now.

I'll touch it.

My pay went up 45%. I got the ability to bid an 18-day fixed schedule (vs. the old reserve schedule). I got 20 times the basing choices and the ability to switch bases without finding someone in my fleet/seat willing to swap (as was the case under the 05 contract). All after-midnights pay double (even if "realistically scheduled"). And so on.

You may not have seen the benefit many of us did, but it wasn't a "crap sandwich" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[rajflyboy]

Funny thing is

IBB was rushed. SIC's could have received better pay and bennies without all the negatives if we would have just voted IBB down and been patient for another better contract.

 

[imacdog]

Fortunately the vast majority of NJA pilots don't agree with you. If IBB hadn't passed, we be in section 6 about now, right? Yeah, good luck getting that huge raise now.

 

[rajflyboy]

Fortunately the vast majority of NJA pilots don't agree with you. If IBB hadn't passed, we be in section 6 about now, right? Yeah, good luck getting that huge raise now.

Thats total BS

IBB was rushed. If it was done properly the problem areas would have been fixed without giving up the kitchen sink in other areas.

but you people that thought IBB was great have to live with the BS now. I voted no and I will laugh at you now when you complain about it. You voted for it and you got it now. So live with it.

 

[BentOver]

Disagree..Strongly disagree...

If NJASAP were to enter negotiations in 2010 (or whenever the 2005 CBA was up) the pilots would be eating a crap sandwhich right now..You think the current union busting propoganda is bad now....Imagine how much the company would be crying poor if they entered negotiations after the worst market disaster since the Great Depression.....

IBB 2007 not only made NJA affordable for almost half the seniority list, it also righted a few wrongs done by the "yes" votes for the 2005 CBS..Namely a "B" scale basing system... After IBB that basing scale went to atleast a high B+ or A-......

2005 CBA was deemed a victory for the pilot group..(I know I was reminded of it weekly) but there were and still are many improvements which can be made, luckily IBB attempted to rectify some of those...

 

[imacdog]

You voted for it and you got it now. So live with it.

I was happily living with it (and so were the captains I was flying with) until I got furloughed. What's the biggest thing you whine about now, the fatigue report?

 

[CA1900]

If NJASAP were to enter negotiations in 2010 (or whenever the 2005 CBA was up) the pilots would be eating a crap sandwhich right now.

Had IBB not passed, it was made clear by both sides that we'd simply wait until the next Section 6 to resume negotiations. Well, the 2005 contract's amendable date was November 21, 2010 -- firmly in the regime of that slimeball Sokol, and well into our furlough. He'd have dragged out the negotiations for years, leaving us at 2005 pay and basing, and undoubtedly using our furloughees as hostages (and threatening more).

Assuming it got done by 2013, an FO here would be over $75,000 behind, with many driving several hours to get to work. (In my case, right past a busy international airport.)

I'd rather we enter Section 6 where we are now, than where we were in 2007.

 

[rajflyboy]

Well

If you believe that was the last and final chance for a contract in IBB then I guess you would have botched the 05 deal. That took patience.

Why do you think we were told this is the last and final deal?

Nieve. Very Nieve.

 

[CA1900]

Since neither of us has any evidence of our respective hypotheticals, we'll just have to disagree, then. IBB and Section 6 bargaining are different animals. I'll take the word of the guys who were actually in the room negotiating.

And the word is "naïve."

 

[BentOver]

IBB was not a contract negotiation in the usual sense..... It was a mid-term improvement. I assume to keep so many SIC's from leaving so soon. ( I belive the majors were hiring then?)

There was no take it or leave it...It was a "here's a few improvements we think may increase the quality of life, especially for the junior guys"..... Sure we could have turned it down and "hope" for something better... like a new contract in 2010 with assmunch Sokol at the helm and a vastly deteriorating economy..... I'm sure that would have worked out well for everyone..Especially the 6-8 year SIC's....


Going forward I think negotiations should take the theory that :

1) Upgrades will not happen. The contract has to be written assuming that everyone is going to be in their seat for a long time.

2) There will be a downturn in the economy again. Furloughs will always be on the backburner at any hint of a recession. Language has to be geared towards ebbs and flows in the business..

I'm sick of the same old.."when we wrote it we weren't thinking of furloughs.." Or "upgrades were at 2-3 years when it was written" That thought process has never lasted more than a few years before crap hits the fan..

 

[rajflyboy]

Even the current pilot leadership says that parts of the IBB were rushed.

This is from the current leadership who I must say has done a good job handling everything that has come our way in the last year or so.

 

[rajflyboy]

Bent Over

Why would IBB have been negotiated in 2010? Thats insane. It would have been negotiated in 2007. If it would have been voted down (as it should have been) the negotiations would have continued.

You guys were fooled and those same people left you and went to the other side of the table.

Oh well. We have to live with the bs that it is. I'm just happy you can't sign my name as a supporter of the garbage.

I don't want to here any more crying about how an NJI guy is a captain and I'm not bullcrap. Unless you actually voted no for IBB.

 

[imacdog]

Ah, one of the last holdouts of the 606 club. You're such as bad ass.

 

[FLYLOW22]

What's a nieve? Is that a rash?

 

[rajflyboy]

What's a nieve? Is that a rash?

neive naive whatever

thats what you were

 

[glasspilot]

I don't want to here any more crying about how an NJI guy is a captain and I'm not bullcrap. Unless you actually voted no for IBB.

As long as we're picking on spelling, it's "hear".

 

[FLYLOW22]

What's a raj anyway?

Is that like a rash??

 

[realityman]

Bent Over

Why would IBB have been negotiated in 2010? Thats insane. It would have been negotiated in 2007. If it would have been voted down (as it should have been) the negotiations would have continued.

You guys were fooled and those same people left you and went to the other side of the table.

Oh well. We have to live with the bs that it is. I'm just happy you can't sign my name as a supporter of the garbage.

I don't want to here any more crying about how an NJI guy is a captain and I'm not bullcrap. Unless you actually voted no for IBB.

First off, IBB would NOT have been what would've taken place in 2010. We would have entered section 6 negotiations. An entirely different animal and set of rules for both sides to play by. Sorry, it's not just semantics. There is a big difference in the playing field between the two.

As for the rest, well, I would agree that there is room for improvement on a lot of fronts. But why you seem to think we would have had a better go of it if we had passed on IBB and waited until 2010 is beyond me. Sure, we couldn't predict the future and see the huge economic downturn, or the latest crazy change of management, but just look at the numbers! If we had passed on IBB, how much more would we have had to ask for in 2010 just to get back the money we passed on in IBB? And there was a nice signing bonus too, no? And even though we couldn't predict it, as we now see, we would have been trying to get these huge increases for ourselves during one of the worst economic times we've seen, and with an intransigent management team in place to boot!

As for doing it like 2005, I would suggest taking off the rose-colored glasses you appear to be viewing history through. Do you remember our supposed "line in the sand"? It was the 6 S's. So, with supposedly everything going our way in '05, how many of those did we accomplish? Did we actually achieve a six figure salary at year 5 (captains)? How about single carrier? Did we get everything we wanted with scope? As I recall, we fell short of most of our goals. And that was with what we now know was a "weak" management team (sorry, but Santulli and Boisture didn't play hardball anywhere near what they could have). How would it have gone with this team?

IBB actually reached most of our original goals, and did it without things becoming contentious.

As for the downsides of IBB, I agree there are some. But it has to be put in context. For starters, do you know of ANY contract ANYWHERE that is perfect? Is there any labor group you know of where the employees say, "Naw, this contract is perfect. Let's just skip negotiating this time and see if we can just get this thing extended as is."? I think this is important because with nearly 3000 pilots in our US operation, all type-A's, and with differing priorities in life, we simply will NEVER see a contract that makes everyone happy.

Also, regardless of whether we are doing IBB or section 6, it's important to remember that they are NEGOTIATIONS. No way will we EVER get everything we want because the company wants things too (some of which we'd prefer they don't have), and we will have to give them some of what they want in order to get some of what we want. You can look at it as win-win for both sides or lose-lose for both sides, but either way, there will be give and take.

Obviously IBB didn't come close to living up to what you thought it should be. But it was voted in by an overwhelming majority, and I think most folks are happy with it. As a group, I don't believe we have buyer's remorse so much as we continue to identify areas that need improvement so we can work towards making it better on the next round of negotiations. Pointing out shortcomings doesn't mean most of us feel it's a bad deal. I have personally pointed out areas that I feel need fixing, and I hope we work on them next time around. But when I look at the overall picture of where I am now with IBB vs. where I would be if still on the '05 contract, or worse, had to negotiate in 2010, I am fairly certain I am much better off with IBB.

And don't mistake hating the fact that the company is trying to utilize loopholes in the contract to bone us, with people disliking the current contract. Good lawyers will always find loopholes no matter how good the contract.

Just remember that we will have to give in order to get. For the things you don't like about the IBB contract, ask yourself what you would have been willing to give the company in order to have those things go your way.

Sorry about the long post. Hard to get across certain ideas in a few sentences. (at least for me)