Nicolau Award

[NuGuy]

Nu, you don't get a mulligan, the time for working things out was prior to arbitration. The West is absolutely in the right to expect the award to be honored in its entirety. You don't get to throw a tantrum, just because you're a bigger group, and expect the smaller group to make concessions to an abusive majority.

Heyas,

Well, that might be true in some perfect universe, but in fact, the east DID get to throw a tantrum, exactly because they were the bigger group, and they've gotten away with it up until this point.

In the meantime, their airline, for both east and west, is circling the crapper, because neither side felt like moving off their position.

It remains to be seen if, indeed, they're forced to do anything.

So yea, in a perfect world, judges and aribitrators are always right and fair, and people always play by the rules, and my flautus would always smell like cinammon buns and rainbows. Then we could all stand on our honor and principals and expect that fair play always ends up with the best result.

But you and I know this isn't a perfect world.

In this case, more pragmatic people might want to take charge of the situation. A majority of pissed off employees can do an awful lot to sink an airline out of spite....then what have you won? A pyrrhic victory, at best.

Nu

 

[Green]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

What a stupid post....

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Heyas,

Well, that might be true in some perfect universe, but in fact, the east DID get to throw a tantrum, exactly because they were the bigger group, and they've gotten away with it up until this point.

In the meantime, their airline, for both east and west, is circling the crapper, because neither side felt like moving off their position.

It remains to be seen if, indeed, they're forced to do anything.

So yea, in a perfect world, judges and aribitrators are always right and fair, and people always play by the rules, and my flautus would always smell like cinammon buns and rainbows. Then we could all stand on our honor and principals and expect that fair play always ends up with the best result.

But you and I know this isn't a perfect world.

In this case, more pragmatic people might want to take charge of the situation. A majority of pissed off employees can do an awful lot to sink an airline out of spite....then what have you won? A pyrrhic victory, at best.

Nu

Do you really believe the airline is circling the crapper because of this dispute between pilots? Isn't that a bit of a "pilot-centric" view of the world? The company has no intentions of deviating from the Nic list. They said so in federal court a few weeks ago. They're perfectly happy to exploit this situation to their advantage and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

In the absence of age 65, the junior east guys would be gaining upgrades from this situation. As it is, they're just stagnating (oh, and I guess preventing the big boogeyman they've created in their minds of hundreds of west guys bidding into PHL senior to them). The appeal process will be history by the time significant retirements kick in again and there will be a new union and/or a new contract by then so all the delay will be for naught. Pretty big $ to pay for an emotional arguement.

What's up with your fascination with flatulence?

 

[NuGuy]

What's up with your fascination with flatulence?

You're kidding, right? We're both on a message board that consists, intellectually speaking, of nothing but.

Nu

 

[eaglesview]

Do you really believe the airline is circling the crapper because of this dispute between pilots? Isn't that a bit of a "pilot-centric" view of the world? The company has no intentions of deviating from the Nic list. They said so in federal court a few weeks ago. They're perfectly happy to exploit this situation to their advantage and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

In the absence of age 65, the junior east guys would be gaining upgrades from this situation. As it is, they're just stagnating (oh, and I guess preventing the big boogeyman they've created in their minds of hundreds of west guys bidding into PHL senior to them). What's up with your fascination with flatulence?

You broke the code. The fact is, emotions aside, the east will make more in upgrades than any contract provide them with the nic. That's just simple mathematics. I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

 

[Green]

You broke the code. The fact is, emotions aside, the east will make more in upgrades than any contract provide them with the nic. That's just simple mathematics. I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

Your assumptions are incorrect. East narrowbody captains top out at approximately 125/hr. Assuming a new contract is industry standard then we will see top of scale fo's at 125 hour. Then you have to consider that a junior east ca gets paid guarantee while as a senior fo he/she could credit much higher. Throw in substantially more vacation, higher retirement contribution, better work rules, etc and it's a no-brainer. Your logic doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's obvious the east is running on emotion.

The east contract is so bad you would all be better off as senior FO's than junior Captains....As you said, "that's just simple mathematics."

 

[Thebadcat1313]

You broke the code. The fact is, emotions aside, the east will make more in upgrades than any contract provide them with the nic. That's just simple mathematics. I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

So do you think there would be no retirements on the west in the absence of age 65? That rule affected both sides of the operation. Here's a few stats for you:

1) Since the merger in 2005, there were over 125 west retirements prior to age 60 being changed.

2) There have since been 140 downgrades on the west. So there are presently 260+/- fewer west captains than there were in 2005. That's a reduction of around 30% of west captain jobs.

3) Total flying that transitions through west hubs since then has decreased only about 8%. (Yeah, I know, 22% reduction in Vegas, but that's a small portion of west flying. PHX hasn't decreased that much). So, there has been a 30% reduction in west captain jobs with only an 8% reduction in flying.

4) There are 8000 block-hours per month of flying that transitions through LAS and PHX that is currently being flown by east aircraft/crews. This is flying that used to be done by west aircraft/crews.

5) West captains make, on average $20 more per hour. West F/O's make, on average, $5 per hour more. The west contract has superior work rules and benefits across the board.

Is it any wonder why the company has transferred west flying to east crews? East does it cheaper, plain and simple. If you east guys want to be proud of that, fine, but you've already become another chapter in "Flying the Line III".

This is classic whipsaw, folks. The greed and entitlement mentality of some on the east has played right into the company's hands.

Now, the company has it's sights on the E-190 and associated east crews. They can park, sell or lease those aircraft and furlough accordingly. The whipsaw is about to swing the other way. I hate to see anyone lose their job, but USAPA has stupidly put all pilots of US Airways in harms way. For what? A losing attempt to thwart an agreed upon arbitration. Sickening.

 

[johnnyb]

Your assumptions are incorrect.East narrowbody captains top out at approximately 125/hr. Assuming a new contract is industry standard then we will see top of scale fo's at 125 hour.

Please name all airlines paying $125 per hour to 737 F/O's ( except SWA ).

 

[formerdal]

Please name all airlines paying $125 per hour to 737 F/O's ( except SWA ).

He never said 737 FO. Airways operates A330's and 767's dont they??

 

[eaglesview]

So do you think there would be no retirements on the west in the absence of age 65? That rule affected both sides of the operation. Here's a few stats for you:

1) Since the merger in 2005, there were over 125 west retirements prior to age 60 being changed.

2) There have since been 140 downgrades on the west. So there are presently 260+/- fewer west captains than there were in 2005. That's a reduction of around 30% of west captain jobs.

3) Total flying that transitions through west hubs since then has decreased only about 8%. (Yeah, I know, 22% reduction in Vegas, but that's a small portion of west flying. PHX hasn't decreased that much). So, there has been a 30% reduction in west captain jobs with only an 8% reduction in flying.

4) There are 8000 block-hours per month of flying that transitions through LAS and PHX that is currently being flown by east aircraft/crews. This is flying that used to be done by west aircraft/crews.

5) West captains make, on average $20 more per hour. West F/O's make, on average, $5 per hour more. The west contract has superior work rules and benefits across the board.

Is it any wonder why the company has transferred west flying to east crews? East does it cheaper, plain and simple. If you east guys want to be proud of that, fine, but you've already become another chapter in "Flying the Line III".

This is classic whipsaw, folks. The greed and entitlement mentality of some on the east has played right into the company's hands.

Now, the company has it's sights on the E-190 and associated east crews. They can park, sell or lease those aircraft and furlough accordingly. The whipsaw is about to swing the other way. I hate to see anyone lose their job, but USAPA has stupidly put all pilots of US Airways in harms way. For what? A losing attempt to thwart an agreed upon arbitration. Sickening.

Nice long response. None of which changes the fact of my post.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

Then why do you keep trying to justify their actions? Actually, I know why. Just because you think DOH is what their entitled to you think that justifies anything. Good thing there's very few like you in the industry outside of US Air (East).

 

[FDJ2]

Heyas,

In the meantime, their airline, for both east and west, is circling the crapper, because neither side felt like moving off their position.

Nu, why would the west pilots strike a bargain with a pilot group that doesn't honor its committments? I wouldn't.

There's a huge credibility problem, the east pilots have acted more like an unprincipled mob than a professional group that can be trusted to keep their word.

 

[Grandpa +65]

Retired American Pilot Saved In a Horse-Back Riding Mishap

A wealthy retired American Airlines pilot narrowly escaped serious injury recently when he attempted horse-back riding with no prior experience.

He mounted the horse, unassisted, and the horse immediately began moving. As it galloped along at a steady and rhythmic pace, the pilot began slipping sideways from the saddle.

Although attempting to grab the horse's mane he could not get a firm grip. He then threw his arms around the horse's neck but continued to slide down the side of the horse. The horse loped along, seemingly oblivious to its slipping rider. Finally, losing his grip, he attempted to leap away from the horse and throw himself to safety. His foot became entangled in the stirrup, and he was at the mercy of the horses pounding hooves as his head and upper body repeatedly struck the ground. Moments away from unconsciousness and probable death, to his great fortune a retired USAirways pilot, working as a greeter at Wal-Mart to supplement his meager retirement, observed the situation and quickly unplugged the horse.

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Nice long response. None of which changes the fact of my post.

The company will need to be upgrading in order for the east to enjoy the benefits you speak of. In light of age 65 and the recession, they are stagnating and will continue to do so for a few years, at which point the appeal will be history. In the end, they will have screwed themselves out of 4 or 5 years of a 17% - 27% pay raise and better work rules for nothing.