Nicolau Award

[FR8mastr]

The damage caused by the East's withdrawal from contract negotiations in 2007 will last the rest of our careers. Someday even you may realize where the blame lies.

That goes right back to the concessionary contract. Did you look at the work rule changes the company wanted in order to give you your 3% raise?
My guess is there was something else you would get with a contract that made all other things irrelevant.

 

[FR8mastr]

Interesting choice of words and sort of ties in with some recent and rather nasty PM's recently exchanged between east pilots and west on another webboard. Is this another veiled threat from the angry FO club ?? Or am I taking this out of context ??? Care to clarify what exactly is meant by the phrase "the price you will pay ???? " I'm sure we would all like to know.

PHXFLYR

Threat?? you really need to put down the Clancy novels. The contract the company offered was completely unacceptable, the raise promised would not get us to industry standard and the work rules got even worse. Working under LOA 93 is bad, but these changes would make all of our lives hell.

As far as the angry FO club, seems to me especially on these boards, there are a boat load of angry FO's, but they are not flying East metal.

By the way I never play Internet tough guy, if I have something nasty to say to someone it will be in person.

 

[Carl S.]

The East members of the "Angry F/O Club from Cranberry" outnumber the few West pilots by 10 to 1 at a minimum on web boards where screennames and personal threats do not exist! Like at USAviation where every pilot is in the top 517 and will vote no till the end, the false machismo is so thick you could cut it. Must have a warm fuzzy this week at the "ELITE" EMB-190 division out East, look into that fragmentation section in your CBA!

 

[PHXFLYR]

Threat?? you really need to put down the Clancy novels. The contract the company offered was completely unacceptable, the raise promised would not get us to industry standard and the work rules got even worse. Working under LOA 93 is bad, but these changes would make all of our lives hell.

As far as the angry FO club, seems to me especially on these boards, there are a boat load of angry FO's, but they are not flying East metal.

By the way I never play Internet tough guy, if I have something nasty to say to someone it will be in person.

Spoken like a true east coast thug. By the way since when did you USAPA goons ever express an interest in "all of our lives? " Seems like Parker could offer an industry leading contract payable in gold ingots and you ladies would still vote it down if it included the Nicolau seniority list. Who are you kidding ?? USAPA's M/O from this point forward is to delay as long as possible. It's the only thing you got left. And you know it.

PHXFLYR

 

[doh]

PHX, I think you need to pull back a little. All of his comments about the contract were simply against what he sees as hidden concessions. Like the Airtran offer that had a big increase in hourly and took away all the work rules. All he was trying to say was that you need work rule and pay gains to make a decent contract.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

 

[Lampshade]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

If you had to live under the USAPA leadership your point of view would be drastically different.

 

[NuGuy]

If you had to live under the USAPA leadership your point of view would be drastically different.

Ironic, since the west MUST take some of the blame for the envrionment which led to it's creation.

Look, I'm not absolving the east of anything, and they made some bad choices leading up to the arbitration, BUT, rather than manning up and trying to defuse a bad situation, the west made sure it only got worse.

If you're in a divorce, and trying to get the house from your partner, sure, you make your pitch in court. If you win, it doesn't do any good if your ex-partner is sooo pissed that they burn the house down. Despite what happens to them down the road if they do, your irreplaceable collection of baseball cards is still burned up along with the house.

Rather, you use your win as a little bit of leverage...like to pay them what you were going to anyway. You don't lose a single thing since you were going to have to pay someone anyway, and you come off as the hero, instead of a homeless person claiming "but, but...I won!!".

Nu

 

[m80drvr]

Ironic, since the west MUST take some of the blame for the envrionment which led to it's creation.

Look, I'm not absolving the east of anything, and they made some bad choices leading up to the arbitration, BUT, rather than manning up and trying to defuse a bad situation, the west made sure it only got worse.

If you're in a divorce, and trying to get the house from your partner, sure, you make your pitch in court. If you win, it doesn't do any good if your ex-partner is sooo pissed that they burn the house down. Despite what happens to them down the road if they do, your irreplaceable collection of baseball cards is still burned up along with the house.

Rather, you use your win as a little bit of leverage...like to pay them what you were going to anyway. You don't lose a single thing since you were going to have to pay someone anyway, and you come off as the hero, instead of a homeless person claiming "but, but...I won!!".

Nu

So I quess in yoour world it's ok to go to vegas and put all your money on a keno (lottery, your term) ticket, even thought the dealer tells you that your odds an winning are 10,000,000 to one. You lose, then you complain to the dealer that it was not a fair outcome, It's not what you expected or even better, you deserve to win because you have been betting at that casino for 20 years. You deserve to win. It's your right due to your vast gambling experience. I'm sure the casino will give you your money back....

Get over it man. When you are told that you will NOT get date of hire from the arbitrator because it it totally unfair to the other side, yet you still DEMAND date of hire from said arbitrator what do you expect? Why should ANY pilot give up their career expectations to make the USAir pilots whole. They chose to stay at the WORST performing major in the United States. A"major" that was all but out of business.

Using your logic all arbitrations in the US are null and void unless both sides like the outcome. When negotiations fail you go to arbitration and deal with rolling the dice. It's funny that you think that relative seniority is not fair. Walk a few feet in the shoes of a west pilot before speak about what you have no clue about

 

[formerdal]

So I quess in yoour world it's ok to go to vegas and put all your money on a keno (lottery, your term) ticket, even thought the dealer tells you that your odds an winning are 10,000,000 to one. You lose, then you complain to the dealer that it was not a fair outcome, It's not what you expected or even better, you deserve to win because you have been betting at that casino for 20 years. You deserve to win. It's your right due to your vast gambling experience. I'm sure the casino will give you your money back....

Get over it man. When you are told that you will NOT get date of hire from the arbitrator because it it totally unfair to the other side, yet you still DEMAND date of hire from said arbitrator what do you expect? Why should ANY pilot give up their career expectations to make the USAir pilots whole. They chose to stay at the WORST performing major in the United States. A"major" that was all but out of business.

Using your logic all arbitrations in the US are null and void unless both sides like the outcome. When negotiations fail you go to arbitration and deal with rolling the dice. It's funny that you think that relative seniority is not fair. Walk a few feet in the shoes of a west pilot before speak about what you have no clue about

Chill dude...he's not even a US air guy. He is right however, you guys waved the winning lottery ticket in their faces and now your paying the price for it.

 

[NuGuy]

Chill dude...he's not even a US air guy. He is right however, you guys waved the winning lottery ticket in their faces and now your paying the price for it.

Exactly. It's the intractable positions on both sides that have made things what they are.

The arbitration isn't exactly like a gambling...you expect a fair outcome, unlike Vegas where you KNOW the house will win the end.

You guys and gals are like divorcees that are being be forced to live in the same house together. You can either choose to live together, which will require some wiggle room from both parties, or the place will wind up burning down.

The "bail out of ALPA" talk isn't that uncommon. Some DAL guys were spouting that during the NWA/DAL SLI. Just so happens that the AAA guys had the moxie and chutzpah to actually pull it off.

Fact of the matter is that enough guys voted that way because they're REALLY pissed off. That's NOT something that's going to be overcome overnight, or by throwing a few dollars at them.

So while the east side may shoulder a fair share, or even a majority of the blame, the west side isn't blameless. Quit standing around with the "who farted" look on your faces when you damn well know you had the beans, too.

BTW, if they're appealing to the 9th circuit, you can't bet on ANY outcome. They might wind up ordering all of you to fly in chicken suits for being such d-bags to each other.

Nu

 

[cactusboy53]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

Nu;
That lottery ticket has left 142 AWA pilots (that had jobs before this "merger") on the street. The time to be flexable was at the merger list negotiation and mediation talks, NOT after a percieved unfair award was handed down in final and binding arbitration. Further, if we were to touch ONE reed of that award "basket"....it changes that award's ability to stand unchanged. It also opens the door for all other final and binding awards.

We AWA pilots have been forced to take our "union" to court for failure to fairly represent a faction of the pilot group. We now continue to pay our own legal fees AND as members must help fund the legal team that is attempting to undo the award and change the list to a DOH/LOS list. The AWA pilot's have not "won", we simply presented our case. An Arbitrator, two pilot neutrals, a Federal Judge, and 9 jurors have seen this for what it is.

The time to move on as a group with the Nicolau Award is now here. It should have been here over two years ago. We should have had a new contract 12-18 months ago.

Will USAPA do what is legally required? I guess we'll see.

 

[m80drvr]

Chill dude...he's not even a US air guy. He is right however, you guys waved the winning lottery ticket in their faces and now your paying the price for it.

I'm quite chill actually. I do get upset when pilots who followed the rules are getting the shaft. You assume that th west pilots were dancing in the streets when the award came out. In fact, most were just happy that we did not get stapled to the bottom of the east list. We were happy with relative seniority. Some were ever upset that the east got the first 500 slots (I was not they have the 330s the west didn't, they can have them). There may have been a few vocal idiots on the west, BUT they only spoke up when when the east started to demand a do over.....The east has a couple of thousand integrity challenged pilots that have no problem reneging on therir agreement. Now they promise to appeal to the Supreme Court. You wonder why the west is pissed.

Keep on blaming the west though, if it makes you feel better.

 

[captairbusbb]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

NuGuy........just so you are very CLEAR on the MAGNANIMOUS victory, the west tried in vain to negotiate..EAST said "no way, DOH or the highway".

That lead to mediation...much like your divorce scenario in a later thread. The EAST said again.."no way, DOH or the highway".

That lead to arbitration...As has been beaten here to death, FINAL AND BINDING...Once again...East said "no way, DOH or the highway".

One final chance before Nicolau made his decision he told the EAST, DOH will not happen. Slezham and associates told Nicolau they were fine with their argument for DOH, and did not change their methodology or strategy for the FINAL and BINDING agreement.

The rest is history......The west was not and are still not dancing and singing around "we won we won we won".

The East got ********************ed and the west got ********************ed.....Nobody won.

The East only wants what is fair in their mind. And an arbitrator, two neutrals, Federal Judge and nine United States citizen jurors do not agree with the EAST entitlement and elitist mentality.

So......off to the 9th Circuit and then the Supreme Court. When will this lunacy end?.....When the USAPA minions and constituents see that Lee Slezham is becoming a rich man at their expense.

Let's just let it rest.

bb

 

[FDJ2]

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out.

Nu, you don't get a mulligan, the time for working things out was prior to arbitration. The West is absolutely in the right to expect the award to be honored in its entirety. You don't get to throw a tantrum, just because you're a bigger group, and expect the smaller group to make concessions to an abusive majority.