Nicolau Award

[FR8mastr]

The damage caused by the East's withdrawal from contract negotiations in 2007 will last the rest of our careers. Someday even you may realize where the blame lies.

That goes right back to the concessionary contract. Did you look at the work rule changes the company wanted in order to give you your 3% raise?
My guess is there was something else you would get with a contract that made all other things irrelevant.

 

[FR8mastr]

Interesting choice of words and sort of ties in with some recent and rather nasty PM's recently exchanged between east pilots and west on another webboard. Is this another veiled threat from the angry FO club ?? Or am I taking this out of context ??? Care to clarify what exactly is meant by the phrase "the price you will pay ???? " I'm sure we would all like to know.

PHXFLYR

Threat?? you really need to put down the Clancy novels. The contract the company offered was completely unacceptable, the raise promised would not get us to industry standard and the work rules got even worse. Working under LOA 93 is bad, but these changes would make all of our lives hell.

As far as the angry FO club, seems to me especially on these boards, there are a boat load of angry FO's, but they are not flying East metal.

By the way I never play Internet tough guy, if I have something nasty to say to someone it will be in person.

 

[Carl S.]

The East members of the "Angry F/O Club from Cranberry" outnumber the few West pilots by 10 to 1 at a minimum on web boards where screennames and personal threats do not exist! Like at USAviation where every pilot is in the top 517 and will vote no till the end, the false machismo is so thick you could cut it. Must have a warm fuzzy this week at the "ELITE" EMB-190 division out East, look into that fragmentation section in your CBA!

 

[PHXFLYR]

Threat?? you really need to put down the Clancy novels. The contract the company offered was completely unacceptable, the raise promised would not get us to industry standard and the work rules got even worse. Working under LOA 93 is bad, but these changes would make all of our lives hell.

As far as the angry FO club, seems to me especially on these boards, there are a boat load of angry FO's, but they are not flying East metal.

By the way I never play Internet tough guy, if I have something nasty to say to someone it will be in person.

Spoken like a true east coast thug. By the way since when did you USAPA goons ever express an interest in "all of our lives? " Seems like Parker could offer an industry leading contract payable in gold ingots and you ladies would still vote it down if it included the Nicolau seniority list. Who are you kidding ?? USAPA's M/O from this point forward is to delay as long as possible. It's the only thing you got left. And you know it.

PHXFLYR

 

[doh]

PHX, I think you need to pull back a little. All of his comments about the contract were simply against what he sees as hidden concessions. Like the Airtran offer that had a big increase in hourly and took away all the work rules. All he was trying to say was that you need work rule and pay gains to make a decent contract.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

 

[Lampshade]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

If you had to live under the USAPA leadership your point of view would be drastically different.

 

[NuGuy]

If you had to live under the USAPA leadership your point of view would be drastically different.

Ironic, since the west MUST take some of the blame for the envrionment which led to it's creation.

Look, I'm not absolving the east of anything, and they made some bad choices leading up to the arbitration, BUT, rather than manning up and trying to defuse a bad situation, the west made sure it only got worse.

If you're in a divorce, and trying to get the house from your partner, sure, you make your pitch in court. If you win, it doesn't do any good if your ex-partner is sooo pissed that they burn the house down. Despite what happens to them down the road if they do, your irreplaceable collection of baseball cards is still burned up along with the house.

Rather, you use your win as a little bit of leverage...like to pay them what you were going to anyway. You don't lose a single thing since you were going to have to pay someone anyway, and you come off as the hero, instead of a homeless person claiming "but, but...I won!!".

Nu

 

[m80drvr]

Ironic, since the west MUST take some of the blame for the envrionment which led to it's creation.

Look, I'm not absolving the east of anything, and they made some bad choices leading up to the arbitration, BUT, rather than manning up and trying to defuse a bad situation, the west made sure it only got worse.

If you're in a divorce, and trying to get the house from your partner, sure, you make your pitch in court. If you win, it doesn't do any good if your ex-partner is sooo pissed that they burn the house down. Despite what happens to them down the road if they do, your irreplaceable collection of baseball cards is still burned up along with the house.

Rather, you use your win as a little bit of leverage...like to pay them what you were going to anyway. You don't lose a single thing since you were going to have to pay someone anyway, and you come off as the hero, instead of a homeless person claiming "but, but...I won!!".

Nu

So I quess in yoour world it's ok to go to vegas and put all your money on a keno (lottery, your term) ticket, even thought the dealer tells you that your odds an winning are 10,000,000 to one. You lose, then you complain to the dealer that it was not a fair outcome, It's not what you expected or even better, you deserve to win because you have been betting at that casino for 20 years. You deserve to win. It's your right due to your vast gambling experience. I'm sure the casino will give you your money back....

Get over it man. When you are told that you will NOT get date of hire from the arbitrator because it it totally unfair to the other side, yet you still DEMAND date of hire from said arbitrator what do you expect? Why should ANY pilot give up their career expectations to make the USAir pilots whole. They chose to stay at the WORST performing major in the United States. A"major" that was all but out of business.

Using your logic all arbitrations in the US are null and void unless both sides like the outcome. When negotiations fail you go to arbitration and deal with rolling the dice. It's funny that you think that relative seniority is not fair. Walk a few feet in the shoes of a west pilot before speak about what you have no clue about

 

[formerdal]

So I quess in yoour world it's ok to go to vegas and put all your money on a keno (lottery, your term) ticket, even thought the dealer tells you that your odds an winning are 10,000,000 to one. You lose, then you complain to the dealer that it was not a fair outcome, It's not what you expected or even better, you deserve to win because you have been betting at that casino for 20 years. You deserve to win. It's your right due to your vast gambling experience. I'm sure the casino will give you your money back....

Get over it man. When you are told that you will NOT get date of hire from the arbitrator because it it totally unfair to the other side, yet you still DEMAND date of hire from said arbitrator what do you expect? Why should ANY pilot give up their career expectations to make the USAir pilots whole. They chose to stay at the WORST performing major in the United States. A"major" that was all but out of business.

Using your logic all arbitrations in the US are null and void unless both sides like the outcome. When negotiations fail you go to arbitration and deal with rolling the dice. It's funny that you think that relative seniority is not fair. Walk a few feet in the shoes of a west pilot before speak about what you have no clue about

Chill dude...he's not even a US air guy. He is right however, you guys waved the winning lottery ticket in their faces and now your paying the price for it.

 

[NuGuy]

Chill dude...he's not even a US air guy. He is right however, you guys waved the winning lottery ticket in their faces and now your paying the price for it.

Exactly. It's the intractable positions on both sides that have made things what they are.

The arbitration isn't exactly like a gambling...you expect a fair outcome, unlike Vegas where you KNOW the house will win the end.

You guys and gals are like divorcees that are being be forced to live in the same house together. You can either choose to live together, which will require some wiggle room from both parties, or the place will wind up burning down.

The "bail out of ALPA" talk isn't that uncommon. Some DAL guys were spouting that during the NWA/DAL SLI. Just so happens that the AAA guys had the moxie and chutzpah to actually pull it off.

Fact of the matter is that enough guys voted that way because they're REALLY pissed off. That's NOT something that's going to be overcome overnight, or by throwing a few dollars at them.

So while the east side may shoulder a fair share, or even a majority of the blame, the west side isn't blameless. Quit standing around with the "who farted" look on your faces when you damn well know you had the beans, too.

BTW, if they're appealing to the 9th circuit, you can't bet on ANY outcome. They might wind up ordering all of you to fly in chicken suits for being such d-bags to each other.

Nu

 

[cactusboy53]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

Nu;
That lottery ticket has left 142 AWA pilots (that had jobs before this "merger") on the street. The time to be flexable was at the merger list negotiation and mediation talks, NOT after a percieved unfair award was handed down in final and binding arbitration. Further, if we were to touch ONE reed of that award "basket"....it changes that award's ability to stand unchanged. It also opens the door for all other final and binding awards.

We AWA pilots have been forced to take our "union" to court for failure to fairly represent a faction of the pilot group. We now continue to pay our own legal fees AND as members must help fund the legal team that is attempting to undo the award and change the list to a DOH/LOS list. The AWA pilot's have not "won", we simply presented our case. An Arbitrator, two pilot neutrals, a Federal Judge, and 9 jurors have seen this for what it is.

The time to move on as a group with the Nicolau Award is now here. It should have been here over two years ago. We should have had a new contract 12-18 months ago.

Will USAPA do what is legally required? I guess we'll see.

 

[m80drvr]

Chill dude...he's not even a US air guy. He is right however, you guys waved the winning lottery ticket in their faces and now your paying the price for it.

I'm quite chill actually. I do get upset when pilots who followed the rules are getting the shaft. You assume that th west pilots were dancing in the streets when the award came out. In fact, most were just happy that we did not get stapled to the bottom of the east list. We were happy with relative seniority. Some were ever upset that the east got the first 500 slots (I was not they have the 330s the west didn't, they can have them). There may have been a few vocal idiots on the west, BUT they only spoke up when when the east started to demand a do over.....The east has a couple of thousand integrity challenged pilots that have no problem reneging on therir agreement. Now they promise to appeal to the Supreme Court. You wonder why the west is pissed.

Keep on blaming the west though, if it makes you feel better.

 

[captairbusbb]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

NuGuy........just so you are very CLEAR on the MAGNANIMOUS victory, the west tried in vain to negotiate..EAST said "no way, DOH or the highway".

That lead to mediation...much like your divorce scenario in a later thread. The EAST said again.."no way, DOH or the highway".

That lead to arbitration...As has been beaten here to death, FINAL AND BINDING...Once again...East said "no way, DOH or the highway".

One final chance before Nicolau made his decision he told the EAST, DOH will not happen. Slezham and associates told Nicolau they were fine with their argument for DOH, and did not change their methodology or strategy for the FINAL and BINDING agreement.

The rest is history......The west was not and are still not dancing and singing around "we won we won we won".

The East got ********************ed and the west got ********************ed.....Nobody won.

The East only wants what is fair in their mind. And an arbitrator, two neutrals, Federal Judge and nine United States citizen jurors do not agree with the EAST entitlement and elitist mentality.

So......off to the 9th Circuit and then the Supreme Court. When will this lunacy end?.....When the USAPA minions and constituents see that Lee Slezham is becoming a rich man at their expense.

Let's just let it rest.

bb

 

[FDJ2]

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out.

Nu, you don't get a mulligan, the time for working things out was prior to arbitration. The West is absolutely in the right to expect the award to be honored in its entirety. You don't get to throw a tantrum, just because you're a bigger group, and expect the smaller group to make concessions to an abusive majority.

 

[NuGuy]

Nu, you don't get a mulligan, the time for working things out was prior to arbitration. The West is absolutely in the right to expect the award to be honored in its entirety. You don't get to throw a tantrum, just because you're a bigger group, and expect the smaller group to make concessions to an abusive majority.

Heyas,

Well, that might be true in some perfect universe, but in fact, the east DID get to throw a tantrum, exactly because they were the bigger group, and they've gotten away with it up until this point.

In the meantime, their airline, for both east and west, is circling the crapper, because neither side felt like moving off their position.

It remains to be seen if, indeed, they're forced to do anything.

So yea, in a perfect world, judges and aribitrators are always right and fair, and people always play by the rules, and my flautus would always smell like cinammon buns and rainbows. Then we could all stand on our honor and principals and expect that fair play always ends up with the best result.

But you and I know this isn't a perfect world.

In this case, more pragmatic people might want to take charge of the situation. A majority of pissed off employees can do an awful lot to sink an airline out of spite....then what have you won? A pyrrhic victory, at best.

Nu

 

[Green]

Heyas,

IMHO, as much as the east guys were poor losers, the west side have been poor winners.

Despite the fact that they were handed a lottery ticket by the arbitrator, which, frankly, was brought on by the east guys themselves, the west pilots have done nothing but inflame the situation from that day...dancing around and singing "we won we won we won, nanananana!", KNOWING full well the situation was unacceptable to the east guys.

Rather, they had an opportunity to be magnanimous in victory, be a little bit flexible, and work something out. They could have saved themselves some money, potential furloughs and made a small step from saving their airline from a death spiral. But like a child being told to share their toys, all we get is "No! I won! It's MINE!".

What's going to happen in this case is going to be the same. Some adult is going to get tired of listening to it, and take away the toys from BOTH children. Then the fun will be over...

Nu

What a stupid post....

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Heyas,

Well, that might be true in some perfect universe, but in fact, the east DID get to throw a tantrum, exactly because they were the bigger group, and they've gotten away with it up until this point.

In the meantime, their airline, for both east and west, is circling the crapper, because neither side felt like moving off their position.

It remains to be seen if, indeed, they're forced to do anything.

So yea, in a perfect world, judges and aribitrators are always right and fair, and people always play by the rules, and my flautus would always smell like cinammon buns and rainbows. Then we could all stand on our honor and principals and expect that fair play always ends up with the best result.

But you and I know this isn't a perfect world.

In this case, more pragmatic people might want to take charge of the situation. A majority of pissed off employees can do an awful lot to sink an airline out of spite....then what have you won? A pyrrhic victory, at best.

Nu

Do you really believe the airline is circling the crapper because of this dispute between pilots? Isn't that a bit of a "pilot-centric" view of the world? The company has no intentions of deviating from the Nic list. They said so in federal court a few weeks ago. They're perfectly happy to exploit this situation to their advantage and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

In the absence of age 65, the junior east guys would be gaining upgrades from this situation. As it is, they're just stagnating (oh, and I guess preventing the big boogeyman they've created in their minds of hundreds of west guys bidding into PHL senior to them). The appeal process will be history by the time significant retirements kick in again and there will be a new union and/or a new contract by then so all the delay will be for naught. Pretty big $ to pay for an emotional arguement.

What's up with your fascination with flatulence?

 

[NuGuy]

What's up with your fascination with flatulence?

You're kidding, right? We're both on a message board that consists, intellectually speaking, of nothing but.

Nu

 

[eaglesview]

Do you really believe the airline is circling the crapper because of this dispute between pilots? Isn't that a bit of a "pilot-centric" view of the world? The company has no intentions of deviating from the Nic list. They said so in federal court a few weeks ago. They're perfectly happy to exploit this situation to their advantage and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

In the absence of age 65, the junior east guys would be gaining upgrades from this situation. As it is, they're just stagnating (oh, and I guess preventing the big boogeyman they've created in their minds of hundreds of west guys bidding into PHL senior to them). What's up with your fascination with flatulence?

You broke the code. The fact is, emotions aside, the east will make more in upgrades than any contract provide them with the nic. That's just simple mathematics. I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

 

[Green]

You broke the code. The fact is, emotions aside, the east will make more in upgrades than any contract provide them with the nic. That's just simple mathematics. I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

Your assumptions are incorrect. East narrowbody captains top out at approximately 125/hr. Assuming a new contract is industry standard then we will see top of scale fo's at 125 hour. Then you have to consider that a junior east ca gets paid guarantee while as a senior fo he/she could credit much higher. Throw in substantially more vacation, higher retirement contribution, better work rules, etc and it's a no-brainer. Your logic doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's obvious the east is running on emotion.

The east contract is so bad you would all be better off as senior FO's than junior Captains....As you said, "that's just simple mathematics."

 

[Thebadcat1313]

You broke the code. The fact is, emotions aside, the east will make more in upgrades than any contract provide them with the nic. That's just simple mathematics. I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

So do you think there would be no retirements on the west in the absence of age 65? That rule affected both sides of the operation. Here's a few stats for you:

1) Since the merger in 2005, there were over 125 west retirements prior to age 60 being changed.

2) There have since been 140 downgrades on the west. So there are presently 260+/- fewer west captains than there were in 2005. That's a reduction of around 30% of west captain jobs.

3) Total flying that transitions through west hubs since then has decreased only about 8%. (Yeah, I know, 22% reduction in Vegas, but that's a small portion of west flying. PHX hasn't decreased that much). So, there has been a 30% reduction in west captain jobs with only an 8% reduction in flying.

4) There are 8000 block-hours per month of flying that transitions through LAS and PHX that is currently being flown by east aircraft/crews. This is flying that used to be done by west aircraft/crews.

5) West captains make, on average $20 more per hour. West F/O's make, on average, $5 per hour more. The west contract has superior work rules and benefits across the board.

Is it any wonder why the company has transferred west flying to east crews? East does it cheaper, plain and simple. If you east guys want to be proud of that, fine, but you've already become another chapter in "Flying the Line III".

This is classic whipsaw, folks. The greed and entitlement mentality of some on the east has played right into the company's hands.

Now, the company has it's sights on the E-190 and associated east crews. They can park, sell or lease those aircraft and furlough accordingly. The whipsaw is about to swing the other way. I hate to see anyone lose their job, but USAPA has stupidly put all pilots of US Airways in harms way. For what? A losing attempt to thwart an agreed upon arbitration. Sickening.

 

[johnnyb]

Your assumptions are incorrect.East narrowbody captains top out at approximately 125/hr. Assuming a new contract is industry standard then we will see top of scale fo's at 125 hour.

Please name all airlines paying $125 per hour to 737 F/O's ( except SWA ).

 

[formerdal]

Please name all airlines paying $125 per hour to 737 F/O's ( except SWA ).

He never said 737 FO. Airways operates A330's and 767's dont they??

 

[eaglesview]

So do you think there would be no retirements on the west in the absence of age 65? That rule affected both sides of the operation. Here's a few stats for you:

1) Since the merger in 2005, there were over 125 west retirements prior to age 60 being changed.

2) There have since been 140 downgrades on the west. So there are presently 260+/- fewer west captains than there were in 2005. That's a reduction of around 30% of west captain jobs.

3) Total flying that transitions through west hubs since then has decreased only about 8%. (Yeah, I know, 22% reduction in Vegas, but that's a small portion of west flying. PHX hasn't decreased that much). So, there has been a 30% reduction in west captain jobs with only an 8% reduction in flying.

4) There are 8000 block-hours per month of flying that transitions through LAS and PHX that is currently being flown by east aircraft/crews. This is flying that used to be done by west aircraft/crews.

5) West captains make, on average $20 more per hour. West F/O's make, on average, $5 per hour more. The west contract has superior work rules and benefits across the board.

Is it any wonder why the company has transferred west flying to east crews? East does it cheaper, plain and simple. If you east guys want to be proud of that, fine, but you've already become another chapter in "Flying the Line III".

This is classic whipsaw, folks. The greed and entitlement mentality of some on the east has played right into the company's hands.

Now, the company has it's sights on the E-190 and associated east crews. They can park, sell or lease those aircraft and furlough accordingly. The whipsaw is about to swing the other way. I hate to see anyone lose their job, but USAPA has stupidly put all pilots of US Airways in harms way. For what? A losing attempt to thwart an agreed upon arbitration. Sickening.

Nice long response. None of which changes the fact of my post.

 

[TWA Dude]

I'm not saying they are right in their actions but it's not hard to figure out why there is no effort on the east side to complete the merge.

Then why do you keep trying to justify their actions? Actually, I know why. Just because you think DOH is what their entitled to you think that justifies anything. Good thing there's very few like you in the industry outside of US Air (East).

 

[FDJ2]

Heyas,

In the meantime, their airline, for both east and west, is circling the crapper, because neither side felt like moving off their position.

Nu, why would the west pilots strike a bargain with a pilot group that doesn't honor its committments? I wouldn't.

There's a huge credibility problem, the east pilots have acted more like an unprincipled mob than a professional group that can be trusted to keep their word.

 

[Grandpa +65]

Retired American Pilot Saved In a Horse-Back Riding Mishap

A wealthy retired American Airlines pilot narrowly escaped serious injury recently when he attempted horse-back riding with no prior experience.

He mounted the horse, unassisted, and the horse immediately began moving. As it galloped along at a steady and rhythmic pace, the pilot began slipping sideways from the saddle.

Although attempting to grab the horse's mane he could not get a firm grip. He then threw his arms around the horse's neck but continued to slide down the side of the horse. The horse loped along, seemingly oblivious to its slipping rider. Finally, losing his grip, he attempted to leap away from the horse and throw himself to safety. His foot became entangled in the stirrup, and he was at the mercy of the horses pounding hooves as his head and upper body repeatedly struck the ground. Moments away from unconsciousness and probable death, to his great fortune a retired USAirways pilot, working as a greeter at Wal-Mart to supplement his meager retirement, observed the situation and quickly unplugged the horse.

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Nice long response. None of which changes the fact of my post.

The company will need to be upgrading in order for the east to enjoy the benefits you speak of. In light of age 65 and the recession, they are stagnating and will continue to do so for a few years, at which point the appeal will be history. In the end, they will have screwed themselves out of 4 or 5 years of a 17% - 27% pay raise and better work rules for nothing.