Nicolau Award

[MCDU]

I said it before and it needs repeating again.

Put up a fence of the West's choosing that will not allow any East pilot to take any seats the West pilots now own. Any duration will do 10 years 15, whatever. Now at the same time allow West pilots to bid East using DOH.

What this results in is no West pilot losing his job to an East pilot, EVER. West pilots capturing East attrition using DOH.


So the question remains who is really trying to take flying?

Awaiting the integrity filled responses.

That sums it up pretty good.

The West is worried that the jobs they have are not worth much and they hope they can slide into the few mainline position the East have left after USAIR got cut in half. Thanks to the min fleet provision the East is all but done cutting.

The staple job 500 active real USAIR pilots took it May of 2005 was a windfall for the West. Dave Odell could hold Capt on the 190 out East or be blockholder on the bus. Instead he his furloughed .

The Saint Nic award would put a furloughed pilot that was hired in 2005 ahead of a E 190 Capt hired in 1988.

M

 

[TWA Dude]

I said it before and it needs repeating again.

Are you still trying to argue seniority integration? That's so 2007.

So the question remains who is really trying to take flying?

Well, let's see. A federal court just found the East liable of violating DFR. That pretty plainly means the East tried to steal from the West. They didn't succeed.

Awaiting the integrity filled responses.

I hope I didn't make you wait too long.

 

[FR8mastr]

I hope I didn't make you wait too long.

Nope, exactly what I expected, you have your windfall and just like at WYE river, it will no longer be discussed.

 

[becket]

There is no "West" anymore. One airline. One seniority list in the future. Nic.

NEXT!

 

[T2Bus]

that sums it up pretty good.

The west is worried that the jobs they have are not worth much and they hope they can slide into the few mainline position the east have left after usair got cut in half. Thanks to the min fleet provision the east is all but done cutting.

The staple job 500 active real usair pilots took it may of 2005 was a windfall for the west. Dave odell could hold capt on the 190 out east or be blockholder on the bus. Instead he his furloughed .

The saint nic award would put a furloughed pilot that was hired in 2005 ahead of a e 190 capt hired in 1988.

M

mcdu......you are burning the tacos again. Please don't think, just put the meat in the shell and forget the airline business.

 

[T2Bus]

Mcdu....tacos...tacos....tacos....tacos

 

[Bad-Andy]

Thanks to the min fleet provision the East is all but done cutting.
M

Not quite. The E190's don't count in the min fleet count. And guess what, just today US announced that they are looking at "eliminating" all 25 of the 190s. Can't say for sure if it will happen or not, but if it does get ready for A LOT more East furloughs. Rough estimate, several hundred furloughs, clear back to the 88-89 hires again... How many times is enough?????

 

[FDJ2]

I said it before and it needs repeating again.

Put up a fence of the West's choosing that will not allow any East pilot to take any seats the West pilots now own. Any duration will do 10 years 15, whatever. Now at the same time allow West pilots to bid East using DOH.

What this results in is no West pilot losing his job to an East pilot, EVER. West pilots capturing East attrition using DOH.


So the question remains who is really trying to take flying?

Awaiting the integrity filled responses.

If you were the arbitrator perhaps that's how it would have gone, however, both sides chose to take it to arbitration and the East got the arbitrator they wanted. Nicolau is an experienced and respected arbitrator, after listening to over 3000 pages of testimony he issued his award, which is the integrated seniority list. The time for negotiating ended the second the award was issued. The east needs to live up to their end of the bargain.

 

[waveflyer]

can i just throw in that none of this daytime emmy award winning drama would be going on if we had the security that every other professional has-- the ability to interview for a new position at the same pay level and responsibility as the one we got laid off from.... or more.

When will we as pilots realize that much of the angst in our career is our own doing? don't have all the answers- but i know this kind of bs isn't working.

Managements industry wide have been using seniority against us- playing us against each other for 20+ years. At some point, it's not their fault- since it works.

 

[TWA Dude]

When will we as pilots realize that much of the angst in our career is our own doing? don't have all the answers- but i know this kind of bs isn't working.

I disagree. The seniority system is harsh but I can think of no better alternative. Merit-based promotion? You think we have a lot management kiss-butts now just imagine.

This integration is a mess only because one side's sense of entitlement got the better of them. If they'd accepted reality the integration could've been completed in 2007 when our company was profitable. One bad batch of apples doesn't mean the whole crop is spoiled.

 

[FlyUnder]

Let me guess what club you belong to...... ANGRY FO CLUB[/QUOTE

You would be wrong.

And you belong to the Scumbag Opportunistic Thief club, and will be treated accordingly.

Flyunder.

 

[T2Bus]

Let me guess what club you belong to...... ANGRY FO CLUB[/QUOTE

You would be wrong.

And you belong to the Scumbag Opportunistic Thief club, and will be treated accordingly.

Flyunder.

SOTC......cool.​

 

[T2Bus]

Let me guess what club you belong to...... ANGRY FO CLUB[/QUOTE

You would be wrong.

And you belong to the Scumbag Opportunistic Thief club, and will be treated accordingly.

Flyunder.

.....and a threat too. Can I carry your flight bag. Captain Sir.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

The west pilot's are on the street because the WEST flying went away. LAS downsized by 75%, and PHX by 20%. This is why.

What the AWA pilots WANTED to do was find a home on EAST aircraft when WEST flying was cut, at the expense of US Airways pilots.

FlyUnder

Amen, brother.

After I got bumped back to reserve and noticed that I'm making about 75% of what I was making this time last year I was thinking to myself "those poor East guys. I've gained so much at their expense."

And I can't help but feel sorry for the East guys when I see a dozen of their planes parked at out gates in PHX flying to all of the cities that I used to fly to. I'm thinking that it really sucks for them.

In fact, one of my furloughed buddies was complaining about not having a job anymore and I said "suck it up, man. You've gained so much at the expense of the East pilots. You need to be more thankful for what you got outta those guys."

I'm losing sleep at night because of how bad we screwed the East brothers. What should I do?

 

[waveflyer]

T-dub- i can list off 20 blue collar professions that carry their payscale across jobs and it works. Seniority is necessary- but we still need to be able to change companies w/o the catastrophic hit to our finances and lives.

Talk to any other professional in the market- blue to white- and they will immediately react with "well that's dumb...."

 

[waveflyer]

great post Flynhi-- the avatar is the only thing that ruins it. well said.

So i'll get off my previous soapbox and ask some genuine questions:

are there any penalties if the east continues on their previous course? What compels them to act and negotiate to implement Nic? Do you get money from USAPA now - b/c there certainly has been a HUGE financial hit to the west b/c of their delays. Has the judge recognized that every day they delay is a win for them and does he have a plan to make you whole?

 

[gutshotdraw]

From what I have read, USAPA is going to appeal, again, this time to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. They will get their a$$es handed to them, again, and they will probably appeal, again, to the Supreme Court which I doubt will hear the case. By the time it's settled, half the fossils at USAir will be rocking their chairs on the front porch collecting their pitiful pensions and the number owed to the Westies will be larger than the GDP of several banana republics. Pathetic all the way around.

 

[Sandhawk]

By the time it's settled, half the fossils at USAir will be rocking their chairs on the front porch collecting their pitiful pensions and the number owed to the Westies will be larger than the GDP of several banana republics. Pathetic all the way around.

Hopefully, their pensions can be garnished to pay for the damages that will be awarded for the ANGRY FO Club experiment.

I'm sure that the senior retiring Eastwipes will try to skate out of any debts they owe and pawn it off on the "junior" guys out East.

(Donning Flame Resistant Suit and running for the hills)

imp:

 

[TWA Dude]

T-dub- i can list off 20 blue collar professions that carry their payscale across jobs and it works.

That's more of a supply-vs-demand issue. If or when airlines become desperate for pilots they'll come to the unions for relief -- and that'll cost them.

Seniority is necessary- but we still need to be able to change companies w/o the catastrophic hit to our finances and lives.

Sure that would be great but it ain't going to happen. You need to remember why the seniority system we're bound by was set up in the first place. It's a necessary evil to protect us from egregious management. Management certainly hasn't gotten any friendlier thus the seniority system has to stay in place.

Talk to any other professional in the market- blue to white- and they will immediately react with "well that's dumb...."

Ask them how they feel when higher-paid workers get laid off in favor of keeping more lower-paid workers.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

From what I have read, USAPA is going to appeal, again, this time to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals...

Let 'em try.

I'll bet right now that the 9th Circuit Court won't even take the case. Why would they? Two credible judges have already ruled against USAPA.

I can't think of any court that would accept the appeal at this point.

 

[gutshotdraw]

USAPA leadership has said they will appeal and I haven't any idea if the court will accept the case. This I do know: if the 9th Circuit does take the case, USAPA will LOSE. AGAIN.

 

[doh]

I just keep butting my head up against the "what happens when there are no more appeals" question. There is no strategy beyond that. Then the angry FO club is really going to be angry.

 

[waveflyer]

again- what are the penalties if the east continues to delay?

 

[cactusboy53]

again- what are the penalties if the east continues to delay?

Contempt of court? Maybe Cleary, Mowrey and the gang spend a few nights in Joe Arpaio's tent city????? Free pink jumpsuits & underwear. Baloney sandwiches for lunch.

 

[FR8mastr]

Where are you guys coming up with union delays?

What on Earth makes you think Doug wants a contract with any kind of raise when he has the worst paid pilots in the country?

I know the only thing you guys like to do is bash USAPA, but are you really on here crying because they have not come up with another concessionary contract?

Have any of you even bothered to look at the price you will pay in order to get the 3% raise promised by your hero? A contract is much more than an hourly number.

Yea I know all that does not fit into the USAPA is the root of all evil campaign. Just try and remember in about 5 years or so, you and your fellow USAPA bashers will actually be running it. Who will you blame then?

 

[TWA Dude]

Just try and remember in about 5 years or so, you and your fellow USAPA bashers will actually be running it.

There's that 5-year promise again. In 1999 I was told I'd be a TWA captain in five years. In 2004 I was told I'd be an AWA captain in 5-7 years. You'll forgive us if we don't take your word for it. We'll believe it when it happens and not a day sooner.

Who will you blame then?

The damage caused by the East's withdrawal from contract negotiations in 2007 will last the rest of our careers. Someday even you may realize where the blame lies.

 

[PHXFLYR]

There's that 5-year promise again. In 1999 I was told I'd be a TWA captain in five years. In 2004 I was told I'd be an AWA captain in 5-7 years. You'll forgive us if we don't take your word for it. We'll believe it when it happens and not a day sooner.The damage caused by the East's withdrawal from contract negotiations in 2007 will last the rest of our careers. Someday even you may realize where the blame lies.

Beeeeeauuutiful ....!!!!! Couldn't have said it any better myself if I tried.:beer:


PHXFLYR

 

[DOVPILOT]

Maybe Republic can buy US.

watch out what you wish for, it may happen before you know it!!!

 

[DOVPILOT]

will last the rest of our careers.....

Well, that all depends on how OLD you are...LOL

 

[PHXFLYR]

Where are you guys coming up with union delays?

What on Earth makes you think Doug wants a contract with any kind of raise when he has the worst paid pilots in the country?

I know the only thing you guys like to do is bash USAPA, but are you really on here crying because they have not come up with another concessionary contract?

Have any of you even bothered to look at the price you will pay in order to get the 3% raise promised by your hero? A contract is much more than an hourly number.

Yea I know all that does not fit into the USAPA is the root of all evil campaign. Just try and remember in about 5 years or so, you and your fellow USAPA bashers will actually be running it. Who will you blame then?

Interesting choice of words and sort of ties in with some recent and rather nasty PM's recently exchanged between east pilots and west on another webboard. Is this another veiled threat from the angry FO club ?? Or am I taking this out of context ??? Care to clarify what exactly is meant by the phrase "the price you will pay ???? " I'm sure we would all like to know.

PHXFLYR