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Nicolau Award

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FDJ2 said:
Yes it's fair. What's not fair is an abusive majority stealing seniority that is not rightfully theirs, dragging another pilot group into an unprincipled sham of a union and not honoring a final and binding seniority award as previously agreed too. No one is planning on stealing jobs, the jobs have already been stolen by an unprincipled mob, aka USAPA, and those jobs will eventually be returned to the original owners along with fines and assessments of the east pilots to be paid to the west pilots who have suffered harm due to USAPA's failure to fairly represent all members of the bargaining unit.
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Yeahbut, guys like Sulley have INTEGRITY...... they would never do that...right???

Thank GAWD those Easties got their arses handed to them. What a bunch a wheenies. Can't wait to hear what those CLT MEC guys think of a video camera in their meetings. Guess what A-holes? It's allowed now...

Bye Bye---General Lee
 
FDJ2 said:
Yes it's fair. What's not fair is an abusive majority stealing seniority that is not rightfully theirs, dragging another pilot group into an unprincipled sham of a union and not honoring a final and binding seniority award as previously agreed too. No one is planning on stealing jobs, the jobs have already been stolen by an unprincipled mob, aka USAPA, and those jobs will eventually be returned to the original owners along with fines and assessments of the east pilots to be paid to the west pilots who have suffered harm due to USAPA's failure to fairly represent all members of the bargaining unit.
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Well stated.
 
FDJ2 said:
Yes it's fair. What's not fair is an abusive majority stealing seniority that is not rightfully theirs, dragging another pilot group into an unprincipled sham of a union and not honoring a final and binding seniority award as previously agreed too. No one is planning on stealing jobs, the jobs have already been stolen by an unprincipled mob, aka USAPA, and those jobs will eventually be returned to the original owners along with fines and assessments of the east pilots to be paid to the west pilots who have suffered harm due to USAPA's failure to fairly represent all members of the bargaining unit.
Click to expand...

This Company did an about face just prior to September o4, stopped a major expansion in South and Latin America, and closed down a major hub expansion in FLL. The ONLY thing they went after during the 2nd bankruptcy was the employee contracts. The target we were told from day one was the LOW BALL AWA contract. We were told that we HAD to match the AWA contract almost exactly.

After the merger was announced it came out that AWA and the company had been talking since PRIOR to the bankruptcy filing. That is correct - PRIOR. It became very obvious that Parker had been back-dooring the shots for some time. In addition to the Captain jobs lost due to the contract changes, US Airways parked 60 aircraft as a DIRECT result of the merger.

All of these jobs were HELD by US Airways pilots and are now being TRANSFERRED to AWA pilots by virtue of a flawed and corrupt system. Just ONE example - It took ALPA 18 MONTHS before even setting the PID date, because AWA couldn't come up with an accurate seniority list. (For reference - The entire Delta/NWA process took about 18 months from start to finish!)

This is just one of the reasons why this will NEVER be settled, and why the AWA scumbags will be treated as the opportunistic thieves that they are.

Their cry throughout the merger process was "Keep your eye on the prize." I wonder why?

FlyUnder
 
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FlyUnder said:
This Company did an about face just prior to September o4, stopped a major expansion in South and Latin America, and closed down a major hub expansion in FLL. The ONLY thing they went after during the 2nd bankruptcy was the employee contracts. The target we were told from day one was the LOW BALL AWA contract. We were told that we HAD to match the AWA contract almost exactly.

After the merger was announced it came out that AWA and the company had been talking since PRIOR to the bankruptcy filing. That is correct - PRIOR. It became very obvious that Parker had been back-dooring the shots for some time. In addition to the Captain jobs lost due to the contract changes, US Airways parked 60 aircraft as a DIRECT result of the merger.

All of these jobs were HELD by US Airways pilots and are now being TRANSFERRED to AWA pilots by virtue of a flawed and corrupt system. Just ONE example - It took ALPA 18 MONTHS before even setting the PID date, because AWA couldn't come up with an accurate seniority list. (For reference - The entire Delta/NWA process took about 18 months from start to finish!)

This is just one of the reasons why this will NEVER be settled, and why the AWA scumbags will be treated as the opportunistic thieves that they are.

Their cry throughout the merger process was "Keep your eye on the prize." I wonder why?

FlyUnder
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Just what jobs have been transferred to the west. As I see it west pilots that were working before the merger and now on the street while UNEMPLOYED east pilot are now working.

What reality are you living in? The PID date was not held up by anyone but ALPA and the merger process. The east grew in sive just after the merger. What are you smoking?

Your bitterness would be better directed toward your former management teams that milked your company dry, while NOT growing it into a viable carrier. USAirways has ALWAYS been on the ropes. Unfortunately you are too blind to see that.

I see no reasons why you must call the west pilots "scumbags" The average west pilot wants nothing more than this to be over. And if you and the east brain trust don't come to your senses it will be over soon. How you gonna feel being over 50 and unemployed!!!!!!! No one is going to merge with this mess.

By the way, if your definition of a "scumbag" is a person who expects those they do business with to live up to their agreements, then I guess the west pilots are scumbags. Most NON east pilots believe that is the definition on integrity.

Good luck
 
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This is just one of the reasons why this will NEVER be settled, and why the AWA scumbags will be treated as the opportunistic thieves that they are.

Their cry throughout the merger process was "Keep your eye on the prize." I wonder why?

Nice. Actually our cry throughout the acquisition process was "Why did Doug tie our skiff to the Titanic?"

More court time for us then, is it? How many more arbitrations, defeats, injunctions, and damage awards will it take for you to understand that the process was fair, final & binding?

My favorite quote from A Knights Tale lately? Adhemar: You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?




 
I was a revenue passenger on Cactus the day the merger was announced. I remember asking the gate agent what Doug was smoking when he dreamed up this little corporate disaster. I have a couple of friends at East but the industry probably would have been better off had USAir finally closed the doors back in '05.

Revisionist history and name-calling are frequently the last gasps of someone on the wrong side of the argument. Flyunder has reached that sad state.
 
FlyUnder:

I'm not thrilled when I am sitting on a hard 15 or 16 playing blackjack. Especially when the dealer is showing a face card or ten. I agreed to the rules and the results of the game when I put my money on the table. I compare it to binding arbitration. The result stands. Although I am not usually thrilled with the results I agreed to the process.
East guys reming me of Nicky (Joe Pesci's character) from Casino. Throwing the overcard back in the dealer's face and demanding another one. The east guys called the pit boss over (the federal judge) to complain about the results and the pit boss upholds the decision from the dealer (Nic award).
 
Latest from Holly Hegeman's PlaneBusiness:

Judge Wake Issues Permanent Injunction Against USAPA
As if there is not enough going on this week, I could write an entire column on the permanent injunction that came down this week from U.S. District Judge Neil Wake concerning the lawsuit involving pilots from the old America West and pilots from the old US Airways.
Here is the pertinent legal language from the order itself:

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED in No. CV 08-1633
PHX-NVW in favor of the Plaintiffs and the class of all pilots employed by US Airways,
Inc., in September 2008 who were on the America West seniority list on September 20, 2005, that Defendant US Airline Pilots Association and its officers, committees, representatives, agents, and all persons in active concert and participation with them are permanently enjoined and ordered to:

A. Immediately, and in good faith, make all reasonable efforts to negotiate and
implement a single collective bargaining agreement with US Airways that will
implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms;
B. Make all reasonable efforts to support and defend the seniority rights provided
by or arising from the Nicolau Award in negotiations with US Airways; and C. Not negotiate for separate collective bargaining agreements for the separate pilot groups, but rather negotiate for a single collective bargaining agreement for both pilot groups that incorporates the Nicolau Award. This injunction does not restrain USAPA from pursuing its rights under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, consistent with the previous sentence.
​
Short and sweet? US Airways West pilots win, Nicolau Award stands, and the US Airways East pilots who started USAPA as an attempt to skirt the Nicolau Seniority Award now find themselves with no reason for existing.
There is much more to the story, and after we're done with earnings, you can bet your favorite seniority list we are going to revisit this whole mess. But essentially, Judge Wake eviscerated the braintrust at USAPA with his ruling.
Wonder if enough US Airways East pilots will now come to their senses and work with the US Airways West pilots to ensure the pilot group is a strong and credible organization -- led by members who are also strong and credible. Or is the braintrust at USAPA going to continue to act in a manner that suggests they are basically mentally unstable -- much less credible?
As I said, more on all this, and why it is crucial the pilot group at the airline get its act together sooner rather than later, after the second quarter earnings extravaganza is over.
 
With all the ill feelings from East to West and West to East, are there any West guys who would actually want a base out east? Everyone is worried about losing their career expectations, but with all this animosity, I find it difficult to think that we would ever see an East/West crew in the same aircraft. Just an honest question from a furloughed 3rd lister.
 
FlyUnder said:
This Company did an about face just prior to September o4, stopped a major expansion in South and Latin America, and closed down a major hub expansion in FLL. The ONLY thing they went after during the 2nd bankruptcy was the employee contracts. The target we were told from day one was the LOW BALL AWA contract. We were told that we HAD to match the AWA contract almost exactly.

After the merger was announced it came out that AWA and the company had been talking since PRIOR to the bankruptcy filing. That is correct - PRIOR. It became very obvious that Parker had been back-dooring the shots for some time. In addition to the Captain jobs lost due to the contract changes, US Airways parked 60 aircraft as a DIRECT result of the merger.

All of these jobs were HELD by US Airways pilots and are now being TRANSFERRED to AWA pilots by virtue of a flawed and corrupt system. Just ONE example - It took ALPA 18 MONTHS before even setting the PID date, because AWA couldn't come up with an accurate seniority list. (For reference - The entire Delta/NWA process took about 18 months from start to finish!)

This is just one of the reasons why this will NEVER be settled, and why the AWA scumbags will be treated as the opportunistic thieves that they are.

Their cry throughout the merger process was "Keep your eye on the prize." I wonder why?

FlyUnder
Click to expand...
Can you please create some links to the info you are citing above? I'm sure everything you are saying is absolutely true...even though none of us have heard any of it until now, but I'd like to see the official source. No offense, of course.
 
FlyUnder said:
This is just one of the reasons why this will NEVER be settled, and why the AWA scumbags will be treated as the opportunistic thieves that they are.
Click to expand...

It will be settled, no doubt about it, the rule of law will ultimately trump an unruley mob and abusive majority. No need rehashing the merger or the arguments, there was plenty of time for that during the arbitration with over 3000 pages of testimony. You may not like it, but the Nicolau award is the integrated system seniority list at LCC and it will be implemented.
 
Flyunder's memory must be failing him. FLL was a FOCUS CITY and the carribean expansion was burning cash at a horrendous rate. He conveniently leaves out Dr. Bronner's strong-arm tactics which had more effect than anything Parker had done. Maybe Bronner shaped the attitude of the east pilot's more than they are willing to admit.
 
FlyUnder said:
This Company did an about face just prior to September o4, stopped a major expansion in South and Latin America, and closed down a major hub expansion in FLL. The ONLY thing they went after during the 2nd bankruptcy was the employee contracts. The target we were told from day one was the LOW BALL AWA contract. We were told that we HAD to match the AWA contract almost exactly.

After the merger was announced it came out that AWA and the company had been talking since PRIOR to the bankruptcy filing. That is correct - PRIOR. It became very obvious that Parker had been back-dooring the shots for some time. In addition to the Captain jobs lost due to the contract changes, US Airways parked 60 aircraft as a DIRECT result of the merger.

All of these jobs were HELD by US Airways pilots and are now being TRANSFERRED to AWA pilots by virtue of a flawed and corrupt system. Just ONE example - It took ALPA 18 MONTHS before even setting the PID date, because AWA couldn't come up with an accurate seniority list. (For reference - The entire Delta/NWA process took about 18 months from start to finish!)

This is just one of the reasons why this will NEVER be settled, and why the AWA scumbags will be treated as the opportunistic thieves that they are.

Their cry throughout the merger process was "Keep your eye on the prize." I wonder why?

FlyUnder
Click to expand...

Where did you get your facts on that one? Total BS
 
Trogdor, I would like to think that professional pilots would get over themselves enough to do their jobs; however if an FO of has a problem with the capt they should remove themselves from the the trip. Or the capt will do it for them. And vice versa. If a crewmember is playing political games; at least in my cockpit, we will make some changes and move on. It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. If I get recalled, I'll get busy doing my job. I've not been impressed by this scam of a "union" but when I show up for a trip I will do so assuming the best. If some guy can't deal with the fact of what "side" I was or am on, that's his(or her's) problem. It's time to put the real issues in front of this group. This BS will have stop sometime, I just hope there is still an airline to go back to. Good luck to all.
 
m80drvr said:
Just what jobs have been transferred to the west. As I see it west pilots that were working before the merger and now on the street while UNEMPLOYED east pilot are now working.
Click to expand...

The west pilot's are on the street because the WEST flying went away. LAS downsized by 75%, and PHX by 20%. This is why.

What the AWA pilots WANTED to do was find a home on EAST aircraft when WEST flying was cut, at the expense of US Airways pilots.

FlyUnder
 
FlyUnder said:
The west pilot's are on the street because the WEST flying went away. LAS downsized by 75%, and PHX by 20%. This is why.
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You have zero credibility. LAS flying has decreased %30.
What the AWA pilots WANTED to do was find a home on EAST aircraft when WEST flying was cut, at the expense of US Airways pilots.
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What we wanted was for the furloughs to come from the bottom of the seniority list. What YOU want is to recover your bankruptcy-decimated careers on our backs.

It stings when the law isn't on your side but men of integrity manage to learn and move on. Something to keep in mind.
 
TWA Dude said:
It stings when the law isn't on your side
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Dude,

The USAPA lawyers (and the membership too apparently) are well-versed in Law School Day 1's lesson: When the law is against you, argue the facts. When the facts are against you, argue the law. And when the law AND the facts are against you, lie, lie, lie.

They are going to appeal, again and they are going to get beyotch-slapped, again. The number they will owe the Westies will just keep growing.
 
FlyUnder said:
And this will not go anything like the AWA thieves think it will. No doubt about it.

FlyUnder
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You guys were within days of walking the street. Calling AWA pilots "thieves" is a another joke. Actually, 99.9% of us wanted nothing to do with a company like USAir. We had no choice in the matter. But, Judge Wake has now ruled and the Nic is the list, so get over it and move on to a new contract.
 
FlyUnder said:
And this will not go anything like the AWA thieves think it will. No doubt about it.

FlyUnder
Click to expand...

They're not the thieves, they haven't been found playing outside the rules of fair play by a jury. The thieves are those who refuse to live up to their responsibilities and use an abusive majority to steal the seniority rights of a minority group. Thieves most accurately describes USAPA and the unprincipled mob that supports it.

Luckily we live in a land ruled by law and due process so the seniority theft perpetrated by USAPA will not stand. The Nicolau award will be implemented and the thieves will be required to pay damages to the west pilots they harmed by denying them their rightful seniority.
 
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Funny thing is, the former USAir guys "think" that folks at other airlines side with them. I have found exactly the opposite to be true. I had a former USAIR FO on the jumpseat and we started to talk about it and he started the "i've been at USAir 19 years and am still an FO and am next to a 20XX hire at AWA blah, blah, blah" I let him go for a while and then asked him why it took so long to upgrade at USAir? Was it because of AWA?

I then asked him if it was hard to fly with Captains who gave away SCope, workrules, basically the hope of a career to save their pensions a few years back? Parking hundreds of planes, watching RJ's grow an enormous amount, thats why you are an FO still!Look no further than your USAir, ALPA brothers junior. AWA had nothing to do with your career progression.
 
nwaredtail said:
Funny thing is, the former USAir guys "think" that folks at other airlines side with them. I have found exactly the opposite to be true. I had a former USAIR FO on the jumpseat and we started to talk about it and he started the "i've been at USAir 19 years and am still an FO and am next to a 20XX hire at AWA blah, blah, blah" I let him go for a while and then asked him why it took so long to upgrade at USAir? Was it because of AWA?

I then asked him if it was hard to fly with Captains who gave away SCope, workrules, basically the hope of a career to save their pensions a few years back? Parking hundreds of planes, watching RJ's grow an enormous amount, thats why you are an FO still!Look no further than your USAir, ALPA brothers junior. AWA had nothing to do with your career progression.
Click to expand...

You are right on target......​
 
nwaredtail said:
Funny thing is, the former USAir guys "think" that folks at other airlines side with them. I have found exactly the opposite to be true. I had a former USAIR FO on the jumpseat and we started to talk about it and he started the "i've been at USAir 19 years and am still an FO and am next to a 20XX hire at AWA blah, blah, blah" I let him go for a while and then asked him why it took so long to upgrade at USAir? Was it because of AWA?

I then asked him if it was hard to fly with Captains who gave away SCope, workrules, basically the hope of a career to save their pensions a few years back? Parking hundreds of planes, watching RJ's grow an enormous amount, thats why you are an FO still!Look no further than your USAir, ALPA brothers junior. AWA had nothing to do with your career progression.
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Thanks red tail...We argue these points with the East, but they only see things on sighted "OUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY".

Glad Judge Wake saw thru their BS and set the NIC etched in stone.

bb
 
I said it before and it needs repeating again.

Put up a fence of the West's choosing that will not allow any East pilot to take any seats the West pilots now own. Any duration will do 10 years 15, whatever. Now at the same time allow West pilots to bid East using DOH.

What this results in is no West pilot losing his job to an East pilot, EVER. West pilots capturing East attrition using DOH.


So the question remains who is really trying to take flying?

Awaiting the integrity filled responses.
 

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