News just reported CRJ crash...

[T-Gates]

Anybody think that maybe they had a problem with one engine and in a panic shut the wrong (good) engine down, leaving them with no engines? And at FL410 they could not get the good engine to light off again? Just my 2 cents. I hope they find out soon what happened so this can be resolved quickly and prevent any other future incidents.

I sure as hell hope not, but lets all hold off on useless speculation. The NTSB holds all the info, if it's that cut and dry, we'll all know soon enough.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,

Just speculating here, but if the crew lost an engine at FL410, wouldn't they have plenty of time to identify the correct engine? And even if they didn't still have plenty of time to realize their error and correct it? Also, I find it surprising that people would say that the crew "panicked" I just can't find myself believing that theory. It was a tragedy no matter what the cause, and in time we will have better information and hopefully it will be information that can be used to prevent a similar mishap in the future.

Godspeed to the crew

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Publishers]

speculation

There are many things that could have accounted for the accident and while speculation in the media is not good, the fact is that pilots can and will talk intelligently about causes and that is the good kind of speculation.

For what it is worth: Let's assume that we had an engine fire in #1 at altitude. We start down going through the emergency list. Fire bottle fired but it does not extinguish the fire and eventually the fire causes some control and fuel issues to the remaining engine at 13000. I do not believe you can start the APU until a lower altitude so that might have some remote effect. Another issue may have related to descent speeds trying to keep up speed for restart.

We once had two engines go to flight idle in a Citation when the fuel ports froze.

Remember what we all know. Accidents are usually the result of a number of things going wrong at the same time or in progress. Not just isolated incidents.

 

[dondk]

C'mon.. They (who ever you want to think) have to point some finger at the crew.. So I guess they are questioning the decision to cruise at 410. The fact that it did not relight (either engine) for 40,000' and about 100 NM means little. It was 410 and that is the problem...

Lets not state that the crew did their job all the way to the ground, lets not state they tried in vain to get it back, let's not state that we (all pilots) lost 2 fine aviatiors on that evening.

I really don't care for the spin's the NTSB is putting on this. Start the spin by the crew did a great job and the NTSB will make sure these two pilots will not be just a statistic.

 

[T-Gates]

C'mon.. They (who ever you want to think) have to point some finger at the crew.. So I guess they are questioning the decision to cruise at 410. The fact that it did not relight (either engine) for 40,000' and about 100 NM means little. It was 410 and that is the problem...

Lets not state that the crew did their job all the way to the ground, lets not state they tried in vain to get it back, let's not state that we (all pilots) lost 2 fine aviatiors on that evening.

I really don't care for the spin's the NTSB is putting on this. Start the spin by the crew did a great job and the NTSB will make sure these two pilots will not be just a statistic.

Well said Don......

 

[suupah]

If you lose an engine, isn't easy to stall the other engine when the nose gets crooked. But it isn't like these guys were amateurs and also they had a long time to get them relit.

I am going to assume that they were both skillled pilots who did everything they could but they encountered a weird anomoly.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Catyaak-

You gotta go back to the Krusty avatar; it's how I always picture you now. It nicely punctuates the stinging wit in your posts.

 

[CatYaaak]

C'mon.. They (who ever you want to think) have to point some finger at the crew.. So I guess they are questioning the decision to cruise at 410....
......I really don't care for the spin's the NTSB is putting on this. Start the spin by the crew did a great job and the NTSB will make sure these two pilots will not be just a statistic.

Sorry, but the NTSB doesn't "spin", have any reason to, or done so in this case. You're drawing an inference from one of the things they said was of "interest" to them...the altitude, since it is at the edge of the a/cs certified envelope....something they may eventually discount as a factor. Essentially, you're the one who's spinning, not them, because you're emotionally involved in it. That's why the NTSB is ultimately tasked with these investigations, and not the FAA, the airlines, or pilots...because they can remain detached.

Human factors, crew performance, and decision-making are always examined. No comment has been made by the NTSB regarding any of these, and they aren't going to say anything was "bad" (causal) until the puzzle has been pieced together, nor will they declare anything to be "good" (including crew performance and decisions) until that time. Like it or not, this avenue of investigation, along with all the others, is just another part of the fishbowl-world, big-boy/girl profession we've chosen.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Sorry CatYaaak, but I can't allow you to let the NTSB off the hook, twice.
The NTSB does spin...off the top of my head I can think of two accidents where the NTSB proceeded with the "Ready, Fire, Aim" mentality.

How long did the NTSB persist in a whispering campaign regarding the UA 737 COS accident, floating a crew suicide theory, Boeing's freak wind rotor theory, and walking down every other blind alley only to come up empty-handed after a rash of similiar accidents (COPA coming immediately to mind.) It took eleven, eleven other 73 accidents before the NTSB came to the startling conclusion, arrived at by the Brits years before, that the rudder could hard over.

While I wasn't a party to TW 800, I know people who principals in the investigation. The FAA and NTSB, from the outset, were dead set against the missile theory. Now, if it was a missile or not is irrelevant. At the end of the day, the NTSB decided that certain outcomes to the investigation were unacceptable, and that no investigatory time or effort would be expended on "unpopular" theories.

I'm no accident investigator or aeronautical engineer. But to me, a realitively low time pilot, the "most interesting thing" would exactly why a transport aircraft, operated well within its certified limits, decided to die.

 

[Crossky]

He's not confused at all....It was the RJ100 prototype doing post certification testing. 1993.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1993/930726-2.htm3

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X12882&ntsbno=CHI93MA276&akey=1


That registration # is now on a CRJ700

Edit.....Sorry English, I don't know what happened to the link. If you cut/paste the ntsb address it will work then.

Sorry, thanks for the clarification. That's what I get for not checking the facts myself before posting.

 

[Lear70]

Its not like its a brand new airplane and no one knows what it will do. It has been certified for F410 and has been there MANY times. The chalanger has been there MANY times. I doubt altitude alone was the problem. A 2 engine flame out on this airplane has to be 1:1,000,000. These engines are just too good to just shut down.

Oh I agree completely, just seems to be the direction someone is leaning for it to come out on our releases like it is...

Again, not speculating, just putting info out there for the inevitable discussion and would rather people have heard it from someone who works here rather than "someone's uncles' brother's cousin"; when it comes out like that people ALWAYS seem to think someone was hiding something...

 

[CatYaaak]

Sorry CatYaaak, but I can't allow you to let the NTSB off the hook, twice.
The NTSB does spin...off the top of my head I can think of two accidents where the NTSB proceeded with the "Ready, Fire, Aim" mentality.

How long did the NTSB persist in a whispering campaign regarding the UA 737 COS accident, floating a crew suicide theory, Boeing's freak wind rotor theory, and walking down every other blind alley only to come up empty-handed after a rash of similiar accidents (COPA coming immediately to mind.) It took eleven, eleven other 73 accidents before the NTSB came to the startling conclusion, arrived at by the Brits years before, that the rudder could hard over.

While I wasn't a party to TW 800, I know people who principals in the investigation. The FAA and NTSB, from the outset, were dead set against the missile theory. Now, if it was a missile or not is irrelevant. At the end of the day, the NTSB decided that certain outcomes to the investigation were unacceptable, and that no investigatory time or effort would be expended on "unpopular" theories.

I'm no accident investigator or aeronautical engineer. But to me, a realitively low time pilot, the "most interesting thing" would exactly why a transport aircraft, operated well within its certified limits, decided to die.

What you're telling me is that the NTSB, when answering questions regarding just one of many avenues of scentific investigation they are pursuing, somehow constitutes "spin", as if it were a criminal investigation and they a have a prime suspect. Their job is scientific, to walk down every "ally" blind or not, and investigators are assigned as such in every instance.

You're faulting them for being thorough, while at the same time wanting to find out "EXACTLY WHY a transport aircraft decided to die". I left out the "operated well within it's certified limits" part of your sentence, because you're stating as fact something that remains to be determined by them, or if it has been, revealed. You simply don't know that to be true, and in any scientific investigation in the early stages you assume nothing where variables can exist.

The NTSB never found that suicide was a factor in the CO incident, and the "whispering campaign" accusation is misplaced, since that one was originally floated somewhere by flight crews themselves and since such rumors abounded, investigators would be remiss not to consider it. A process that discounts such things leads to "official findings" along the lines of the Egyptian Aviation authorities blaming Boeing for the Egyptair 767 crash off Long Island, because their prime objective was to absolve the flight crew, still insisting that "Muslims don't commit suicide".

As far as the missile theory with TWA 800, that avenue would be primarily a criminal (FBI) or DOD investigation, which isn't the purview of the NTSB, and I believe those investigations "pursuing those unpopular theories" did run in tandem with the NTSB one. You can believe what you want with regards to conspiracy theories discounting the findings those other investigations, and that the NTSBs fuel tank finding was just a big smokescreen.

And the Brits?...well, they design airplanes and after they're finished, finally remember that it needs a cockpit, and kind of bolt one on top.

 

[EAP]

Well boys and gals, as usual, we're just gonna have to wait and see. Prophetic, I know, but true none the less. I have my own criticisms of the NTSB as of late, but they do a pretty thorough paper chase by the time all is said and done.

 

[JetCapt69]

AIN ONLINE article:

http://www.ainonline.com/weeklynews/AIN_weeklynews.html

October 19, 2004
Engines Flamed Out before Fatal Crash of Regional Jet
Both engines stalled at FL410 during last Thursday’s fatal Pinnacle Airlines repositioning flight from Little Rock, Ark., to Minneapolis, according to the NTSB. Both pilots died when their Bombardier CRJ200 regional jet crashed outside Jefferson City, Mo., at 9:21 p.m. local time into a residential neighborhood. No one on the ground was injured. NTSB investigators, still in the process of reading data from the airplane’s cockpit-voice and flight-data recorders, haven’t yet determined what caused the engines to quit. The 50-seat aircraft (S/N 7396, built in 2000) had 10,161 hours total time and its last major inspection revealed no major problems. However, pilots aborted the airplane’s last scheduled flight when, during taxi, an indicator light alerted the crew to a possible problem with the bleed-air system. Shortly afterward Pinnacle flew two mechanics to Little Rock to repair the 14th stage bleed-air route on the right engine, according to a Safety Board spokesman.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I guess I better brush up on my Double Engine Failure in Flight memory items.

 

[601Pilot]

Article in Aviation Daily

Engine Focus Likely For NTSB In Pinnacle CRJ-200 Crash
Aviation Daily

10/20/2004

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is examining the two GE CF34-3B1 turbofans powering the Pinnacle Airlines CRJ-200 that crashed during a repositioning flight last week to determine why both engines lost power.
The flight was en route from Little Rock, Ark., to Minneapolis Thursday evening when it crashed in a residential area of Jefferson City, Mo., (DAILY, Oct. 18). Maintainers worked on the plane earlier in the day after that same aircraft had an aborted takeoff from Little Rock.
The CRJ was cruising at 41,000 feet -- the maximum certified altitude for that plane -- when the first engine lost power. The pilot requested a lower altitude and descended to 24,000 feet. At 13,000 feet, the second engine failed. The last communication from the crew noted on the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder was at 9,000 feet when the crew said they had the airport beacon in sight and radar vectors were guiding the plane. The communication was with the Kansas City air traffic control center.
NTSB member Carol Carmody said that an initial examination of engines indicated they weren't running when they hit the ground. "This accident is unique. We don't know what other accidents may or may not be like it," she said. "We will be going over the engines very thoroughly."

 

[Mel Sharples]

I'm sure 300 hour FO wonderboy from Gulfstream was right on top of things during the emergency. I'm sure it was single pilot with a distraction for Captain Rhodes.

Nice. Pure class, dude. Don't even have all the facts, don't know these guys from your ass and you are going to figure out exactly what happened based on where they are from.

Care to bash them for race while you are at it? I'm sure they had to have more in their past you can criticize them for.

What distinguished places of business have you worked for, since you are perfect?

And I was praying for their souls. Maybe I should be praying for your's you heartless jackass.



.

 

[blade230]

Agreed, lequip is a complete Jackass/Prick.

 

[J32driver]

Moderators.... I would like to suggest the permanent banning of Lequip.

 

[Lequip]

Sorry but that wasn't my post. My account must have been logged on and somebody else posted it. I know I say some off the wall stuff to stir the pot here but I respect those that lost their lives in this crash. I see somebody already removed the post. Thank you for doing so!