News just reported CRJ crash...

[601Pilot]

Article in Aviation Daily

Engine Focus Likely For NTSB In Pinnacle CRJ-200 Crash
Aviation Daily

10/20/2004

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is examining the two GE CF34-3B1 turbofans powering the Pinnacle Airlines CRJ-200 that crashed during a repositioning flight last week to determine why both engines lost power.
The flight was en route from Little Rock, Ark., to Minneapolis Thursday evening when it crashed in a residential area of Jefferson City, Mo., (DAILY, Oct. 18). Maintainers worked on the plane earlier in the day after that same aircraft had an aborted takeoff from Little Rock.
The CRJ was cruising at 41,000 feet -- the maximum certified altitude for that plane -- when the first engine lost power. The pilot requested a lower altitude and descended to 24,000 feet. At 13,000 feet, the second engine failed. The last communication from the crew noted on the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder was at 9,000 feet when the crew said they had the airport beacon in sight and radar vectors were guiding the plane. The communication was with the Kansas City air traffic control center.
NTSB member Carol Carmody said that an initial examination of engines indicated they weren't running when they hit the ground. "This accident is unique. We don't know what other accidents may or may not be like it," she said. "We will be going over the engines very thoroughly."

 

[Mel Sharples]

I'm sure 300 hour FO wonderboy from Gulfstream was right on top of things during the emergency. I'm sure it was single pilot with a distraction for Captain Rhodes.

Nice. Pure class, dude. Don't even have all the facts, don't know these guys from your ass and you are going to figure out exactly what happened based on where they are from.

Care to bash them for race while you are at it? I'm sure they had to have more in their past you can criticize them for.

What distinguished places of business have you worked for, since you are perfect?

And I was praying for their souls. Maybe I should be praying for your's you heartless jackass.



.

 

[blade230]

Agreed, lequip is a complete Jackass/Prick.

 

[J32driver]

Moderators.... I would like to suggest the permanent banning of Lequip.

 

[Lequip]

Sorry but that wasn't my post. My account must have been logged on and somebody else posted it. I know I say some off the wall stuff to stir the pot here but I respect those that lost their lives in this crash. I see somebody already removed the post. Thank you for doing so!

 

[Rhoid]

Some new info from another board:



Excerpt from a pilot who works with the safety portion of the union:

"Because the plane was empty, the crew probably thought they could fly at 410 no problem. Well the plane stalled and dual engine flameout occured. They recovered around 330 and tried to relight the engines. They spent the next 24 or so minutes getting vectors from ATC. Relight never occured and it looks like it was due to the slow airspeed they were tying to relight at. It sounds like the NTSB will be implementing the rule that CRJ 100/200's are limited to 350. It is a very sad way to learn a lesson, but the 200's should not be up a 410. Sounds like the engines were melted because of the heavy loads of fuel passed through and not enough speed. No checklists were used in the entire 24 minute period. Pinnacle uses memory items."

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Some new info from another board:
Excerpt from a pilot who works with the safety portion of the union:
"Because the plane was empty, the crew probably thought they could fly at 410 no problem. Well the plane stalled and dual engine flameout occured. They recovered around 330 and tried to relight the engines. They spent the next 24 or so minutes getting vectors from ATC. Relight never occured and it looks like it was due to the slow airspeed they were tying to relight at. It sounds like the NTSB will be implementing the rule that CRJ 100/200's are limited to 350. It is a very sad way to learn a lesson, but the 200's should not be up a 410. Sounds like the engines were melted because of the heavy loads of fuel passed through and not enough speed. No checklists were used in the entire 24 minute period. Pinnacle uses memory items."

I'm not saying that I agree with this, but hopefully they used the QRH after the initial memory items for Double Engine Failure, because that is one long a$s procedure. Also, if they went to single engine driftdown speed (Vfs +30) that probably isnt fast enough to do a relight.

 

[efiscompmon]

And until now I thought that my Rhoid Rage was from tight, damp undies. Didn't know it was from the tool above.

-----

Yes there are memory items, followed by a CHECKLIST--big red tab. Hard to miss.

NTSB doesn't implement ANY rules--my private pilot applicants know that.

Engines were melted? WTF?

I know almost every person on PCL's Air safety committee and their chair once flew as my FO--none of them would say sh!t if they had a mouth full of it.

Clearly it's more than your mouth--you're full of it.

 

[Rhoid]

Don't shoot the messenger, I copied from another message board pal.

 

[Palerider957]

If the engines are found to be at fault, this has tremendous implications in a world full of CRJ's. At ASA we have certainly had our share of probs. with the GE engines.

I'm concerned that (like the NYC Airbus) crash, they will quickly blame the pilots. It's easier to blame two dead guys, then ground a world full of airplanes. I have a feeling this investigation will get nasty.

 

[efiscompmon]

care to source that message board?

 

[Relic01]

Godspeed to both of these guys. May their sould rest in peace. These are difficult times and they require strength in grieving with our colleagues at Pinnacle and the families of these gentlemen. However, we must never forget what caused this tragedy, we have a very dangerous job. I have heard new hires tell me that this is the easiest job they have ever had...not so. This job is dangerous and very difficult. We can never rest on our laurels or become complacent.

There should be a forum for the safety issues within our industry without bashing.

...to be continued.

 

[Lear70]

Flamebait

Don't shoot the messenger, I copied from another message board pal.

No you didn't... at least not from any message board associated with Pinnacle Airlines or our Safety Committee. This isn't ANYWHERE on our ALPA board or our private message board, so I have to call "BULLSH*T" on you buddy, and pretty uninformed B.S. at that because,

1. Engines don't spontaneously "Melt". If it was operating at 41,0 using max climb thrust, engine temperatures would be about 100 deg C below red line which is probably another 300 to 400 degrees below where damage starts occurring, not to mention most of the moving parts in there are titanium which wouldn't "melt" until about 1500 deg C. Do you even know what the normal operating temp of a turbine engine is? Oh, I forgot, you only fly bugsmashers.

2. The aircraft doesn't have to be accelerated to spool the engine up to do a relight if you're using a "starter assisted" relight.

3. Info from the paper says people on the ground saw landing lights - that requires AC electrical power which means the APU more than likely WAS running, but even if it wasn't and the people on the ground are not remembering clearly, the checklist VERY CLEARLY gives the windmilling relight flight envelop of which I have no doubt Captain Rhodes would have followed correctly.

You don't know anything, stop spreading smack or quote your source.

 

[Crossky]

I'm not a crash expert, but I've been thinking about the possible causes of this and would like to share them. This is a tragedy and I don't mean to disrespect or demean the cerw for anything they did or didn't do. I'll try not to speculate on that too much.

the NTSB is now saying that both engines stalled or failed at FL410, and the aircraft's 15th stage bleed system was worked on by mechanics after an aborted TO in Little Rock after the crew received a 14th stage bleed overheat warning.

I don't have a CRJ200 MEL in front of me, but I assume maint MEL'D the 14th stage bleed system, which provides bleed air to the cowl and wing anti-ice systems. I assume they rendered the 14th stage shut off valves (SOV) closed, possibly placarding the cockpit switches and physically safety wiring the SOV's closed. I propose that the cowl and wing anti-ice was inoperative per the MEL. This means the crew had to avoid icing conditions in flight and be dispatched safely on a route and altitude which would permit them to avoid icing conditions.

If they encountered icing condtions and were unable to use the cowl anti-ice, that would endanger the engines.

Additionally, another scenario is that the CRJ200 has a limitation that if you operate it above FL400 then one air conditioning unit (PACK) or cowl anti-ice must be selected on for each engine. If somehow one or both PACK's failed at FL410 the aircraft would be operating in violation of this limitation, especially because the cowl anti-ice would be inoperative. I don't know the exact reason for this limitation, I asked during training and the instructor didn't know. I guess it would have to do with the engine needing to get rid of excess air at that altitude to enable combustion to continue. I don't believe dispatch would have filed the flight at FL410 if they had read the MEL and been doing their homework.

The PACK's have fewer protections if operated in manual mode. With two pilots and no passengers at FL410, it would've been a cold one and the PACK's would need a high output duct supply temp to warm the cabin. According to my system class notes automatic pack shutdown occurs if the pack outlet temp exceed 93 - 103 degrees C while being operated in manual mode. The PACK's have a high temp shutdown protection in Automatic mode.

Additionally, if somehow the aircraft was operated with one PACK inoperative at FL410, that is another limitation violation. The maximum single PACK altitude is FL250. I assume this is for the capability of the aircraft to have satisfactory pressurization, my fear is it also has to do with the operating pressure of the PACK. My systems notes tell me that during dual pack operation the pressure delivered to the packs is regulated to 30 psi on the ground, 41 psi for single pack operations, and the pack will shutdown with a pressure of greater than 51 psi.

If they encountered icing this theory accounts for a dual engine loss, if they lost one pack it proposes why they lost one engine and is murkey on the second loss. I have no idea why they were not able to restart the engines.

I can't believe another crash happened in MO. Continued thoughts and prayers go out for those affected by the Corporate Airlines crash.

 

[Russ]

Icing at 410 is unlikely.