News just reported CRJ crash...

[chperplt]

Here's another update


Associated Press


JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - Federal investigators said Saturday they were studying whether altitude contributed to a loss of engine power that sent a 50-seat jet crashing into a residential area of Missouri's capital city.

No one on the ground was hurt when the twin-engine Pinnacle Airlines CRJ2, with only the pilot and co-pilot aboard, crashed at 10:15 p.m. Thursday in a space between three houses in an eastern Jefferson City neighborhood about two miles from the city's airport.

The pilots' remains were recovered Saturday and taken to a mortuary, said Carol Carmody, a member of the National Transportation Safety Board. Officials of Memphis, Tenn.-based Pinnacle have identified the pilots as Capt. Jesse Rhodes, of Palm Harbor, Fla., and First Officer Peter Cesarz, of Helotes, Texas.

Carmody said preliminary data from the flight data recorder showed the jet was flying at its maximum altitude of 41,000 at 9:51 p.m., when it was about 100 miles south of Jefferson City. Both engines lost power about four minutes later, she said.

Carmody said there was no clear indication of why the engines failed. She also said there was no evidence of an in-flight fire.

Carmody said exceeding maximum altitude could cause engine failure, and that investigators did not know why the plane had been flying at 41,000 feet.

"That's the most interesting thing," Carmody said.

The jet had taken off from Little Rock, Ark., and was en route to Minneapolis. Pinnacle Airlines flies regional routes as part of Northwest Airlines' Northwest Airlink.

NTSB officials said Friday that the jet had aborted a scheduled flight from Little Rock earlier Thursday after an indicator light went on for its bleed-air system. The bleed-air system pulls hot, compressed air from the engines to heat other components of the plane. An airplane indicator light typically signifies a problem.

The plane underwent maintenance work before taking off for Minneapolis Thursday night.

Carmody said the plane's cockpit was severely damaged, and most of the controls were in bad shape. She said a final determination of what caused the crash would take several months.

The crash site is about two miles from the Jefferson City airport.

Carmody said those families who had to evacuate after the crash should be able to return home by mid-week.

---

Information from: Daily Capital News, http://www.newstribune.com

 

[BoilerUP]

Carmody said preliminary data from the flight data recorder showed the jet was flying at its maximum altitude of 41,000 at 9:51 p.m., when it was about 100 miles south of Jefferson City. Both engines lost power about four minutes later, she said.

Carmody said there was no clear indication of why the engines failed. She also said there was no evidence of an in-flight fire.

Carmody said exceeding maximum altitude could cause engine failure, and that investigators did not know why the plane had been flying at 41,000 feet.

"That's the most interesting thing," Carmody said.

What is the certified ceiling of the CRJ? I have a buddy who interned at Independence and he said the 50 seater didn't like much above the high 20s unless it was cool and light, and even then it was kind of a pig. This part of the article sounds like BS to me... "They flew too high, so the engines quit."

 

[mmmdonut]

That's why if it aint Embraer, it aint..... going... or something.


ERJ all the way, baby!!!!

 

[N813CA]

Max service ceiling is 41,000 ft.

 

[BoilerUP]

DOH! Shoulda read the article again, the answer was right there. Thanks!

Still seems kinda odd though...the plane was at its max ceiling, and all of the sudden both engines quit. I presume CRJs get flown at 410 on a somewhat regular basis, and if airplanes just flamed out all the time the feds would have known it by now. Geez...More speculation on the part of the media.

Once again, my respects to the crew and the whole Flagship family for their loss.

 

[N813CA]

They do fly at 41,000 feet, but not very often. If they are empty it is easy to do, but with pax on board you probably will not make it to 41,000 ft, but yes I agree, it would have happend by now if that was the case.

 

[Lear70]

41,0 must have something to do with it... or at least the NTSB or FAA must think so.

The company just put out a bulletin on every flight release system-wide that ops above FL 37,0 are prohibited until further notice.

 

[Crossky]

No, there was a fatal CRJ crash when the aircraft was flight testing.
My understanding is that the pilots were doing full stall tests.
The aircraft was fitted with a drag (anti spin) chute.
There are 2 levers for the chute: one to deploy the drag chute (to get out of the spin/stall), and one to releast the chute from the airplane.
The story I heard was that after the crew entered the stall, one of the pilots pulled the release handle instead of the deploy handle.

I think you might be confused a bit, I think this crash was one of the global express during flight testing during about '93-'95. CRJ's were already flying and certified. Heard the stall spin chute was not packed properly.

Up in Canada they crashed one a while back with no fatalities, and in Europe (Brit Air comes to mind) they crashed one a while back with fatalities.

The NTSB site is valuable as always.

Let's keep their families, friends, and company in our thoughts and prayers.

 

[NJA Capt]

I think you might be confused a bit, I think this crash was one of the global express ...

He's not confused at all....It was the RJ100 prototype doing post certification testing. 1993.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/1993/930726-2.htm3

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X12882&ntsbno=CHI93MA276&akey=1


That registration # is now on a CRJ700

Edit.....Sorry English, I don't know what happened to the link. If you cut/paste the ntsb address it will work then.

 

[English]

Hey NJA Capt, linky no worky.

 

[73belair]

41,0 must have something to do with it... or at least the NTSB or FAA must think so.

The company just put out a bulletin on every flight release system-wide that ops above FL 37,0 are prohibited until further notice.

Its not like its a brand new airplane and no one knows what it will do. It has been certified for F410 and has been there MANY times. The chalanger has been there MANY times. I doubt altitude alone was the problem. A 2 engine flame out on this airplane has to be 1:1,000,000. These engines are just too good to just shut down.

 

[Cessna Queen]

latest article re Pinnacle crash

http://wcco.com/localnews/local_story_291111740.htmllatest article reinnacle crash

 

[CatYaaak]

Geez...More speculation on the part of the media.
.

The media wasn't speculating. The article was quoting the NTSB spokesman, and their job involves a process of educated speculation to form avenues of investigation. All the NTSB guy said regarding the a/c being at FL410 was that "it was the most interesting thing". I'm sure that it's always noticed and they become interested (and it therefore becomes one of those avenues of investigation) if any accident a/c is operating at the limit of it's certified perf envelope just before things go wrong.

This would be especially true with regards to it's max alt certification with the seriously-degraded performance, and in the case of jets, the hostile environment to crew and systems you find there. They wouldn't be doing their jobs very well if they weren't keeping that in mind, even if it turns out not to be a factor.

He'd say that, because they are fully aware that 99% of CRJ/CFE-34 hours are flown at Flight Levels in the 20's and 30's. The fleet-wide, historical experience up at FL410 is very, very limited. The "personal testaments" we see here that the aircraft and engines "Do just fine" and is "Easily hand-flown" at FL410 notwithstanding, it's axiomatic that aircraft perform differently on different days depending on conditions, especially up there where increases in temps relative to ISA can degrade perf in a non-linear fashion, where turb and shear becomes a major concern, and where ultra-low SATs can do bad things to systems that don't manifest themselves at more comfortable ones. We don't know what the flight conditions were that night at FL410, or during the climb.

Frankly, it's unsupported speculation to declare the altitude issue isn't important just because it went there for certification or a few have done it once or twice, and somewhat irresponsible to imply that CRJs/CFE-34s routinely and happily do it. I only have a couple thousand hours in CRJs, far less than some of you here, granted, but in my experience (including many lightweight, mx-ferry flights) for all it's good points, the thing's a dog above FL350 anytime, and at any FL when it's ISA+8 or higher. There's just no getting around the fact that it wasn't designed as a high-altitude performer, so it's rarely operated at it's certified limit.

All that being said, you can be sure they are going through all the systems, the mx procedures performed not just prior to the flight (most likely THE biggest thing they are "interested in"), but anything engine/fuel system related as far back as they can find. No doubt they descended on the last fuel farm/truck they used looking for contaminants. And like it or not, they're looking at the crew and their performance in a detached way that's hard for us to do here, since they were our brothers.

We can sit here and run through every possiblilty and yet they might find something completely out of the blue, like those guys were unlucky enough to have ingested the world's highest flying flock of geese unseen in the dark, or they took a one-in-a-billion meteor strike in the tail. Or someone that's happened too many times before with a/c just out of mx; a wrench forgotton in the wrong place, cannon plugs not secured, something not safety wired. We just don't know yet.

If anything, this terrible loss has already provoked discussions about things (which may have not played a role in this accident's cause) we might have become complacent on, or never known, because they ARE the speculative "what-if's". Such discussions are usually beneficial, they're normal, and they DON'T do a disservice to the crew and process, or feed a Rumor Mill, if they remain thoughtful. Case in point; someone has brought up the limited training crews at a lot regional airlines receive in high-altitude flight, which even if it wasn't a factor here, focuses our thoughts about what our own training and limitations might be. Same thing when someone else pointed to his thoughts of taking an aircraft just out of mx.

It's all food for thought, and up until the point someone without the facts begins pretending to know what happened or assigning blame in this accident whether that be to crew, mx, handlers, or even mngmt, such focus and the exchange of even tangental info can serve a good purpose, or at least a reminder in the face of a tragic event.

 

[efiscompmon]

Catyaak--have enjoyed your posts. But the use of "axiomatic" was truly over the top! Kudos on the word power!

BTW, ever had your cat get stuck in a glass? One of mine did a few months ago. Funny stuff.

 

[xjavro85]

Anybody think that maybe they had a problem with one engine and in a panic shut the wrong (good) engine down, leaving them with no engines? And at FL410 they could not get the good engine to light off again? Just my 2 cents. I hope they find out soon what happened so this can be resolved quickly and prevent any other future incidents.