New Mesaba Deadline

[redflyer65]

There is no hiding behind anything. These are the facts...

Has Mesaba lost an entire base? NO

Has Mesaba lost >50% of their fleet? NO

 

[WMUSIGPI]

and we thank you for that!

No problem.

 

[Spinn555]

There is no hiding behind anything. These are the facts...

Has Mesaba lost an entire base? NO

Has Mesaba lost >50% of their fleet? NO

Has Mesaba closed bases...YES!...RHI, CWA, CVG, and MEM Avro

50% of the fleet gone? YES! Mesaba had 99 aircraft at one point. Soon to be only 49 saabs.


Redflyer, your are 0-2.

 

[AvroJockey]

There is no hiding behind anything. These are the facts...

Has Mesaba lost an entire base? NO

Has Mesaba lost >50% of their fleet? NO

Well, actually, at the time we lost 2 bases (CWA and RHI). Last year, we lost CVG, and we are just about to loose the Avro MEM base.

So we have lost 3.5 domiciles and about 40% of our fleet (with more to come)...seems to be pretty close, and I don't see your pilot group wanting to scratch our backs anytime soon!

 

[rhino3040]

I hope for the best for all Mesaba guys, it sucks that many friends of mine are losing there jobs. Godspeed

 

[xjhawk]

back and forth you go....i think the unions will figure it out, since they know the contracts better than you two,,,,seriously, why make the rift between mesaba and pinnacle evn worse......goes to show you how ALPA runs its game. ALPA allows its members to hate one another just as the managements want.

 

[DoinTime]

Well, actually, at the time we lost 2 bases (CWA and RHI). Last year, we lost CVG, and we are just about to loose the Avro MEM base.

Outstation domiciles are notoriously unstable regardless of what airline you fly for. There was once a time when almost all Express I pilots were based in outstations. Guess what??? They all got closed, almost 40 of them. Thats just part of the buisness.

Elimination of certain fleet types will also result in pilots being discplaced. Not only is the MEM Avro domicile closing but shortly thereafter MSP and DTW Avro domiciles will close as well. A sad fact of this industry.


I dont think anyone doubts the hardships currently being felt by the Mesaba pilot group. The circumstances of these hardships though bear very little resemblence to those that gave rise to LOA 21. This is evident even in an uneducated read of the agreement. Paragraph "G" of LOA 21 was never intended to be a revolving door between our two pilot groups.

 

[redflyer65]

Spinn, You are comparing RHI and CWA to a complete HUB closing?

Ok, whatever.

 

[Crizz]

Spinn, You are comparing RHI and CWA to a complete HUB closing?

Ok, whatever.

So, CVG and MEM dont count?

Its no secret the mainstream 9E pilot group lacks class. Carry on...

 

[DoinTime]

So, CVG and MEM dont count?

CVG was an outstation and the XJ MEM pilot domicile will not be closing any time soon.

 

[Dodge]

So, CVG and MEM dont count?

Its no secret the mainstream 9E pilot group lacks class. Carry on...

Ties??? You mean we have to wear ties??? They won't go with my backpack walking in the terminal.

Of course 9E pilots don't want to face the fact that Mesaba deserves to get the other end of the LOA handed back. They don't want to get pushed to the bottom of their own list......like some of the FO's at XJ did.

Bottom line is that it is better to get furloughed at XJ and do something outside aviation than it is to work at 9E. Many former XJ pilot to NW pilot to 9E pilot to real estate agents have said so. Of course, there will be many XJ pilots fighting like crazty to make XJ a little more like 9E so they can keep their jobs. And that is a shame.

 

[TurboAWD]

You guys are some serious pricks. I hope the mainstream XJ pilots don't have this attitude. Most 9E pilots don't even KNOW about the agreement, much less have an opinion.

If the parameters are met, and the XJ MEC requests implementation, and the 9E pilot group fails to meet the requirments of the agreement, then you can complain.

Until then, sit down, shut up, and deal with the crap your mgmt is trying to shove down your throats. You are getting screwed by mgmt, not other pilots.

You don't really believe XJ will be a 49 saab operator (at least for long), do you?

Turbo

 

[redflyer65]

You guys must be on crack. Let me give you the history of the LOA.....

When this was inacted, Express Airlines II, which was the northern base of Express was completely shut down. They flew out of MSP. The entire hub and more than 50% (it may have been closer to 70%) of the aircraft were gone in a single day. Mesaba picked up the entire northern structure and aircraft along with it.

When has the same senerio happened at Mesaba? And don't tell me about CWA and RHI closing, because its not even close. Yes, Mesaba may have had 99 planes at one point, but have they ever lost more than 50% of those to Pinnacle?

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but its really not even close. And some people seem to have there own take on history. I am all for the Mesaba pilots. Jinglepants has taken a perfectly good company and decapitated it.

Doin Time is exactly right about what happened recently when Mesaba lost a chunk of Saabs. Wychor agreed that it didn't meet the threshold.....
But the Pinnacle MEC thought that it would be a great idea (and Wychor agreed) to see if Pinnacle management would allow preferential interviews. There were a handful of Mesaba guys who set up interviews and then turned out to be no-shows. It was basically a slap in the face to the PCL MEC.

I don't want to start a debate on if or why a Mesaba pilot would want to work at PCL. Thats each individuals own personal decision. But you don't set up an interview, then just not show. I still think it was just a few bad apples, because I have met some great pilots at Mesaba, and they don't deserve what Jinglepants is trying to accomplish.

 

[CWASaab]

The reactivation of this LOA was discussed a few years ago and ALL parties (even Wychor) agreed that it did not apply to the situation at hand. In fact like circumstances had been discussed a couple years earlier then that when XJ moved Avro's into MEM and further decimated our Saab and Jetstream fleets.

The closest we have come to a situation that fit the wording and intent of the LOA 21 was when 9E handed over the 11 B model Saabs about four years ago. 9E did not pursue activation of this LOA for obvious reasons.

Its not like this was a real sweetheart of a deal anyway. A limited number of captains got a 3:1 date of hire integration (2:1 if they were qualified in the equipment they were being transferred into) and FO's got a staple job.

Not true on the FOs, they were not stapled. As I said they came in with better seniority than some pilots who were already on property. Over all, it was a lot better than a preferred interview.

Those FOs, who didn't become Mesaba employees until Nov. '97, had August 1, 1997 seniority dates. That 'small' difference right now could mean holding onto an Avro left seat.

If the situation arises where 9E gets delivery of a larger class of aircraft in the future and the Avro's are out of service I do believe we may have something that applies to the intent of the LOA.





If you believe it to be true that 9E has no obligation to XJ under the terms of this LOA why are you so bent out of shape about it? Or is this just another opportunity to bash 9E pilots, an activity you seem to relish so much. What was that you were saying about brand unity?

I am not really bent out of shape about it, and I hardly relish or enjoy bashing 9E pilots. I count many friends on the 9E list.

What I have trouble stomaching is the lack of desire on the parts of some 9E pilots to help out without being forced to do so.

And before I go any further, I will acknowledge that the majority of current 9E pilots probably have no idea what this is all about, and I harbor no ill will towards any of the pilots at 9E.

My frustration comes from missed opportunities, from failing to make a change in the way this industry works, from going to battle for a higher cause and finding out that the ones you were fighting with couldn't care less about the cause.

When the Mesaba pilots, the rank and file, voted to approve the LOA they made an awesome gesture. They were setting the stage to show management what band loyalty was going to look like, and that when we worked together we could counter the NWA whipsaw.

When the pendulum swung the other way, and it was time for someone other then the Mesaba pilots to do something altruistic, it didn't happen.

I find it frustrating, and sad, that those 9E pilots who responded to both this thread and the previous discussion on the subject fail to see the possibilities, the intent. Instead I continue to see the line about not meeting the triggers.

As you suggest, "under the terms of the LOA" there is no obligation yet, and I agree, currently there is no legal obligation. But what about a moral obligation? What about doing something that benefits the greater good of all red-tail pilots?

Our profession is under attack from management, and from internal division. If we only ever act on what is in the best interest to our own groups, we will fail and this downward spiral will continue, to the delight of union-busting lawyers and boardrooms. Saving this thing we love, keeping it a viable, respected occupation will take some sacrifice. If no one is willing to make those moves, to show management that we will look out for each other in the face of their shell-games, we will fail.

Mesaba management was the driving force behind getting this LOA pushed through. They needed trained pilots....fast. Both MEC's were lukewarm to the proposition.

I wasn't around for the genesis of the LOA, so I cannot fully speak to Management being behind it. But what I do know is that even with the LOA Mesaba had to wet-lease 9E crews and planes to cover the flying. This is the origin of the August 1, 1997 seniority date for the FOs who came over, as this was the day the wet-lease started. Given that Mesaba had to pay for a wet-lease arrangement anyway and had to send all the pilots through training regardless of their experience from 9E, I doubt this LOA saved Mesaba any money. In fact I would venture that it costed Mesaba more to have the LOA (the captains who came over all ended up higher up on the list than the guys who were upgrading at the time-more $).

But regardless of whose idea it was, it took approval from the rank-and-file Mesaba pilots to make it happen, and they voted to take that first step.

 

[Dodge]

Turbo,
Not trying to be a prick here. My guess is the reason that most of the 9E pilots don't know about this LOA is two fold. They obviously weren't employed at 9E in the 1990's and the ones who were sure aren't gonna bring up the fact that XJ pilots voted in favor of 9E pilots carrying in a half or third of their seniority. Not many 9E pilots relish the fact that a 8 year FO at XJ would walk into a line holding CA position at 9E if the reciprocal were to happen. I know I would deny, deny, deny and fight it to the end if I were at 9E. "This is totally different now. 9E had Jetstreams. When you XJ pricks start losing Jetstream flying, we'll talk."

This goes to show that being the nice guy will always get you screwed. XJ ALPA should have never allowed those guys to bring in seniority. A preferential interview, yes....a job with captain rank off the street, no way. Sorry if that seems harsh, but a union needs to protect the pilots on its OWN list first. Wychor should have known better in '97.

 

[TurboAWD]

The truth is, capacity purchase agreements like we have these days destroy pilot leverage. Although I am not an ALPA basher, ALPA has done a great disservice to ALL airline pilots by alowing this fragmentation of the pilot ranks.

ACA got screwed, Comair got screwed, XJ is getting screwed. Not to mention Air Willy, ASA, TSA, etc, etc.

Who knows, perhaps in a few years we will be talking about the industry leading contract MESA has, and how it's to bad they are loosing all their flying to ?????

 

[titans10]

Mesa is hiring like crazy. I love it here in hawaii.

 

[Spinn555]

You don't really believe XJ will be a 49 saab operator (at least for long), do you?

Yes I do.

I even believe that Mesaba will not exist in the future.

I believe that ALPA and its members should make a stance, and shut the place down to be nothing more than desks and chairs, rather than give in to large changes in the contract.

If this association that calls itself a 'UNION' fails to do this, it will only give more reason for other companies to do the "Hey, let's do what Mesaba did!" game.

The leaders at Mesaba MGMT will no longer be in their position this time next year, with concessions, or not. It is up to the labor association to decide if that group will be at better CEO, BOD, CFO, COO (etc) positions, or if they will be weekend night manager at a White Castle on South Robert Street in Inver Grove Heights, MN.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Is Mesaba already at 49 Saabs and just working on phasing out all the jets or are there still some Saabs to go yet?

 

[Simon Says]

Currently, there are 51 Saabs on the property.