*New Jetblue Pay Rates*

[Dan Roman]

I guess the UAW guys/gals at GM, Chrysler and Ford are making out great on their concessions too... A union has no clout if your company is in quicksand. SWA for many years had the best contracts for a narrow body fleet because their company has been healthy-- it will be interesting to see what happens in the near future with their current financial issues.

SWA did as well as they did because they had a union. They will not lose it because they have a........ you guessed it, a union.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Time will tell...

 

[B6Busdriver]

A lot better than if they hadn't had a union. What you guys bashing the "union airlines" don't seem to grasp is if the pay rates are raised at all it's because the "union airlines" raised the bar.

Dan Roman is right....we are riding on the union carriers coat tails. Thank goodness someone has the stones to fight for us indirectly.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I guess the UAW guys/gals at GM, Chrysler and Ford are making out great on their concessions too... A union has no clout if your company is in quicksand. SWA for many years had the best contracts for a narrow body fleet because their company has been healthy-- it will be interesting to see what happens in the near future with their current financial issues.

Apples and oranges. I'm sure Herb and the gang said hey we're doing well so let's give these guys raises. The SWA pilots NEGOTIATED their rates.

I can just see it now, you and your ilk will be beating your chests and pointing fingers on Monday saying "see...see we told you they would do the right thing." Yet on Tuesday they could announce all 190 flying to be done by Republic. Or God forbid you scrape a wintip, is Nick and the PVC gonna have your back? How's that taxable LTD look compared to other carriers? Oh and OJI....sorry you can't use your STD that YOU pay for!

They can double my pay, I voted yes last time and will from now on. Oh and it will be for ALPA only, no touchy feely in-house crap either.

 

[labbats]

What you guys bashing the "union airlines" don't seem to grasp is if the pay rates are raised at all it's because the "union airlines" raised the bar.

Laugh of the day!

I guess you haven't seen the payscales at United. Your statement would be true if you replaced the word "raised" with lowered.

JetBlue gets a hefty pay raise and you want to talk about the mighty legacy airlines and ALPA. Maybe you should just thank them for helping your next attempt at raising your own bar.

 

[Beaver_Liquors]

Laugh of the day!

I guess you haven't seen the payscales at United. Your statement would be true if you replaced the word "raised" with lowered.

JetBlue gets a hefty pay raise and you want to talk about the mighty legacy airlines and ALPA. Maybe you should just thank them for helping your next attempt at raising your own bar.

Why do you think that the united rates were lowered in the first place???

 

[ualdriver]

Laugh of the day!

I guess you haven't seen the payscales at United. Your statement would be true if you replaced the word "raised" with lowered.

JetBlue gets a hefty pay raise and you want to talk about the mighty legacy airlines and ALPA. Maybe you should just thank them for helping your next attempt at raising your own bar.

Labbats, which airline do you work for?

 

[bluesideup340]

Why do you think that the united rates were lowered in the first place???

It is called free market. Do you imply we should replace our free market economy with something else?

 

[clickclickboom]

As a high credit senior FO that has bypassed 190 upgrade for nearly 3 years now I will get a raise of approximately $16,000. That does not include rigs, intl or night overrides.

Am I excited? Absolutely not.. I dont look at this as a raise but more of a CORRECTION.. This profession as whole has a long way to go to restore even 50% of the losses.

I will be voting Yes again

 

[Beaver_Liquors]

It is called free market. Do you imply we should replace our free market economy with something else?

yes i understand, but it sounded like he thought JB was doing the industry a favor. The "free market" rates were lowered significantly because of pay rates like JBs rates. I am not saying that ual is the be all and end all of airlines, and i am not saying that JB sucks, but anyone who thinks JB, CAL (from 83), Virg Am, Airtran are helping the industry, well i have to disagree with them. It all started with dereguation. I am glad that JB may be getting raises, but the damage has already been done and will continue until too many people are killed becuase we havent recruited the best and brightest. Listen to testimony from sully to congress. He and jeff have done more for this industry in an hour and a half than everyone else put together in the past 8 years.

To answer your question, yes, i think things should change, maybe "free markets" are not the best choice in safety sensative industries. The free market lowest cost might not work for airlines. But it shouldnt take airplane crashes to show this, we have too many bean counters and not enough leaders.

 

[contrail67]

Laugh of the day!

I guess you haven't seen the payscales at United. Your statement would be true if you replaced the word "raised" with lowered.

JetBlue gets a hefty pay raise and you want to talk about the mighty legacy airlines and ALPA. Maybe you should just thank them for helping your next attempt at raising your own bar.

I take it you did not see the new DAL contract? This is the new standard and others WILL follow.

 

[labbats]

I have seen it and am impressed. I'm optimistic the worst is behind us as well.

 

[contrail67]

United's pay rates were established during BK...in case you have forgotton. Trust me...they will go up. So don't bash United and their pay rates...If the new contract does not provide industry leading rates or rates remain the same as what they have been....then bash United all you want.

One thing I do not understand is why there is not something in United's contract...or any airline that went through the BK game....that when they exit BK they should go into a non-BK contract.....PERIOD....instead of staying in the BK contract with BS pay rates.

 

[contrail67]

Why do you think that the united rates were lowered in the first place???

He does not remember.....

 

[hockeypilot44]

United's pay rates were established during BK...in case you have forgotton. Trust me...they will go up. So don't bash United and their pay rates...If the new contract does not provide industry leading rates or rates remain the same as what they have been....then bash United all you want.

One thing I do not understand is why there is not something in United's contract...or any airline that went through the BK game....that when they exit BK they should go into a non-BK contract.....PERIOD....instead of staying in the BK contract with BS pay rates.

This is ALPA's failure and only ALPA's failure. There should have been snap-back clauses and snap-back raises put back into the contracts.

 

[PCL_128]

This is ALPA's failure and only ALPA's failure. There should have been snap-back clauses and snap-back raises put back into the contracts.

Hard to get that stuff into a contract when the BK judge is breathing down your neck wanting you to sign draconian concessions, and willing to impose them on you (with an injunction barring you from striking) if you don't.

 

[ualdriver]

This is ALPA's failure and only ALPA's failure. There should have been snap-back clauses and snap-back raises put back into the contracts.

Yes, there "should have been" many, many things negotiated when we had that 1113c cocked and loaded gun pointed at our head. I'm sure Wedoff would have approved that with a great big smile on his face along with a, "is there anything else I can do for you guys? Maybe a pay raise?" Yup, you're right. ALPA's fault. Everyone knows that the entire bankruptcy process shamelessly favors labor unions!

 

[ualdriver]

Hard to get that stuff into a contract when the BK judge is breathing down your neck wanting you to sign draconian concessions, and willing to impose them on you (with an injunction barring you from striking) if you don't.

he-he. You beat me by three minutes!

 

[hockeypilot44]

he-he. You beat me by three minutes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCL_128
Hard to get that stuff into a contract when the BK judge is breathing down your neck wanting you to sign draconian concessions, and willing to impose them on you (with an injunction barring you from striking) if you don't.


That's our biggest flaw. We are afraid of striking "illegally". A judge shouldn't have the power to stop a strike. The truth is he doesn't. We just believe he does. They New York Transit workers went on strike and no one was going to stop them. The ALPA officers are pussies who are only out for themselves. The are the most embarrassing, disgraceful leaders in history of any organization.

 

[motch]

Back to the original Post..

Are those the ACTUAL pay rates as of today or are they still the PROPOSED pay rates?
And as a few have mentioned.. what are the work rules that go with the new pay rates.

Everybody always gets in an uproar over payrates, but payrates are only part of the big picture.
Work rules, retirements and extra pay (uniforms, medicals, etc..)

Thanks
motch

 

[clickclickboom]

yes i understand, but it sounded like he thought JB was doing the industry a favor. The "free market" rates were lowered significantly because of pay rates like JBs rates. I am not saying that ual is the be all and end all of airlines, and i am not saying that JB sucks, but anyone who thinks JB, CAL (from 83), Virg Am, Airtran are helping the industry, well i have to disagree with them. It all started with dereguation. I am glad that JB may be getting raises, but the damage has already been done and will continue until too many people are killed becuase we havent recruited the best and brightest. Listen to testimony from sully to congress. He and jeff have done more for this industry in an hour and a half than everyone else put together in the past 8 years.

To answer your question, yes, i think things should change, maybe "free markets" are not the best choice in safety sensative industries. The free market lowest cost might not work for airlines. But it shouldnt take airplane crashes to show this, we have too many bean counters and not enough leaders.

FREE MARKET in the airline industry does not exist.. What has happened to this industry has nothing to do with the pilots and everything to do with management. This same greed carries over into all industry in the USA. The worker has gotten poorer and management richer ten fold.

The problem with pilot recruitment starts with the majors farming out the flying and imposing rates that are barely profitable for the regionals. The salaries are forced so low that the birth of pilot puppy mills are created.

When i was building time a new hire regional fo would have 3000 plus hrs just to get an interview unless of course you were a female pilot with 700 hours then you would go right into the right seat of the 767 at united. I didnt get my first airline interview until I had 6000 hrs

 

[ualdriver]

The truth is he doesn't. We just believe he does. They New York Transit workers went on strike and no one was going to stop them. The ALPA officers are pussies who are only out for themselves. The are the most embarrassing, disgraceful leaders in history of any organization.

Thanks hockeypilot. I'll make sure that if we ever end up in bankruptcy again, and we need someone to brief our attorneys about Section 1113 of the United States Bankruptcy code, they call you.

 

[ualdriver]

So my deep, underground, JetBlue sources tell me that today is the day that these new rates get officially announced. Was I misinformed?

 

[Longhorn]

No..we are all awaiting the "BEEP" on our phones that say you have new mail. Suppose to be today.

 

[BigMotorToter]

No..we are all awaiting the "BEEP" on our phones that say you have new mail. Suppose to be today.

Just verifying longhorns post. Yes, today is the day for the official release of the new pay structure. Rumor is 78 is the new time and a half trigger point.

 

[Penguin46]

I am glad that JB may be getting raises, but the damage has already been done and will continue until too many people are killed becuase we havent recruited the best and brightest. Listen to testimony from sully to congress. He and jeff have done more for this industry in an hour and a half than everyone else put together in the past 8 years.

To answer your question, yes, i think things should change, maybe "free markets" are not the best choice in safety sensative industries. The free market lowest cost might not work for airlines. But it shouldnt take airplane crashes to show this, we have too many bean counters and not enough leaders.

Good point; I don't believe an airline has to hire the best and brightest; all they require is qualified. It's unfortunate and reinforces a possible professional slide to a VOTECH type labor force and mentality.

 

[ualdriver]

Well, it's past the close of business on the east coast.......no raise? Or are you guys just being coy?

 

[PCL_128]

A judge shouldn't have the power to stop a strike. The truth is he doesn't.

Actually, yes he does. The APA tried to do what you're suggesting. They conducted a blatantly illegal sick-out, and the judge told them to stop. They didn't stop, so he issued a $40 million fine against their union and told them that he would bankrupt them if they didn't stop the second time. Needless to say, they complied the second time. If you don't comply with an injunction, then the judge will simply fine you enough to bankrupt your union into nonexistence, and then you're nothing but another at-will worker that management can replace at will. How many of your fellow pilots do you think will hold the picket lines when their union doesn't even exist anymore? Good luck with that plan.

They New York Transit workers went on strike and no one was going to stop them.

The transit workers don't work under the RLA. But putting that aside for a moment, I doubt you're aware of the consequences to that strike. Each TWU member that works for the MTA is having money deducted from every paycheck for a couple of years to pay off fines that the judge imposed on them individually. In addition to the individual fines for each member, the judge also imposed $2.5 million in fines on the union, and the members can no longer have their dues automatically deducted from their paychecks. Basically, the judge is trying to put the union in a situation where they'll be struggling financially and won't be able to put up much of a fight next time. Some pilots like to point to this strike as a victory, but it was really a draw. They got some small pay raises, no change to their pension, and some minor changes in work rules like a paid holiday on MLK day, yet they're having to pay individual fines and their union is under intense financial pressure. Not exactly a stunning victory.

The ALPA officers are pussies who are only out for themselves. The are the most embarrassing, disgraceful leaders in history of any organization.

I'm willing to bet that you've never met any of them and are talking out of your ass.

 

[Blue Dude]

Well, it's past the close of business on the east coast.......no raise? Or are you guys just being coy?

Somebody's being coy, but it's not the line pilots. Nothing's out yet. We'll probably get an email at 2359 and 67% of the pilots will trip over themselves explaining how the company needed the time to make sure they were taking care of us properly.

 

[ualdriver]

The transit workers don't work under the RLA. But putting that aside for a moment, I doubt you're aware of the consequences to that strike. Each TWU member that works for the MTA is having money deducted from every paycheck for a couple of years to pay off fines that the judge imposed on them individually. In addition to the individual fines for each member, the judge also imposed $2.5 million in fines on the union, and the members can no longer have their dues automatically deducted from their paychecks. Basically, the judge is trying to put the union in a situation where they'll be struggling financially and won't be able to put up much of a fight next time. Some pilots like to point to this strike as a victory, but it was really a draw. They got some small pay raises, no change to their pension, and some minor changes in work rules like a paid holiday on MLK day, yet they're having to pay individual fines and their union is under intense financial pressure. Not exactly a stunning victory.

Very interesting. I didn't realize they got those additional spanks.