New generation of USAF officers

[71KILO]

I don't think it is the new officers per se. I think it is the old officers unwilling to make a stand. I don't think the fighter community deals with it as much as the heavy community. We have a kid in my unit that has been in more trouble than I can even recount. Busted to permanent copilot, or for two years anyway when they found out how much it was going to cost to send him back to A/C school. They thought about FEBing him at one time but decided it would be too hard. None of the leadership wanted any dirt on them. Get through the assignment as fast as possible with out a blemish and move up. Who cares about the wasteland left behind for the next guy. Sickening.

 

[Scrapdog]

I don't think it is the new officers per se. I think it is the old officers unwilling to make a stand. I don't think the fighter community deals with it as much as the heavy community. We have a kid in my unit that has been in more trouble than I can even recount. Busted to permanent copilot, or for two years anyway when they found out how much it was going to cost to send him back to A/C school. They thought about FEBing him at one time but decided it would be too hard. None of the leadership wanted any dirt on them. Get through the assignment as fast as possible with out a blemish and move up. Who cares about the wasteland left behind for the next guy. Sickening.

That's not a problem with the heavy community - that's an issue that probably started in pilot training. If the kid stinks that bad...he probably showed multiple signs of that in tweets and later on in the T-1. It's the inability to wash guys out that are weak swimmers from the AETC side of the house that permeate later on in whatever jet they go to. Probably have more of an issue with that in the heavy community than fighters, but the root cause stems from AETC early on in their flying careers.

 

[milplt]

It isn't just AETC, it's problematic of the entire USAF flying community. It's the chicken vs. the egg - maybe we would produce better new aviators if the instructors were better at their job, maybe the instructors would be better if we didn't send IP's that couldn't make it as a 4E or AC, mabe our 4E's and AC's would be better if the students produced in UPT were better.

I know of at least one pilot that was not FEB's because the CC outright stated that he didn't want the board giving him (the CC) that kind of scrutiny (I suppose he didn't want any dirty laundry aired that could potentially stop his career progession). Now is that his fault? I don't know, maybe it is the fault of the even more senior leaders that allow that kind of environment and who would stop his progression if something was aired from a FEB.

I think we can see that these experiences of giving pilots AC or 2E just because they deserve it is a common practice. Every indidvidual unit sees it as just "their" problem and they tend to let "just this one" slide. Add up all of these individual instances across the Air Force and they make a big chunk. When we make these decisions, we need to start thinking of "what's best for the USAF as a whole" and recognize that 15 qualified and motivated pilots may be better than 17 pilots of questionable aptitude.

One last thing, I want all of the older craniums that have been out of AETC for a while to reflect on CobraKai's post. He said that in 4 YEARS, he knows of 8 total students that washed out of T-1's or T-38's. 8 in 4 years! Most of you lost that many and more from all of the classes that went through in the 1 year that you were at UPT. Our instruction hasn't improved that much. By the way, my experiences in AETC primary flight instruction support those numbers.

 

[CobraKai]

Like I said those numbers are pretty low, in my opinion. We tried to get others out but we were stopped by the leadership, no matter how good our documentation was. I do not know the numbers for Phase II off the top of my head in that same time span. I know in my class we lost only about 4 one was an SIE (his wife seemed to care more about UPT than he did, she would show up with hi at our study sessions and seem to know more of the GK). We had another guy wash back, but that is because he actually is a good pilot that just had 3 bad rides in a row then did his 88 ride with Capt Hook, because our Flight commander was out of town.

The timeline was our leadership's primary concern. Plenty of times I was told as, a scheduler, to blow off continuity in order to stay on the timeline, Easier for the good students but piss poor training for the bottom dwellers. The number of students that make it through UPT is the new metric.

 

[stonewall]

That's not a problem with the heavy community - that's an issue that probably started in pilot training. If the kid stinks that bad...he probably showed multiple signs of that in tweets and later on in the T-1. It's the inability to wash guys out that are weak swimmers from the AETC side of the house that permeate later on in whatever jet they go to. Probably have more of an issue with that in the heavy community than fighters, but the root cause stems from AETC early on in their flying careers.

We get 'em in fighters, too. We had a guy several years ago at base X that was seriously struggling in MQT. Got to the point he could only fly with an IP in the back seat...no C models for him. Anyway, we decided to cut him loose and started the research.

SMS in Tweets, T-38s, AT-38's AND the F-16 schoolhouse. He had a great attitude and tried hard, but he was just shuffled along with the idea that the next group of IPs would handle it. So what did we do? FEB? Nah...sent him to C-17s at McChord. WTF? Never should've touched an airplane again. All we did was make him someone else's problem.

Kicker was that he bitched about the assignment. I told him that several of my heavy driver bros would cut a limb off for that assignment, and he pretty much should shut up and color. Not sure what became of him.

 

[Hagar17]

Albie:

Did you mean to say "Kelly Flinn?" Or was that a Freudian slip?

I had a banked bro that went to UPT with Jeannie Flynn. Said she was nothing special, except for being the "chosen one."

Hag

That, along with the Clinton adminstration's tone, Tailhook 91, and various scandels (Jeannie Flynn, etc) created a more "politically correct" atmosphere.

 

[AlbieF15]

Hagar--you are right. I meant the B-52 gal who got in trouble, not the first female fighter pilot. I meant no disrespect to her, and I stand corrected...

 

[Hagar17]

Hagar--you are right. I meant the B-52 gal who got in trouble, not the first female fighter pilot. I meant no disrespect to her, and I stand corrected...

Dude, no problem. Hope to be passing you a cold water over your left shoulder soon at Purple.

Hag

 

[AlbieF15]

Only if I beer the beers on the layover...

welcome!

 

[Purpled]

Only if I beer the beers on the layover...

welcome!

Looks like you've got beer on your mind!

 

[Afterprop]

Daedalians . . .

OK, I'm late to the fight, but I left yesterday, and it takes a while in my handsome high performance C-130 Hercules that I used to fly ;-) Just a rhetorical question for all the active duty, reserve, guard, and retired guys, USMC, USN, USAF, USA, and USCG . . . how many of you are Daedalian members?

This group of aviators is dedicated to the memory of those who first flew our nations aircraft in combat (WW I). Respect for each other at Daedalian meetings is immeasurable -- what we have done, and for what we will do. You bring the retired guys who flew/fought in the Big One (WW II), some guys that flew low-level reconnaisance over the Soviet Union in the 50s/60s, Korean War, and Vietnam. Then, throw in the guys from Shield/Storm, Bosnia, and others, plus the guys actively fighting now, and it is just a fantastic time. Yea, there may be one or two who are there to be seen, but . . . the older guys from pre-Shield/Storm have the best stories, and their PC skills are lacking ;-) (And if you should be one of the more mature guys, absolutely no disrespect intended).

Look into it, or if you want more info, PM me.
Cheers
'Props

 

[Benhuntn]

since 1980. Life member, and charter member of two flights

 

[Afterprop]

Cool Beans ! ! !

since 1980. Life member, and charter member of two flights

Telling your age there . . . as for me, since 1993, life member. You know the fellowship and respect to which I refer. A toast . . .

 

[tomgoodman]

Daedalians

Great organization with great guest speakers! At "Space Flight" (Patrick AFB) in the early '70s, we still had some members who flew in WWI. At "Frank P. Lahm Flight" (Wright-Patterson AFB) we had Dr. Hans von Ohain (co-inventor of the jet engine), as a speaker. At "Test Flight" (Edwards AFB), we heard from Burt Rutan and Tony Levier (Lockheed test pilot--P-38, P-80, F-104, U-2).

 

[pkober]

That's not a problem with the heavy community - that's an issue that probably started in pilot training. If the kid stinks that bad...he probably showed multiple signs of that in tweets and later on in the T-1. It's the inability to wash guys out that are weak swimmers from the AETC side of the house that permeate later on in whatever jet they go to. Probably have more of an issue with that in the heavy community than fighters, but the root cause stems from AETC early on in their flying careers.

Don't lump that ANG/AFRC guys in that stinky heavy pilot stuff. Most of us finished at the top of our classes, ahead of the AD fighter types.

CLAMBAKE

 

[Scrapdog]

Don't lump that ANG/AFRC guys in that stinky heavy pilot stuff. Most of us finished at the top of our classes, ahead of the AD fighter types.

CLAMBAKE

Deal - consider it "unlumped." Pkober - I'm sure you showed those silly AD fighter guys a thing or two.

And I'm sure you realized the point of my post wasn't even close to a compare/contrast of ANG fatty drivers to AD fighter guys. It was instead intent on showing that root problems with weak swimmers usually stems from a weak showing in UPT, both in the fatty and the fighter community alike.

 

[shutout390]

Hey guys this is a great thread, really helping us young guys looking into the AFROTC and/or NROTC.

From reading your posts I realize how tough it can be to get a pilot spot, and it seems with anything in the world today you must impress somebody or know somebody. I am a real competitior, so it disturbs me to hear about those Star Trek guys. Im trying to figure out what line to walk if/when I do go ROTC and Im at a base or just anywhere I guess around superiors.

My question is how can I learn and show that I am dedicated without becoming a nuesance? What kind of an approach can one take to being personable with officers at the base and not be some annoying kid asking too many questions? (like im doing now). Basically how would you expect a top notch cadet to act while on these visits to bases.

Thanks alot guys.

 

[pkober]

Deal - consider it "unlumped." Pkober - I'm sure you showed those silly AD fighter guys a thing or two.

And I'm sure you realized the point of my post wasn't even close to a compare/contrast of ANG fatty drivers to AD fighter guys. It was instead intent on showing that root problems with weak swimmers usually stems from a weak showing in UPT, both in the fatty and the fighter community alike.

I don't define myself by my airplane or my college.

I got your underhanded comment about most of the problem children from UPT going to heavies. I just wanted to make sure you didn't lump us ANG bubba's into that pot. The silly AD fighter guys in my class weren't fighter guys yet, they were just students. We didn't and still don't define ourselves by our airplane.

 

[Scrapdog]

I don't define myself by my airplane or my college.

I got your underhanded comment about most of the problem children from UPT going to heavies. I just wanted to make sure you didn't lump us ANG bubba's into that pot. The silly AD fighter guys in my class weren't fighter guys yet, they were just students. We didn't and still don't define ourselves by our airplane.

Dude - chill. There was no underhanded comment whatsoever, and I don't define myself by my airplane, nor do my peers from what I know of. I was strictly referring to the fact (as I'll say again) that guys with "issues" in their respective ops units usually have those issues arise early on in their UPT classes - T-37's, T-38's, and/or T-1's.

For the college thing - Heck, I don't even know where you want to college anyway. For me, I'm proud of the fact I went to the zoo...if you've got an issue with that, I'm sorry. Never once have I said anything to substantiate that I define myself by that institution, other than my avatar (and that's because I like to root on the football team).

 

[McGillicutty]

Hey guys this is a great thread, really helping us young guys looking into the AFROTC and/or NROTC.

From reading your posts I realize how tough it can be to get a pilot spot, and it seems with anything in the world today you must impress somebody or know somebody. I am a real competitior, so it disturbs me to hear about those Star Trek guys. Im trying to figure out what line to walk if/when I do go ROTC and Im at a base or just anywhere I guess around superiors.

My question is how can I learn and show that I am dedicated without becoming a nuesance? What kind of an approach can one take to being personable with officers at the base and not be some annoying kid asking too many questions? (like im doing now). Basically how would you expect a top notch cadet to act while on these visits to bases.

Thanks alot guys.

First off, take a lot of what is being posted with a grain of salt. Realize that opinions are like... well.. you know. The best way you'll get a taste of what the current Air Force is like is to go out there and experience it for yourself. What some of the old heads on here are saying about weak leadership and quibbling is true--but there are still many warrior types out there and you'll need to be able to identify who's who. Same thing with your classmates. There are some real touchy-feely dorks out there; but then there are some folks who you'll watch in a brief or off your wing and think "damn, that dude is pretty good". Again, take mental notes about what you think makes your Sq/CC so successful and also look at the weak officers and see what about them pisses you (and everyone else) off--stay away from those traits, obviously. Try to help them out, but, don't spend too much time (about 2 minutes into tutoring one UPT classmate , I could tell he didn't want to be there).

Have confidence in yourself and your skills going into the task but don't let it get in the way of acknowledging your weaknesses. If you slipped 100' below MDA it was your fault--not a coincidental downburst of wind over the final approach course. Same can be said for your successes; be proud of when you nailed that cuban-8 but don't let it sidetrack your focus.

Finally, don't be the kid playing World of Warcraft with Leeroy Jenkins at 11pm after rollcall or whatever. You don't have to get wasted every Friday/Saturday night, but be a sociable friend and good source of conversation for the rest of your coworkers.

I'm sure other guys on the board will have more info but the above should hold you over until they weigh in; PM me if you have anymore questions.