New Flight Time and Duty Day Regulations

Champ42272

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The FAA, led by former ALPA MEC Chairman Randy Babbitt, is looking to rewrite the flight time and duty day regulations for FAR 121 carriers.

My questions to this forum is, if you had the authority to write the regulation and implement new flight time and duty day rules, what would they look like.

For me, I would suggest no more than a 12 hour duty day (domestic), 14 hour (international), and current Ultra Long Haul rules, but keep the 8 hour flight time restriction for two pilot aircrews. Comments?

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Champ 42272
 

labbats

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Remove the maximum 8 hours of flying and replace it with maximum 12 hour duty day and maximum landings of 5. Change the minimum rest to 10 hours and disallow travel local in nature to count for it. Use the average drive time to the hotel for additional duty day.
 

GogglesPisano

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Minimum 12hrs rest between duty periods. Eliminate "reduced rest."

Maximum 2-man duty period = 14 hrs, no exceptions.

And, most importantly, keep it simple.
 

goodgig

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What is the railroad duty limits?
IIRC, they were a bit better than 121/135.

Maybe they will look like those.
 

landlover

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Remove the maximum 8 hours of flying and replace it with maximum 12 hour duty day and maximum landings of 5. Change the minimum rest to 10 hours and disallow travel local in nature to count for it. Use the average drive time to the hotel for additional duty day.
fudging right!
 

saabservant

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Go to the ntsb website, they have some postings on what the europeans are doing with duty times. Basically, a graduated time limit depending on what times of day your duty period starts. And, a limit on legs tied to length of day and start time.
 

LearLove

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good and bad.

good this is getting some attention (and better working hours mean more flight crews to boot).

bad - some FAA guy and an ALPA duouchebag heading the reform?. I have no faith in a pairing like that to come up with anything less f'd up than we have now.
 

BoilerUP

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The 91K/135 standard of a maximum 14 hour duty day, followed by an non-reducible minimum rest of 10 hours.

I'd also support lifting the 8 hours/day rule all together, or at least raising it to 10 hours per duty period.
 

EBE

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Domestic/Max duty: 10 hours with 4 leg max. Min rest 10 hours. Plain and simple.
 

Bringupthebird

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Base flight time limit on actual time not scheduled (with slight allowance for overage due to wx only). No reduced rest. No standup overnights.

It's pretty sad when the FAA has to jump in and negotiate for you instead of a union.
 

ACL65PILOT

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We here at DAL have a graduated Duty Day depending on report up to 13 hrs sked. We can be extended +2 hrs from max scheduled for IROPS. We can go to 16 is we so desire.

I would say 10 hrs with two landings and no more than three hrs sit time for the duty day of 12 hrs sked. 14 max.

You do not want it that restrictive because if you do that, then you just too more of your time and made it hotel time!
 

Lear70

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Base flight time limit on actual time not scheduled (with slight allowance for overage due to wx only).
That's not much different than what we have now. You'll need to be VERY specific if you want to prevent abuse.

No reduced rest.
Agreed. 10 hours minimum rest in between regular, day-circadian-rhythm trips.

Googles, careful... you don't want to do 12 hours minimum rest except on VERY long international trips; that would severely impact middle-day trips in pairings. You'd end up working more days in the month to get the same amount of block/credit.

No standup overnights.
Careful. Some people LIKE those. (I don't, but I know people who bid them exclusively - they live in domicile, have kids, and that's ALL they bid). What it maybe needs to say is:

"Continuous duty periods that commence after 8 p.m. local time and continue, without an intervening rest period, until after midnight local in the time zone of the city in which the pilot departed, shall be
a. no more than two takeoff and landings in that same duty period, AND
b. shall be limited to no more than 9 hours of scheduled duty, AND
c. shall be no more than 4 hours of actual flight, AND
d. shall be proceeded and followed by 12 hours of prospectively-assigned rest, AND
e. each crew member, including the flight attendant(s), shall be provided with a single-occupancy hotel room for any ground time in between the two flights in paragraph (a) above, in excess of 2 hours."

This would allow for a CDO that has a 2200 report, 2245 departure, 2 hour max flight out, arrive 0045.
Hotel for up to 4 hours.
0445 depart back into domicile, 2 hour max flight back, arrive 0645, 15 minutes to duty off at 0700, then 12 hours minimum rest before you could report for another one.

The point is to make the rules flexible for the people who want them, restrictive enough to be safe, and ironclad enough for management not to be able to violate them.

It's pretty sad when the FAA has to jump in and negotiate for you instead of a union.
Actually, this is better. Once they are implemented, they are not subject to re-interpretation by the airline or the NMB, cannot be violated at will under a "fly it now, grieve it later" order from the Chief Pilot, and leaves the airline no choice but to adhere to the rules.

I also like a 12 hour max duty day, extendable to 14 hours ONLY for unforeseen delays, and make 14 hours the "drop dead" time, similar to how 16 hours is now for Whitlow. This also would fit in the 10 hour min rest profile (14 on, 10 off, maximum, under any circumstances domestic).

Lastly, I'd like to see a restriction on the mixing of day/night circadian rhythm trips from the FAA. Make it where you can't have a 2-day trip followed by 2 CDO's or vice-versa.

The more scheduling ALPA people involved, who actually build pairings, see what happens when you put a lot of restrictions in the pairing generator, and can come up with a middle ground like some of the above examples, should yield some decent results.
 
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UALRATT

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Go to the ntsb website, they have some postings on what the europeans are doing with duty times. Basically, a graduated time limit depending on what times of day your duty period starts. And, a limit on legs tied to length of day and start time.
This would be a great start... Then get rid of the death trap "LEGAL TO START- LEGAL TO FINISH" bull chit. The result is more efficient and rested crews and a real chance of neutralizing the age 65 effects...
 

goodgig

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The 91K/135 standard of a maximum 14 hour duty day, followed by an non-reducible minimum rest of 10 hours.

I'd also support lifting the 8 hours/day rule all together, or at least raising it to 10 hours per duty period.
Under .267
Under .265, you can have a LONGER day.
 

wms

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Use a straight duty limit and not the ambiguous 8 hours rest 24 hour look back. 12 hour duty-12 hour rest and raise the flight time minimum to fit in. Forget the complicated "what time did you start" standard that Europe uses. The more complicated it is the easier for the company to get around it.
 

T3700

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According to the USA Today editorial yesterday, it sounds like Babbit is more concerned about commuting. Significant restrictions on commuting could cause irreparable harm to the quality of life of the average commuter. Imagine if the FAA required 12 hours rest in domicile before reporting for a trip.
 

mynameisjim

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According to the USA Today editorial yesterday, it sounds like Babbit is more concerned about commuting. Significant restrictions on commuting could cause irreparable harm to the quality of life of the average commuter. Imagine if the FAA required 12 hours rest in domicile before reporting for a trip.
Then half of regional pilots leave the industry. Who's gonna move to New York for $21,000 a year?
 

pilotyip

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Googles, careful... you don't want to do 12 hours minimum rest except on VERY long international trips; that would severely impact middle-day trips in pairings. You'd end up working more days in the month to get the same amount of block/credit.

Careful. Some people LIKE those. (I don't, but I know people who bid them exclusively - they live in domicile, have kids, and that's ALL they bid). What it maybe needs to say is:

"Continuous duty periods that commence after 8 p.m. local time and continue, without an intervening rest period, until after midnight local in the time zone of the city in which the pilot departed, shall be
a. no more than two takeoff and landings in that same duty period, AND
b. shall be limited to no more than 9 hours of scheduled duty, AND
c. shall be no more than 4 hours of actual flight, AND
d. shall be proceeded and followed by 12 hours of prospectively-assigned rest, AND
e. each crew member, including the flight attendant(s), shall be provided with a single-occupancy hotel room for any ground time in between the two flights in paragraph (a) above, in excess of 2 hours."

This would allow for a CDO that has a 2200 report, 2245 departure, 2 hour max flight out, arrive 0045.
Hotel for up to 4 hours.
0445 depart back into domicile, 2 hour max flight back, arrive 0645, 15 minutes to duty off at 0700, then 12 hours minimum rest before you could report for another one.

The point is to make the rules flexible for the people who want them, restrictive enough to be safe, and ironclad enough for management not to be able to violate them.

Actually, this is better. Once they are implemented, they are not subject to re-interpretation by the airline or the NMB, cannot be violated at will under a "fly it now, grieve it later" order from the Chief Pilot, and leaves the airline no choice but to adhere to the rules.

I also like a 12 hour max duty day, extendable to 14 hours ONLY for unforeseen delays, and make 14 hours the "drop dead" time, similar to how 16 hours is now for Whitlow. This also would fit in the 10 hour min rest profile (14 on, 10 off, maximum, under any circumstances domestic).
Nice post, remember there are always unintended consquences. For every action there is a reaction.
 

XJohXJ

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Sorry Lear, but no CDO's, period. They simply aren't safe. If you insist on keeping them, then you need to reserve absolute right of refusal for those who can't do them but are junior assigned.

I honestly think they aren't safe no matter how much someone likes them. However, it is just plain wrong to give the leftovers to junior guys who can't stand them.

In other words, if some guys like them and want them, then limit the assignment to those who want them.
 

BoilerUP

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What is the practical difference between a CDO and a redeye?
 
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