New Flight Time and Duty Day Regulations

[XJohXJ]

I agree with the junior-assignment issue, but in all fairness...

What about FedEx and UPS?

The difference is, that there are many pilots who would never apply to work at FedEx and UPS, as the majority of flying is CDO flying. I don't care how much they pay, I would never apply there, as I know I could not do the flying.

At passenger airlines, CDO flying is typically a very small percentage of the flying. Some airlines ban CDOs entirely, as they realize how dangerous they are. They are particularly unsafe when crews are forced to flip into and out of them. If an airline insists on having a few of them on the schedule, it is not unreasonable to limit them to those pilots who actually can do them and want to do them.

 

[Lear70]

The difference is, that there are many pilots who would never apply to work at FedEx and UPS, as the majority of flying is CDO flying. I don't care how much they pay, I would never apply there, as I know I could not do the flying.

Oddly, I liked night flying. When I was at Express One, doing USPS Priority Mail freight, I got on the back side of the clock and stayed there, and actually got used to it. To this day, I still sleep better during the day than at night... during the day I can lay down to sleep and be out in less than 5 minutes. At night, takes me half an hour to unwind and fall asleep... weird, but it works for me.

That said, I can't do CDO's. Like you said, it's the flipping back and forth between day and night schedules and the quasi-rest you get with a 4-5 hour break just screws with my rhythm. Fly all night? Fine. Fly a leg or two, sit and get sleepy for 4 or 5 hours, then fly again? Nope, my body can't do it.

At passenger airlines, CDO flying is typically a very small percentage of the flying. Some airlines ban CDOs entirely, as they realize how dangerous they are. They are particularly unsafe when crews are forced to flip into and out of them.

I agree... it's the flipping that makes the operation unsafe.

If an airline insists on having a few of them on the schedule, it is not unreasonable to limit them to those pilots who actually can do them and want to do them.

Yes, but the problem with that is, if you have them on the schedule, then get a rash of sick calls just among the CDO crowd (not uncommon during flu season - rest is essential in a healthy immune system function), and a large percentage of your reserves refuse to fly them, you just disrupted a large portion of your late evening and early morning bank, taking days to recover from the ripple effects.

There are always consequences to changing the rules. Every time we mess with the rules, management seeks to even the balance back in their favor, often with complete disregard for the consequences of the employees forced to deal with it. I don't know what the answer is, but you have to be VERY careful what you ask for sometimes...

 

[pilotyip]

FAA did study in the late 80's early 90's and recommend controlled sleeping in the cockpit was the best way to combat fatigue. They studied the occurrence of micro naps, these are naps that you have no control over, and you nod off. On crews studied who did not have controlled sleeping in the cockpit there were 147 occurrences of micro nap, a number of them during the approach phase. On the crews at foreign airlines that allowed sleeping in the cockpit, there were no occurrences of micro naps during the approach phase. The FAA recommended that controlled napping in the cockpit be adopted as US policy, however Gov’t officials felt that official recognition of sleeping on the job was un-American. Sorry of a mirco-nap. When you fly shifting schedules, you have to plan sleeping otherwise it is uncontrollable. Having one guy rest his eyes for 20 minutes, when other one knows it is going on does wonders for your ability to make that tight approach at the end of the night. However when everyone in the cockpit is asleep, that is scary. We used to fly these night and day patrols around Vietnam, terrible schedule, 12 hr flights, fly a day flight 12 hours off fly a night flight, 24 hrs off fly a day flight. 10 days in a row. One night off the south end of the country, at 0300, nothing is going on, no contacts, no chatter on the intercom, I am fighting off sleep and loosing, a mirco-nap hits and I nod off. I wake up, you do not know if it has been 30 seconds or 30 minutes, we are on the autopilot' at 1,500’, #1 engine in the bag to save fuel, and all 10 of the crew is asleep. Talk about being wide-awake, Where the are we? Now how do you wake up the PPC without letting him know you nodded off also? The F/E was also in the bag. So I called for "Coffee around for my friends" The point is the worse thing about sleeping in the cockpit is letting it sneak up on you, You know it might happen, plan on when it is going to happen, control it.

 

[Raskal]

I'm nowhere near as optimistic as most of you.

1. I was working for a frac operation during the 135 "re-write" which essentially changed nothing but made it a helluva lot more complicated.

2. CDO's are not inherently unsafe. What makes them unsafe is the pilots who get scheduled into them outside of their normal rythym and/or the idiot pilots who choose not to get the rest when they have the chance. While CDO's are great to constantly whine about they are simply the night shift, nothing more.

Increase the transition period so scheduling cannot flip a reserve pilot to a CDO and back as easily and you might have something.

3. I am absolutely all for simple, but that simply won't happen. More likely the new rules will complicate all kinds of stuff but accomplish nothing except the opposite of their intentions. That is the spirit of all new/modern FAA rules.

4. I do expect commuters to be hurt by anything new.

 

[whymeworry?]

Hold hotels accontable for interrupting a crewmembers sleep. Make it a federal offense to knowingly compromise a cockpit crewmembers rest.

Just as harassing a crewmember can be a punishable offense. So too should arrogant hotel employees that place our rooms next to party-rooms on a saturday night or in a construction zone.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Hold hotels accontable for interrupting a crewmembers sleep. Make it a federal offense to knowingly compromise a cockpit crewmembers rest.

Just as harassing a crewmember can be a punishable offense. So too should arrogant hotel employees that place our rooms next to party-rooms on a saturday night or in a construction zone.

That's not something you can regulate very easily and might be better addressed by making it easier for pilots to make fatigue calls.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Change is a must!!!

Domestic/Max duty: 10 hours with 4 leg max. Min rest 10 hours. Plain and simple.

That would make a lot of turboprop pilots happy, I think. It would also cause a lot of sitting around for those super short-haul types.

I think six would be tops since four seems low. It allows more flexibility. Eight would be a ball busting day!!

-13 hr max duty
-9 hr mas flt day
-no reduced rest with 10 hr min rest period @ hotel
-take into circadian rhythm (less legs with earlier starts, stand-ups or red- eye flt)
-drive to hotel not put of rest. Use average drive to time to hotel
-address commuters and a commuter clause (since this is stemming from
the BUF crash and both pilots commute/rest habits prior to accident)
-a no-fault fatigue program (call in fatigued with NO questions or
pressure and same set of rules that apply to calling in sick)

You international types come up with your own regs. I won't comment since I don't have any background in flying legs to/from overseas only flying over there for long periods of time.

 

[145BOSS]

What is a CDO? We don't have them at my airline.

 

[trip]

You all better be careful of what you wish for if you ever want to get home to see your family. This 10 -12hr min in the hotel will most likley result in longer trips, less days off and less pay. Please dont sign me up for more hotel time, just don't abuse the RR rule and give a true 8 behind the door.

 

[labbats]

One more thing....

A fatigue call should be paid out via sick time. How many of us have struggled though because you couldn't afford to lose 4 hours of pay? Unfortunately I have done that and it's not professional.

I don't how the FAA would create a rule for this, but it needs to be addressed.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

If the company contacts you during your rest period, you should have the option to extend your rest period. period.

The transportation "local in nature" has to go. Your show time and duty day should start in the hotel lobby and end when you get to the hotel that night. And forget calling sked to let them know you are at the hotel, they need to invest in some technology so we can send a text message and get an automated one back with an adjusted show time in the morning if it is required. I don't want to be on hold for 30 min waiting for 1 of the 2 schedulers working to pick up the phone.

And to throw a bone to us commuters, they should positive space us to work and provide a hotel.

 

[Blue Dude]

A 12 hr max duty day seems popular, and I think that's a good idea, but with a twist. Eliminate flight time requirements and focus on duty day. We know that sit time at the airport is at least as fatiguing as time in the cockpit, so eliminate that from consideration. Instead, reduce the max duty day according to the number of legs flown, say by one hour per leg over 2. If 3 legs, then 11 hr max, if 4 legs then 10, etc.

Further reduce the duty day if any part of it will occur overnight. If any part of the duty day touches 0100 to 0500 base time, then the max duty day is reduced 3 hr. Back-side of the clock covers redeyes and high-speeds.

The duty day should also include average transit time to/from company provided hotels, just as average taxi-in time and pre- and post-flight duties are included under Whitlow. It should also include 2 hrs transit time before show. Min rest is 10 hrs, period. With the pre-show transit, min rest in base is effectively 12 hrs.

Any max duty day cannot be scheduled to be exceeded, but legal to start, legal to finish the duty day, extendable by only 2 hrs if circumstances outside of the carrier's control (IROP). The back side of the clock reduction doesn't apply if you go into it inadvertently.

Summary:
Base duty day: 12 hrs
-1 hr for each leg over 2
-3 hrs for back side of the clock duty
+2 hrs for IROP

Min rest 10 hrs, which doesn't include average hotel transit time or 2 hrs of pre-trip transit.

Examples:
Turn max (2 leg): 12 hr, 9 hr if back-side. IROP: 14 and 11.
Busy max (4 leg): 10 hr, 7 hr if back-side. IROP: 12 and 9.
Regional max (6 leg): 8 hrs, 5 hr if back-side (which makes it impossible to schedule heavily front- or back-loaded high-speeds). IROP: 10 and 7.

 

[FBN0223]

A 12 hr max duty day seems popular, and I think that's a good idea, but with a twist. Eliminate flight time requirements and focus on duty day. We know that sit time at the airport is at least as fatiguing as time in the cockpit, so eliminate that from consideration. Instead, reduce the max duty day according to the number of legs flown, say by one hour per leg over 2. If 3 legs, then 11 hr max, if 4 legs then 10, etc.

Further reduce the duty day if any part of it will occur overnight. If any part of the duty day touches 0100 to 0500 base time, then the max duty day is reduced 3 hr. Back-side of the clock covers redeyes and high-speeds.

The duty day should also include average transit time to/from company provided hotels, just as average taxi-in time and pre- and post-flight duties are included under Whitlow. It should also include 2 hrs transit time before show. Min rest is 10 hrs, period. With the pre-show transit, min rest in base is effectively 12 hrs.

Any max duty day cannot be scheduled to be exceeded, but legal to start, legal to finish the duty day, extendable by only 2 hrs if circumstances outside of the carrier's control (IROP). The back side of the clock reduction doesn't apply if you go into it inadvertently.

Summary:
Base duty day: 12 hrs
-1 hr for each leg over 2
-3 hrs for back side of the clock duty
+2 hrs for IROP

Min rest 10 hrs, which doesn't include average hotel transit time or 2 hrs of pre-trip transit.

Examples:
Turn max (2 leg): 12 hr, 9 hr if back-side. IROP: 14 and 11.
Busy max (4 leg): 10 hr, 7 hr if back-side. IROP: 12 and 9.
Regional max (6 leg): 8 hrs, 5 hr if back-side (which makes it impossible to schedule heavily front- or back-loaded high-speeds). IROP: 10 and 7.

In other words, we at Jetblue(a non-union carrier) want to do turns that but that eight hour rule screws us.

 

[Blue Dude]

I couldn't care less about transcon turns. I would just rather fly than sit, even if that means three legs worth 9 hrs vs four legs worth 7 with a three hour sit in the middle. Which is more *fatiguing*, genius? Now how about some constructive input?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I'm nowhere near as optimistic as most of you.

1. I was working for a frac operation during the 135 "re-write" which essentially changed nothing but made it a helluva lot more complicated.

2. CDO's are not inherently unsafe. What makes them unsafe is the pilots who get scheduled into them outside of their normal rythym and/or the idiot pilots who choose not to get the rest when they have the chance. While CDO's are great to constantly whine about they are simply the night shift, nothing more.

Increase the transition period so scheduling cannot flip a reserve pilot to a CDO and back as easily and you might have something.

3. I am absolutely all for simple, but that simply won't happen. More likely the new rules will complicate all kinds of stuff but accomplish nothing except the opposite of their intentions. That is the spirit of all new/modern FAA rules.

4. I do expect commuters to be hurt by anything new.

I love bidding CDO reserve. I don't want to see that lost. My problem with it is when you are on P3 (CDO reserve) and set up your sleep schedule to match then the second night scheduling calls at 1925 to put you back to rest (after already sleeping for the proper contact times) to show at 5:30 for 8 hours of ready reserve that now you need to be functional to be AT THE AIRPORT at 5:30 and available to work til 19:30. Two days of that then it's back to the CDO period availablity you last night... that's VERY unsafe and impractical but done all the time here.

It's the daily shift changes that pose the biggest problem. You never know WHEN to sleep because things can be changed on you on a whim.

This type of thing has also burned me as a lineholder too. You have a reduced rest overnight with 2 short legs the next morning. No big deal. Oh but wait get to the overnight city, and how bout a repo flight back to the hub then a flight back to the overnight getting there about 6 hours after you were scheduled/planned to be there (and basically usless on that last approach). If I go off duty with 2 legs the next day then dangit 2 legs is it period.