New Flight Time and Duty Day Regulations

[ImbracableCrunk]

What is the practical difference between a CDO and a redeye?

About 8 hours of duty.

 

[crj567]

About 8 hours of duty.

Really-You can be on duty for a CDO for 14 hrs (at our company.) Are you saying a red-eye will allow 22hrs?

 

[livin'thesim]

Remove the maximum 8 hours of flying and replace it with maximum 12 hour duty day and maximum landings of 5. Change the minimum rest to 10 hours and disallow travel local in nature to count for it. Use the average drive time to the hotel for additional duty day.

Amen.

I would like to see reduced rest only being allowed as an after the fact thing, rather than having it scheduled in.

So:

Min SCHEDULED rest 10 hours, reducible to 9 after the duty day starts.

The five landings is a good idea, I'd be okay with six.

Disallowing travel time is a good idea, otherwise make the 10 hours non-reducible.

So maybe the grid could look like this:

Less than 8hrs in 24 hrs
Normal rest 10hrs
Reducible to 9hrs
Comp rest 11hrs

8 hrs or more but less than 9hrs in 24hr
Normal rest 11hrs
Reducible to 10hrs
Comp rest 12hrs

9 or more hrs in 24hrs
Normal rest 12hrs
Reducible to 10hrs
Comp rest 14hrs

If reduced rest could only occur as a result of delays, rather than being scheduled in, then maybe the occasional reduction would have minimal detriment.

Just an on the fly idea, discuss.

 

[XJohXJ]

10 hours rest, non-adjustable for anything whatsoever, IN THE HOTEL. Any BS with the van goes 100% on company time. The crew calls Dx-"we're at the hotel, start the clock," the crew doesn't exit the lobby to the van until at or AFTER the 10 hours are up (to deal with cheap azz hotels that have weird van schedules).

It is important to allow no adjustments whatsoever to the 10 hour minimum. Airlines will learn how to not screw themselves by cutting things too close. Why should the crew always bear the burden, at the cost of safety, of poor airline schedule building?

Nine hours of "rest" is simply not enough to allow for 7-8 hours of sleep. It just doesn't add up. The scientific fact is that people need 7-8 hours of actual sleep to achieve rest.

 

[Mike man]

What is the practical difference between a CDO and a redeye?

You are allowed to sleep.

I say the rules should be simple, fly from 9am to 9pm, two 6 hours shifts a morning and an evening crew...no more of this 0400 report to fly, honestly who wants to fly at 5am???

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Really-You can be on duty for a CDO for 14 hrs (at our company.) Are you saying a red-eye will allow 22hrs?

Remember, the minus sign looks like a plus sign without the uppy-downy part.

 

[legalalien]

You want to see how complicated it can get - try looking at the rules in Europe.

In the UK the CAA calls it CAP 371 - www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap371.pdf

They did some major studies on sleep patterns over many years and came up with this. Don't be surprised if we end up going that way over time.

 

[Lear70]

Sorry Lear, but no CDO's, period. They simply aren't safe. If you insist on keeping them, then you need to reserve absolute right of refusal for those who can't do them but are junior assigned.

I honestly think they aren't safe no matter how much someone likes them. However, it is just plain wrong to give the leftovers to junior guys who can't stand them.

I agree with the junior-assignment issue, but in all fairness...

What about FedEx and UPS?

They often duty on at 7 or 8 p.m., fly one or two legs into the hub, sit for 3 or 4 hours, then fly a leg or two back to out-stations, all within 12-14 hours of duty.

What's the difference between one, continuous, all-night duty period and a CDO?

Just playing Devil's advocate with you. I *HATE* CDO's (I had an email address for a while that was [email protected]), and I like the idea of refusal with zero penalties written into the reg, but you can't eliminate stand-ups with reasonable limitations without also bringing into play all other back-of-the-clock flying like red-eyes, etc.

 

[wms]

According to the USA Today editorial yesterday, it sounds like Babbit is more concerned about commuting. Significant restrictions on commuting could cause irreparable harm to the quality of life of the average commuter. Imagine if the FAA required 12 hours rest in domicile before reporting for a trip.

I don't see how they can effectively address commuting and how they could track it. How do they track someone who decides to drive the three hours to work, or the person who commutes once a year from the family vacation? And how do you address commuting in the midst of a domicile change or base closure?

I get no less rest commuting than if there is a family/college reunion, wedding, prom or convention at the hotel the company puts us up at and the guests decide to stay up all night in the room down the hall.

 

[Erlanger]

The FAA, led by former ALPA MEC Chairman Randy Babbitt, is looking to rewrite the flight time and duty day regulations for FAR 121 carriers.

My questions to this forum is, if you had the authority to write the regulation and implement new flight time and duty day rules, what would they look like.

For me, I would suggest no more than a 12 hour duty day (domestic), 14 hour (international), and current Ultra Long Haul rules, but keep the 8 hour flight time restriction for two pilot aircrews. Comments?

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Champ 42272

There must be no reduced rest. A minimum of 12 hours of rest should be mandatory with no exceptions. 12 hour duty days max too with no exception and 8 hours of flying max daily. And do away with the 100 hr a month/1000 a year nonsense. 30 hour weeks are fine times 52 weeks if one desires to work. Pilot unions could negotiate with their companies that no one will be scheduled for more then 100 hours a month but if the pilot wants to work more then they can work more but it will be the pilots choice.

 

[XJohXJ]

I agree with the junior-assignment issue, but in all fairness...

What about FedEx and UPS?

The difference is, that there are many pilots who would never apply to work at FedEx and UPS, as the majority of flying is CDO flying. I don't care how much they pay, I would never apply there, as I know I could not do the flying.

At passenger airlines, CDO flying is typically a very small percentage of the flying. Some airlines ban CDOs entirely, as they realize how dangerous they are. They are particularly unsafe when crews are forced to flip into and out of them. If an airline insists on having a few of them on the schedule, it is not unreasonable to limit them to those pilots who actually can do them and want to do them.

 

[Lear70]

The difference is, that there are many pilots who would never apply to work at FedEx and UPS, as the majority of flying is CDO flying. I don't care how much they pay, I would never apply there, as I know I could not do the flying.

Oddly, I liked night flying. When I was at Express One, doing USPS Priority Mail freight, I got on the back side of the clock and stayed there, and actually got used to it. To this day, I still sleep better during the day than at night... during the day I can lay down to sleep and be out in less than 5 minutes. At night, takes me half an hour to unwind and fall asleep... weird, but it works for me.

That said, I can't do CDO's. Like you said, it's the flipping back and forth between day and night schedules and the quasi-rest you get with a 4-5 hour break just screws with my rhythm. Fly all night? Fine. Fly a leg or two, sit and get sleepy for 4 or 5 hours, then fly again? Nope, my body can't do it.

At passenger airlines, CDO flying is typically a very small percentage of the flying. Some airlines ban CDOs entirely, as they realize how dangerous they are. They are particularly unsafe when crews are forced to flip into and out of them.

I agree... it's the flipping that makes the operation unsafe.

If an airline insists on having a few of them on the schedule, it is not unreasonable to limit them to those pilots who actually can do them and want to do them.

Yes, but the problem with that is, if you have them on the schedule, then get a rash of sick calls just among the CDO crowd (not uncommon during flu season - rest is essential in a healthy immune system function), and a large percentage of your reserves refuse to fly them, you just disrupted a large portion of your late evening and early morning bank, taking days to recover from the ripple effects.

There are always consequences to changing the rules. Every time we mess with the rules, management seeks to even the balance back in their favor, often with complete disregard for the consequences of the employees forced to deal with it. I don't know what the answer is, but you have to be VERY careful what you ask for sometimes...

 

[pilotyip]

FAA did study in the late 80's early 90's and recommend controlled sleeping in the cockpit was the best way to combat fatigue. They studied the occurrence of micro naps, these are naps that you have no control over, and you nod off. On crews studied who did not have controlled sleeping in the cockpit there were 147 occurrences of micro nap, a number of them during the approach phase. On the crews at foreign airlines that allowed sleeping in the cockpit, there were no occurrences of micro naps during the approach phase. The FAA recommended that controlled napping in the cockpit be adopted as US policy, however Gov’t officials felt that official recognition of sleeping on the job was un-American. Sorry of a mirco-nap. When you fly shifting schedules, you have to plan sleeping otherwise it is uncontrollable. Having one guy rest his eyes for 20 minutes, when other one knows it is going on does wonders for your ability to make that tight approach at the end of the night. However when everyone in the cockpit is asleep, that is scary. We used to fly these night and day patrols around Vietnam, terrible schedule, 12 hr flights, fly a day flight 12 hours off fly a night flight, 24 hrs off fly a day flight. 10 days in a row. One night off the south end of the country, at 0300, nothing is going on, no contacts, no chatter on the intercom, I am fighting off sleep and loosing, a mirco-nap hits and I nod off. I wake up, you do not know if it has been 30 seconds or 30 minutes, we are on the autopilot' at 1,500’, #1 engine in the bag to save fuel, and all 10 of the crew is asleep. Talk about being wide-awake, Where the are we? Now how do you wake up the PPC without letting him know you nodded off also? The F/E was also in the bag. So I called for "Coffee around for my friends" The point is the worse thing about sleeping in the cockpit is letting it sneak up on you, You know it might happen, plan on when it is going to happen, control it.

 

[Raskal]

I'm nowhere near as optimistic as most of you.

1. I was working for a frac operation during the 135 "re-write" which essentially changed nothing but made it a helluva lot more complicated.

2. CDO's are not inherently unsafe. What makes them unsafe is the pilots who get scheduled into them outside of their normal rythym and/or the idiot pilots who choose not to get the rest when they have the chance. While CDO's are great to constantly whine about they are simply the night shift, nothing more.

Increase the transition period so scheduling cannot flip a reserve pilot to a CDO and back as easily and you might have something.

3. I am absolutely all for simple, but that simply won't happen. More likely the new rules will complicate all kinds of stuff but accomplish nothing except the opposite of their intentions. That is the spirit of all new/modern FAA rules.

4. I do expect commuters to be hurt by anything new.

 

[whymeworry?]

Hold hotels accontable for interrupting a crewmembers sleep. Make it a federal offense to knowingly compromise a cockpit crewmembers rest.

Just as harassing a crewmember can be a punishable offense. So too should arrogant hotel employees that place our rooms next to party-rooms on a saturday night or in a construction zone.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Hold hotels accontable for interrupting a crewmembers sleep. Make it a federal offense to knowingly compromise a cockpit crewmembers rest.

Just as harassing a crewmember can be a punishable offense. So too should arrogant hotel employees that place our rooms next to party-rooms on a saturday night or in a construction zone.

That's not something you can regulate very easily and might be better addressed by making it easier for pilots to make fatigue calls.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Change is a must!!!

Domestic/Max duty: 10 hours with 4 leg max. Min rest 10 hours. Plain and simple.

That would make a lot of turboprop pilots happy, I think. It would also cause a lot of sitting around for those super short-haul types.

I think six would be tops since four seems low. It allows more flexibility. Eight would be a ball busting day!!

-13 hr max duty
-9 hr mas flt day
-no reduced rest with 10 hr min rest period @ hotel
-take into circadian rhythm (less legs with earlier starts, stand-ups or red- eye flt)
-drive to hotel not put of rest. Use average drive to time to hotel
-address commuters and a commuter clause (since this is stemming from
the BUF crash and both pilots commute/rest habits prior to accident)
-a no-fault fatigue program (call in fatigued with NO questions or
pressure and same set of rules that apply to calling in sick)

You international types come up with your own regs. I won't comment since I don't have any background in flying legs to/from overseas only flying over there for long periods of time.

 

[145BOSS]

What is a CDO? We don't have them at my airline.

 

[trip]

You all better be careful of what you wish for if you ever want to get home to see your family. This 10 -12hr min in the hotel will most likley result in longer trips, less days off and less pay. Please dont sign me up for more hotel time, just don't abuse the RR rule and give a true 8 behind the door.

 

[labbats]

One more thing....

A fatigue call should be paid out via sick time. How many of us have struggled though because you couldn't afford to lose 4 hours of pay? Unfortunately I have done that and it's not professional.

I don't how the FAA would create a rule for this, but it needs to be addressed.