New FAA rules....tidbits

[densoo]

Schedules we be less efficient and we will spend more time away from home....and then b!tch about how much time we have to spend away from home....

The senior pilots may be able to fly 10+ hour domestic turns during the day without an IRO under the new rules because the new rules are duty-day driven more than flight-hour driven. If your duty day is less than 13 1/4 hours with a start time between 0800 and 1259, you may be good to go. You could get your entire month's flying done in 7 or 8 days and not spend a night out of the country or out of your own bed (ok maybe not such a great idea). Get up, ATL-SEA-ATL, go home. Not bad--for those at the top.

But there will certainly be some very ugly trips built because of this section:

17.2 The minimum rest period which must be provided before undertaking a flying duty period shall be:
a) at least as long as the preceding duty period, or
b) 12 hours,
whichever is the greater.
The room allocated to the crew member must be available for
occupation for a minimum of 10 hours.

 

[73belair]

The bottom schedules at the regionals are already 12 days off....they won't change....It will be the 18 day off schedules at the top that will be killed off by these changes....The 3 day trips will be replaced with 4 day trips....

Sounds like not much would change at ASA!

 

[Benjamin Dover]

True except that at least at SWA , the commuters are protected under a commuter policy and if there home is now at base they do not get that. Also at least at SWA ,we have gate agents that call and squeal on F/As and pilots that where trying to get on the jumpseat and did not get on ( knowing they might call in sick) JMO

wear did you lern how to spel?

 

[waveflyer]

i do hope that someone does give us a voice against unintended consequences.

Personally, i'd rather have much simpler rest rules. The 30/34-7 rules could go away and it would increase the rest i get. And for domestic rules- as long as we could get some value for it- i'd rather fly as much as possible during a restricted duty day. 8 hours of jets on time doesn't make me tired- >12 hour duty days and reversing sleep schedules makes me tired.

 

[Dornier 335]

Do you guys think that with these new changes, we might end up with less days off a month, or simply inefficient schedules ? That might make it worse for commuters.
Don't get me wrong I am still for safety first. Just looking at the side effects on our lives.

Here's from somebody who worked contract for the UK's biggest regional airline (BALPA carrier etc.). The regular line pilots enjoyed minimum overnights, 8-10 off/month, and about 75 hours/month. You had a bit of luxury like warm crew food, but that wore off quite quickly ...

If you have pilot friends over in Euroland, ask 'em about crew rest, days off, block hours/month. I think you'll be surprised.

More crewrest will come at a price IMHO.

 

[pilotyip]

But don't forget

Here's from somebody who worked contract for the UK's biggest regional airline (BALPA carrier etc.). The regular line pilots enjoyed minimum overnights, 8-10 off/month, and about 75 hours/month. You had a bit of luxury like warm crew food, but that wore off quite quickly ...

If you have pilot friends over in Euroland, ask 'em about crew rest, days off, block hours/month. I think you'll be surprised.

More crewrest will come at a price IMHO.

Almost all airports in Europe have no operations bewteen 2200L and 0700L

 

[Dornier 335]

I think it is just Germany that is very restricted with night curfews, except CGN etc.

 

[slaquer5]

wear did you lern how to spel?

ha UT , go vols

 

[Lear70]

Figures... East Tennessee never was known for its academic brilliance...

 

[Ty Webb]

The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts.

YIP- why don't you make a huge contribution to aviation . . . . and retire? If you really believe what you have written, then it's pretty obvious that the synapses in one hemisphere of your brain just aren't firing anymore.

A contract is not a union contract, it's a contract between two parties, and pilot wages have shrunk at most carriers to a mere pittance, yet management pay has tripled, quadrupled, and in some cases, even more, with no metric tying it to performance.

 

[Midge]

YIP- why don't you make a huge contribution to aviation . . . . and retire? If you really believe what you have written, then it's pretty obvious that the synapses in one hemisphere of your brain just aren't firing anymore.

Be careful, he'll send you one of his 2 page love notes telling you how he's been screwed over by the industry, and how he'd work for free. Scumbag operations like usa jet need to go away, and the likes of morons like him will follow suit. He works for a dog ******************** company under the same kind of rules, what more can you expect from a miserable old man like him!
Besides, you would think that retirement would be a pay raise for him when he collects Social Security. Oh yeah, silly me, he'd work for free!

A contract is not a union contract, it's a contract between two parties, and pilot wages have shrunk at most carriers to a mere pittance, yet management pay has tripled, quadrupled, and in some cases, even more, with no metric tying it to performance.

Remember, he's management! Albeit management at some subpar POS operation, he's still management!

 

[SLUF4]

I like most of what I'm reading, but when when duty start when you're coming from home? If it starts in the hotel on an overnight I'd assume it would start when I start my drive to work. I also agree YIP should retire.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

The interesting thing:

IF the new rules are anything like what's been stated, and IF they have the effect of making you work more days (both big IFs), then I see the following:

Less people will commute. While the FAA can't regulate a commute, if you are working more days a month, your life just got harder, and more will simply choose to live in base.

MAYBE it will eliminate some of the deadwood on the seniority lists, such as:

Old guys who are hanging on because they've got a sweet deal. Making them come to work every once in a while may be too much for them.

Guys/gals doing INSANE commutes, like from Europe (seen it), or FL to LA, offline with 2 days off in between (seen it). I mean, dude, if you like LA so much, move there and don't complain about the taxes.

"Part time" pilots, who have businesses on the side, who see coming to work as a GREAT inconvenience (we've all flown with these guys, who see actual flying as a rude interruption to their cell phone conversations).

That's why you see "senior" guys on this forum getting their panties in a twist. "Sure, safety is important to talk about, but, hey, it doesn't apply to ME! I'm man enough to go milk the cows and bail hay on my hobby farm at 0300 (because I'm too cheap to hire someone), and still make my 1200 report for a 12 hour duty day" or "hey, I can work my construction job all day, and I'm good to do my CDO with 5 hours of sleep per night" "err, so you sleep on the weekends?" "Nah, I have my kids on the weekend from the divorce".

I'd be VERY suspect to listen to any of these guys on the forum. They've been pretty much immune from the crappy, fatiguing schedules, and any change would cut into their "good deal" that they get from being a 20 year lifer at the regional. They see any negotiating capital spent on QOL improvements as a waste, because they are already surfing the best schedules, and squawk the loudest to their reps when $0.05 in perdiem is traded for a 0:30 less duty time per day.

Ironically, because of this, we're forced in into the situation where the FAA has to step in and force reasonable rest upon us. As if they know best. We've DEMONSTRATED that, as pilots, we are unable to determine what is safe, and what is not, and take any old scraps that management throws us "just to build time".

It's usually the same guys who squawk loudest about 1) strike assessments, 2) people who "rock the boat" or 3) anyone getting near the little "contractual nitch" they've made for themselves. Strangely enough, if actually ON strike, these self proclaimed "businessmen" are the ones crying the loudest that they can't afford it.

Sorry, some of us actually LIKE to get more than 6 hours sleep per night, have time to relax and maybe even, gosh, digest our food. Some of us actually want to keep our health up, so we can live past 65. Some of us don't LIVE TO WORK.

Nu

 

[Browntothebone]

Heyas,

The interesting thing:

IF the new rules are anything like what's been stated, and IF they have the effect of making you work more days (both big IFs), then I see the following:

Less people will commute. While the FAA can't regulate a commute, if you are working more days a month, your life just got harder, and more will simply choose to live in base.

MAYBE it will eliminate some of the deadwood on the seniority lists, such as:

Old guys who are hanging on because they've got a sweet deal. Making them come to work every once in a while may be too much for them.

Guys/gals doing INSANE commutes, like from Europe (seen it), or FL to LA, offline with 2 days off in between (seen it). I mean, dude, if you like LA so much, move there and don't complain about the taxes.

"Part time" pilots, who have businesses on the side, who see coming to work as a GREAT inconvenience (we've all flown with these guys, who see actual flying as a rude interruption to their cell phone conversations).

That's why you see "senior" guys on this forum getting their panties in a twist. "Sure, safety is important to talk about, but, hey, it doesn't apply to ME! I'm man enough to go milk the cows and bail hay on my hobby farm at 0300 (because I'm too cheap to hire someone), and still make my 1200 report for a 12 hour duty day" or "hey, I can work my construction job all day, and I'm good to do my CDO with 5 hours of sleep per night" "err, so you sleep on the weekends?" "Nah, I have my kids on the weekend from the divorce".

I'd be VERY suspect to listen to any of these guys on the forum. They've been pretty much immune from the crappy, fatiguing schedules, and any change would cut into their "good deal" that they get from being a 20 year lifer at the regional.

It's usually the same guys who squawk loudest about 1) strike assessments, 2) people who "rock the boat" or 3) anyone getting near the little "contractual nitch" they've made for themselves. Strangely enough, if actually ON strike, these self proclaimed "businessmen" are the ones crying the loudest that they can't afford it.

Sorry, some of us actually LIKE to get more than 6 hours sleep per night, have time to relax and maybe even, gosh, digest our food. Some of us actually want to keep our health up, so we can live past 65. Some of us don't LIVE TO WORK.

Nu

Some of us LIVE TO FLY and FLY TO LIVE!

 

[NuGuy]

This message is hidden because Browntothebone is on your ignore list.

I'm sorry, you're going to have to speak louder....

 

[sweptback]

Ironically, because of this, we're forced in into the situation where the FAA has to step in and force reasonable rest upon us. As if they know best. We've DEMONSTRATED that, as pilots, we are unable to determine what is safe, and what is not, and take any old scraps that management throws us "just to build time".

Unfortunately this is the truth. Too many of us have made such poor decisions when it comes to showing up to work rested for too long. Say what you will about the US government, but they don't normally jump in and regulate a business/industry unless they deserve it.

I've learned to stop asking guys about their commutes while sitting on jumpseats because I've heard of some really wacky ones. The best was the guy that woke up at 1:30am to drive 3 hours to make the 5am departure, then started a trip at 7:30. At that point I was very glad that I was in the jumpseat, and not in 11A none the wiser...

 

[pilotyip]

I am semi-retired

YIP- why don't you make a huge contribution to aviation . . . . and retire? If you really believe what you have written, then it's pretty obvious that the synapses in one hemisphere of your brain just aren't firing anymore.

That is why I have so much time to keep track of what is going on here. You are gulity of judging people whose shoes you have never walked in. Have you ever worked in middle management at an airline? Maybe CEO's go out and play golf. The rest of us work 50-60 hours a week mostly 6 days to keep the airline running. On call 24 hrs a day to answer questions, resolve issues and give guidance to crewmembers that do not understand the GOM. My idea of a fun day out of the office is getting out and flying. Flying an airplane for a living is a great job and I am envious of every one of you that gets to do that for a living. As posted before if you have the answers it its your duty to step forward and save the industry.

 

[pilotyip]

Love letters

Remember, he's management! Albeit management at some subpar POS operation, he's still management!

Ty and I exchanged love letters probably long before you discovered FI even existed. I at least I know who Ty is. BTW I take it because of your vast experience you are an expert on POS? Or are you a coward who hides behind screen name and flinges stuff with no responsibility for anything you care to post? I see mil in handlebar, what was it USAF? Pilot, loadmaster? Come share with the rest of us where you got your vast experience or are you a chicken?

 

[densoo]

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