New FAA rules....tidbits

[CapnVegetto]

Ah! FI, where if you don't like a response, you resort to name calling. Such a wonderful tradition. With Internet, if you are $26 RT over a competitor, your competitor gets the fare. And there is always a marginal flyer who will elect not to fly for a $26 raise. BTW I got $500 bonus once in a record year about 9 years ago. With the bonus I made less than most of Captains with my seniority. BTW This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that is, it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about "Airline Management a dying breed", the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. The consumer with internet ticket price access seeking the lowest fare, drives management to always seek lower costs to stay competitive. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time? Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

Perhaps I should have been clearer, but that post was not directed straight at you. After rereading it I realized that it came off that way, and that's not what I meant. However, back to what's at hand. Let's go down your post.....

Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management."

Um.....this is crap. Do you mean to tell me that part 119 of the FAR's REQUIRES that much management? I don't think so. Tons of middle little crap positions could be eliminated that upper management created for their buddies.

Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home)"

This is the biggest pile of bull$hit I've ever seen. Whenever management spews crap like this it makes me want to puke. This is true of the BASE SALARY ONLY. What about bonuses? Stock Options? Perks? Benefits? Retirement? Golden Parachute? Please stop with this stupid pathetic attempt at disinformation. We are not idiots. We can read. Larry Kellner at CAL made over $20 million bucks last year in salary and BONUSES, and we're not even getting into the perks and the insane amount of money that the company is required to contribute to his retirement. Glenn Tilton at UAL made even more, and he is widely regarded as the biggest idiot in airline managment today. What about company cars? Insurance? Paid airport parking? Travel allowance? There's more money that's not even included in the reported compensation AFTER BONUSES. What about all these perks that the middle managers get? How much is paid out in bonuses to all management at large companies? Don't compare a crummy little freight operation in Detroit to a billion dollar legacy carrier. I'm happy you got a $500 bonus. But stop comparing apples to oranges and expecting me to care.

The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about "Airline Management a dying breed", the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. The consumer with internet ticket price access seeking the lowest fare, drives management to always seek lower costs to stay competitive. What is management supposed to do?

So basically what you're telling me is that multiple CEO's of multiple airlines have been trying to do the SAME FCKING THING for a large number of years and IT IS STILL NOT WORKING. Has anyone TRIED raising fares a small amount to offset increased costs? Is there documented proof of this? Nope. Every manager has done the same thing over and over and over and over. Piss all over the labor, squeeze them till they break, and keep the breakeven load factor at 95%. Don't bother trying to offset costs with surcharges, fees, increased fares. The example you gave earlier from SWA was stupid. It's stupid to more than double a fare, but it's not stupid to raise it a small amount at a time. It's not stupid to tack on a small surcharge. You say it won't work? It'll drive customers away? Who gives a $HIT??? Nobody knows!!! There is NOTHING to substantiate this other than some overpaid statistician consultant that is trying to ACT like he knows. There is NO REAL WORLD DATA. Nobody has the balls to try it. What the hell do they have to lose? They are losing BILLIONS, on the verge of bankruptcy. For the love of God, it's time to try something new. The same old crap that you just spewed out isn't working, hasn't been working, and will continue to not work, and everybody knows it. You say people automatically click on the lowest fare on the internet, I say they don't. Fact is neither one of us knows the truth, we just know what WE'D do. There's only one way to find out. You can't prove that I'm wrong. Nobody can. But I can damn sure prove that YOUR management technique sucks. Look at the balance sheet of every legacy airline. There's my proof.

 

[BushwickBill]

question......is this going to affect 135 in any way shape or form?

Hopefully the 20+ out of work airline pilots will quit stopping by the director of operations office to ask for my job.

Good luck fellas. Hope it works out for you.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Do you guys think that with these new changes, we might end up with less days off a month, or simply inefficient schedules ? That might make it worse for commuters.
Don't get me wrong I am still for safety first. Just looking at the side effects on our lives.

Schedules we be less efficient and we will spend more time away from home....and then b!tch about how much time we have to spend away from home....

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, just wait until the sick calls start multiplying exponentially because your days off were cut by 25-30%. We've seen it before, even at the regionals. We were hired under work conditions that give us approximately half the month off at most seniority levels at most companies. You can't have a life being home only 10-12 days a month.

Mental preparedness to do the job is an FAA requirement. If you are stressed about your marriage because you're only home 10-12 days a month instead of 15-17, or getting to see your kids dramatically less-often, then you may not be fit for duty.

They will try their best to minimize the impact of any changes in regs but, in the end, it will be up to us, as pilots, if they start squeezing OUR quality of life to fix THEIR staffing problem, to negotiate trip and duty rigs, including monthly min-days-off, that will protect our QOL.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, just wait until the sick calls start multiplying exponentially because your days off were cut by 25-30%. We've seen it before, even at the regionals. We were hired under work conditions that give us approximately half the month off at most seniority levels at most companies. You can't have a life being home only 10-12 days a month.

Mental preparedness to do the job is an FAA requirement. If you are stressed about your marriage because you're only home 10-12 days a month instead of 15-17, or getting to see your kids dramatically less-often, then you may not be fit for duty.

They will try their best to minimize the impact of any changes in regs but, in the end, it will be up to us, as pilots, if they start squeezing OUR quality of life to fix THEIR staffing problem, to negotiate trip and duty rigs, including monthly min-days-off, that will protect our QOL.

The bottom schedules at the regionals are already 12 days off....they won't change....It will be the 18 day off schedules at the top that will be killed off by these changes....The 3 day trips will be replaced with 4 day trips....

 

[densoo]

Schedules we be less efficient and we will spend more time away from home....and then b!tch about how much time we have to spend away from home....

The senior pilots may be able to fly 10+ hour domestic turns during the day without an IRO under the new rules because the new rules are duty-day driven more than flight-hour driven. If your duty day is less than 13 1/4 hours with a start time between 0800 and 1259, you may be good to go. You could get your entire month's flying done in 7 or 8 days and not spend a night out of the country or out of your own bed (ok maybe not such a great idea). Get up, ATL-SEA-ATL, go home. Not bad--for those at the top.

But there will certainly be some very ugly trips built because of this section:

17.2 The minimum rest period which must be provided before undertaking a flying duty period shall be:
a) at least as long as the preceding duty period, or
b) 12 hours,
whichever is the greater.
The room allocated to the crew member must be available for
occupation for a minimum of 10 hours.

 

[73belair]

The bottom schedules at the regionals are already 12 days off....they won't change....It will be the 18 day off schedules at the top that will be killed off by these changes....The 3 day trips will be replaced with 4 day trips....

Sounds like not much would change at ASA!

 

[Benjamin Dover]

True except that at least at SWA , the commuters are protected under a commuter policy and if there home is now at base they do not get that. Also at least at SWA ,we have gate agents that call and squeal on F/As and pilots that where trying to get on the jumpseat and did not get on ( knowing they might call in sick) JMO

wear did you lern how to spel?

 

[waveflyer]

i do hope that someone does give us a voice against unintended consequences.

Personally, i'd rather have much simpler rest rules. The 30/34-7 rules could go away and it would increase the rest i get. And for domestic rules- as long as we could get some value for it- i'd rather fly as much as possible during a restricted duty day. 8 hours of jets on time doesn't make me tired- >12 hour duty days and reversing sleep schedules makes me tired.

 

[Dornier 335]

Do you guys think that with these new changes, we might end up with less days off a month, or simply inefficient schedules ? That might make it worse for commuters.
Don't get me wrong I am still for safety first. Just looking at the side effects on our lives.

Here's from somebody who worked contract for the UK's biggest regional airline (BALPA carrier etc.). The regular line pilots enjoyed minimum overnights, 8-10 off/month, and about 75 hours/month. You had a bit of luxury like warm crew food, but that wore off quite quickly ...

If you have pilot friends over in Euroland, ask 'em about crew rest, days off, block hours/month. I think you'll be surprised.

More crewrest will come at a price IMHO.

 

[pilotyip]

But don't forget

Here's from somebody who worked contract for the UK's biggest regional airline (BALPA carrier etc.). The regular line pilots enjoyed minimum overnights, 8-10 off/month, and about 75 hours/month. You had a bit of luxury like warm crew food, but that wore off quite quickly ...

If you have pilot friends over in Euroland, ask 'em about crew rest, days off, block hours/month. I think you'll be surprised.

More crewrest will come at a price IMHO.

Almost all airports in Europe have no operations bewteen 2200L and 0700L

 

[Dornier 335]

I think it is just Germany that is very restricted with night curfews, except CGN etc.

 

[slaquer5]

wear did you lern how to spel?

ha UT , go vols

 

[Lear70]

Figures... East Tennessee never was known for its academic brilliance...

 

[Ty Webb]

The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts.

YIP- why don't you make a huge contribution to aviation . . . . and retire? If you really believe what you have written, then it's pretty obvious that the synapses in one hemisphere of your brain just aren't firing anymore.

A contract is not a union contract, it's a contract between two parties, and pilot wages have shrunk at most carriers to a mere pittance, yet management pay has tripled, quadrupled, and in some cases, even more, with no metric tying it to performance.