New Delta vs AirTran

[General Lee]

Latest rumor I seriously heard was that the MD-11s would be pulled from the desert and retrofitted with the cargo mod and used in conjunction with other Skyteam members cargo arms. Apparently a feasibility study was done and a profit of $30 million in the first year was submitted. That is better than having them sit in the desert and rot.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[aroundtheblock]

My bad. I can admit when I'm wrong. When I was at the commuters I didn't try ValueJet Because of pay, safety, and reputation. I assumed after the merger that things were better but I didn't realize they were that much better. I wish the best for those guys there.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that flying for a LCC's are what we dreamed of as a kid, not for a final career

I'm afraid times have changed. From the perspective of someone who still IS a kid about to take the first step on to the ladder of becomming an airline pilot, I would much rather have a long and dedicated career to an airline like AirTran or Southwest making a reasonable salary with reasonable benefits and a good retirement plan than to be miserable with a struggling major airline that is having economic problems and has very low morale. In the end its not the huge salaries and abundant benefits that will bring happyness, its being able to work with a group of people with high morale that love what they do, and are willing to work together as a team to accomplish their goals. While there are still many people with this attitude at the major carriers, there are those like the Captain mentioned above that ruin it for everyone.

 

[FLB717]

Well to make a point that I hope aroundtheblock, General, Me, FBC, Fins and the others can all agree is: Thank God I don't have a real (ie cubicle) Job.

 

[furloughed]

deleted, supposed to be a PM.

 

[skykid]

Citrus Jockey, interesting how much things have changed in a few short years. 150K/year, 14-19 days off, 11% B-fund, AND a nice A fund used to describe a medium seniority First Officer at a few airlines, not a 9 year captain. Maybe the industry can sustain captain level expectations at this same level, minus the A plan of course, but I doubt it. My guess is there are 1000s of pilots willing to be captains of 737/717/Buses at less than 100K/year.

Skyboy1981, I agree with your post. My question is, when you obtain your dream captain job at 150K/year, 10.5% B fund, 14-19 days off, great job with a fantastic company, how do you respond to the guy who will captain your size airplane for 80K and 12 days off? He's a low time CFI now, but he's out there. For him, 80K and job security at a great place to work with new airplanes sounds pretty awesome. Plus once his new airline grows, wages will go up, right?

As a side note, in my opinion the defined pension plans are gone, at Delta and all the majors. Some will go quicker than others, some will go in varying degrees, but you can't pay millions or billions to these funds when the competition doesn't. Generally speaking the majors already have the 401K B type plans now in addition to the defined pensions.

 

[FDJ2]

Latest rumor I seriously heard was that the MD-11s would be pulled from the desert and retrofitted with the cargo mod and used in conjunction with other Skyteam members cargo arms.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Come on General, everyone knows there's no $money$ in cargo. (tic)

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Skyboy1981, I agree with your post. My question is, when you obtain your dream captain job at 150K/year, 10.5% B fund, 14-19 days off, great job with a fantastic company, how do you respond to the guy who will captain your size airplane for 80K and 12 days off? He's a low time CFI now, but he's out there. For him, 80K and job security at a great place to work with new airplanes sounds pretty awesome. Plus once his new airline grows, wages will go up, right?

I get your point, and you're right to a certain extent. Airtran and especially SWA aren't necessarily full of just young guys willing to work for lower costs though. I know SWA particularly has a group of pilots with just as much age and experience in the airline industry as any other major airline. The difference at SWA though is that, even though the potential isn't really there to ever make $250 to $300k a year....they are happy with where they are and the morale is high. That, to me, makes all the difference in the world.

 

[FL717]

For some reason (around here at least) everyone seems to miss several of many major flaws in the whole salary debate... and here is a few:

1. There are many..... MANY airlines that had salaries that were absurdly(sp?) low... i.e. Vanguard, Midway, Legend, Access Air, etc. that never turned sustainable profit and failed, hence proving that Pilot salaries neither make or break an airline.

2. During the late nineties when some of these airlines I mentioned including others I have not mentioned (SWA) were "dragging" the industry down by accepting low wages, and in some cases PFT... Delta, United American, Northwest etc all signed industry leading contracts without so much as a second thought to what these others were paying their pilots.

Why is it suddenly an issue to you all now? I'll tell you why, it is a quick and easy "fixed" cost tool for management to correct YEARS or poor money mangement, and it is incredibly simplistic minded for some of you to vent on this forum as if this is all the fault of LCC pilots.

AND finally 3. Southwest has been around for 30 years. They haven't stopped the Majors from banking trillions... yes TRILLIONS of dollars during the last 30 years.

Where's Waldo I ask?

BTW - I want more money too!!! But your companies money problems are NOT as a result of the LCC salaries and if you think they are, then I have some property I would love to sell you.

 

[skykid]

FL717, I'm not blaming anybody, I'm just sharing my opinion that compensation will continue to look worse for this industry.

 

[Dennis Miller]

Why do Americans drive Foreign cars, shop at Non-Union Wal-Mart and flock to many LCC's? It's the product stupid! Basic economics, put out a product that has a superior experience with an inferior cost and you make money. Have we all not figured this out yet?

 

[BuckO]

As far as I can see all the DAL people should be affraid of the RJs and not Citrus. The Barbies are going to take the mainline jobs B4 the guys across the field.BuckO

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Good thing I am on the 'widebody' of the ASA fleet. And no, I don't think "we" are going to be taking any mainline jobs. DL needs to be afraid of management, THEY are the ones holding the cards. I think alot of people who are on these boards seem to think they are in the 'know' about what happens across the street. Unless there is some pretty high ups at DL cruising here, (not likely) we are all just flapping our gums with our 'opinions' and thoughts. WE, (Mainline, ASA, and CMR pilots on here don't know jack about the 'plan'. As have said by managment, that is closely guarded information. Until it is public info, all said here is pretty moot.
Just a thought.

 

[Ty Webb]

I think what Bucko is trying to say is that the threat to Delta mainline jobs is in their redeployment by DAL management, not from AirTran. I don't think it was intended to be a dig at ASA or Comair guys.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Agreed. I didn't mean for my reply to sound like that. Apologies to BuckO.

 

[mnboyev]

Well, Ive listened to this forum for a while... Delta is changing, as are all the other Legacy carriers... Definitely the 'economic condition ' is hurting everyone... Its a bummer... who wants to lose ground ... nobody.

I hear the banter from LCC and Major dudes ... I heard it in PHL last week on ground cntrl, I heard on the escalator to E, I heard it trying to get to our gate on Ramp 4..... It is funny for a about a second... in the end it is eroding our profession into a scene that resembles angry New York cabbies.

LCC's offer a different product ... period. When you ride Delta... it is different than AirTran... period... Leisure pax are much different than Business pax.. period.. Oh the darn strollers and wheel chairs...

So we can argue about who is hauling the rich folks and who is hauling the po folks... But really that is just crap... And then we can get into who is a better pilot... Major or LCC ... and the crap about well they only got that job because they couldnt make to a major... bla bla bla.

Based on what I have seen, pilots from the majors arent any better than the commuter guys, LCC guys, or banner towing flip flop sporting college kids.. They were just making more dough because their union negotiated contracts for 60 plus years. Thats just how it works...

I am 39... I will never get into the big dough flying.period .. If I was lucky enough to go to one of the big majors, I wouldl never get beyond a narrow body capt seat because of my age.... But I have fun at work, like the folks I fly with, and enjoy a decent schedule with enough dough to have a pretty nice lifestyle... So how is this bringing down the industry ?? Thats like saying banner towing is bringing down pilot wages?? Crazy thinking..

Anyway, in a long winded kinda way... I am tired of the unprofessional banter that is slung in the 'hallways' at work... Please, everybody, we should be working to further our profession and not continue to look down or tear down our fellow pilots.. Do you bad mouth the little guy practicing approaches at Gulfport... Do you bad mouth the 767 cause ground put him in front of you, Do you look the other way while walking down the concourse? This is all crap... Take the high road and make it the great job that it is... period ...

I was working Eagle in MIA quite a few years ago.. Tried to commute home on United... Didnt get on... One week later same flight same United Capt... 777... bought lowly me an ice cream cone and made sure I got on, to get home... What a good guy... Why did he give a rip about me? Because I was a fellow pilot... He was passing the profession on to me and we should be doing the same.

Sorry for my passion, pain and angst..... Eric VanValkenburg 717 FO

Delta is a great carrier, AirTran is a great carrier... Both are trying to make money and both will be around for a long, long, time.

Dont be managements puppet and sling the rhetoric that they would like us all to believe.. Take the high road and protect and lift our profession as best you can .. Please

 

[FL717]

Hey mnboyev.... I just left a voice mail message on your cell phone. I got a new cell phone number since I moved. Make sure you extract my new phone number before you delete the message.

Oh... to the rest of you as far as this thread goes..... what he said!

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Very well said FL717 and mnboyev. Good job.

 

[Dave Siegel]

Dont be managements puppet and sling the rhetoric that they would like us all to believe.. Take the high road and protect and lift our profession as best you can .. Please

Hi everyone! It's Dave. Once again, this negative dialogue against management simply has no place in this industry. Don't make me leave my cozy beach resort to come up there! Management absolutely needs a few good puppets, and you overpaid and underworked airline pilots are the obvious choice!

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Hi everyone! It's Dave. Once again, this negative dialogue against management simply has no place in this industry. Don't make me leave my cozy beach resort to come up there! Management absolutely needs a few good puppets, and you overpaid and underworked airline pilots are the obvious choice!

LOL. Glad someone has a sense of humor around here still.